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Archae Solenhofen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Again you are referring to materials.
> > Again that is not the issue.
>
> Ya I know we got that even when the advancyness is
> made of painted plaster someone spatulaed out 70
> years ago.....

Is this a communication breakdown?

>
> So now we're back to they can't carve limestone
> again. Calcite (again what that jug is made out
> of) is slightly harder than you
> fingernail......... Why you imagine there is an
> insurmountable problem for Stocks' methods with
> limestone, please enlighten us? It's one step up
> from gypsum and 2 steps up from talc and those
> steps are not that high..... both of which the AEs
> made stone vessels out of. Can the AEs even carve
> those?

Communication breakdown???

>
> BTW, Petrie (1932)'s got a cross-section of a
> Class V jug made of travertine (they all appear to
> be made of that, limestone after all is the most
> common only seconded to gypsum for stone vessels
> making followed by that
> "schist"/metasiltstone/"slate" stuff the fringe
> claim is 'too hard" and "too brittle" to
> carve..... all of these are in the beginners
> section of your local library for softrock
> carving) it's just got the core tube about 2/3 of
> the way down. No that's not to say that others are
> not hollowed out they clearly are from the
> back-lighted ones I have seen in the lit, but some
> are not.........

OKAY what about the one's that are hollowed out? How did they position and manipulate the tools?

>
> Petrie, W.M.F. (c1977 (1932)) The funeral
> furniture of Egypt: with stone and metal vases.
> Aris & Phillips, Wiltshire, 65 p.




>
> >Granite? That's interesting, with an overall
> diameter
> >of 20cm. Can you estimate the neck diameter?
>
> Looks to be about half from my image of it and the
> inside don't look like it is anything close to
> that imagined fringeism of perfectly,
> symmetrically, machined cause it's balanced beyond
> today's technology, sans any notice of the 2
> handle lugs, 2 handles, and the copper fittings,
> "constant wall thickness of only a few
> mm".........

I can see the thickness of the rim in the photo. It's no more than 1cm which is a few mm
Yes it does have two lugs, which eliminates the use of any kind of lathe.


>
> >>smaller andesite porphyry vessel are too
> difficult
> >>for the AEs to carve other than it takes longer
> >>than travertine grinding?
>
> >It that a question or a statement?
>
> Considering that the minerals in the andesite
> porphyry are altered to fine-grained softer ones I
> already assumed it was not going to be taken as a
> question when I asked it...... so I guess it is a
> statement thus no answer.
>
> >In both cases the
> >feldspar phenocrysts (just like the large
> calcite
> >crystals in the travertine examples you keep
> >presenting) have been sectioned by grinding and
> >polishing...........
>
> >You seem to know how this form was manufactured.
>
> Well, as a result of the felspars we know it was
> not pored from a bucket like some here
> imagine..... no one other than the fringe is
> asserting the manufacture of these were fast and
> easy (which is not consistent with the fact that
> granite vessels are not that common compared to
> the easier to carve rocks like that limestone
> stuff). One can work granite (and the softer
> andesite porphyry) with a piece of quartz stuck on
> the end of a toothpick by the power of crayon
> colouring alone.

Who are you arguing with?? Technique not materials .. HOW DID THE POSITION AND USE THE TOOLS?


You're telling me you cannot
> think up plausible methods of making these vessels
> with the known AE technology level?

Yes..
You are the expert so I'm asking you..
How did they do it?
How did they carve the undercut?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08-May-16 20:53 by Jon Ellison.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Creighton persists 3901 Martin Stower 30-Apr-16 23:26
Some may also be wondering . . . 703 Martin Stower 30-Apr-16 23:37
Re: Creighton persists 853 Frank D 30-Apr-16 23:41
On a natural reading . . . 861 Martin Stower 01-May-16 00:44
Re: On a natural reading . . . 626 Hanslune 01-May-16 05:25
Re: On a natural reading . . . 716 Martin Stower 01-May-16 13:53
Re: On a natural reading . . . 627 Hanslune 01-May-16 14:42
And who will guard the Guards? 635 LonelyAngel 09-May-16 09:08
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 807 Origyptian 09-May-16 12:47
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 654 DScribr 09-May-16 13:21
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 770 LonelyAngel 09-May-16 13:48
Re: And who will read his book? 584 DScribr 10-May-16 02:05
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 621 Martin Stower 16-May-16 23:01
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 666 Martin Stower 09-May-16 19:00
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 641 Corpuscles 09-May-16 20:07
Re: And who will accept the facts? 623 DScribr 10-May-16 02:21
Re: And who will accept the facts? 604 Corpuscles 10-May-16 03:01
Re: And who will accept the facts? 553 DScribr 10-May-16 03:30
Re: And who will accept the facts? 571 Corpuscles 10-May-16 03:47
Re: And who will accept the facts? 490 DScribr 10-May-16 13:32
Re: And who will accept the facts? 466 Harte 10-May-16 20:53
Re: And who will accept the facts? 582 Origyptian 10-May-16 21:14
Change Of Tune!?! 721 DScribr 11-May-16 01:54
The certainty of contamination 596 DScribr 11-May-16 01:44
Re: And who will accept the facts? 577 Frank D 11-May-16 23:40
Re: And who will accept the facts? 542 DScribr 12-May-16 02:52
Re: And who will guard the Henhouse??? 574 DScribr 10-May-16 02:11
Re: And who will guard the Henhouse??? 679 LonelyAngel 10-May-16 12:40
Re: And who will guard the Henhouse??? 566 Origyptian 10-May-16 13:16
Re: And who will guard the Henhouse??? 623 DScribr 10-May-16 13:35
Re: On reading about 'proof' 530 DScribr 07-May-16 15:56
Re: On reading about 'proof' 582 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 16:39
Re: Creighton persists 886 drrayeye 01-May-16 15:10
Re: Creighton persists 712 Martin Stower 01-May-16 16:21
Re: Attack!....Attack! 619 Thunderbird 01-May-16 22:47
Re: Attack!....Attack! 713 Martin Stower 01-May-16 23:19
Re: Attack!....Attack! 690 Hanslune 02-May-16 01:26
Re: Attack!....Attack! 687 Martin Stower 02-May-16 20:25
Re: Attack!....Attack! 706 Hanslune 02-May-16 21:12
Re: Creighton persists 735 cladking 02-May-16 00:22
Re: Creighton persists 685 Martin Stower 02-May-16 01:11
Re: Creighton persists 613 cladking 02-May-16 01:31
Re: Creighton persists 658 Martin Stower 02-May-16 20:03
Re: Creighton persists 632 cladking 03-May-16 00:50
Re: Creighton persists 603 Hanslune 03-May-16 06:00
Re: Creighton persists 577 Merrell 03-May-16 07:34
Re: Creighton persists 810 Origyptian 03-May-16 11:46
Re: Creighton persists 714 Martin Stower 03-May-16 14:01
Re: Creighton persists 786 Origyptian 03-May-16 21:55
Re: Creighton persists 688 Martin Stower 03-May-16 22:54
Re: Creighton persists 695 Origyptian 04-May-16 03:49
Re: Creighton persists 705 Thanos5150 03-May-16 18:26
Re: Creighton persists 686 Origyptian 03-May-16 21:09
Re: Creighton persists 744 Martin Stower 03-May-16 22:56
Re: Creighton persists 659 Origyptian 04-May-16 03:52
Re: Creighton persists 623 Martin Stower 04-May-16 17:54
Re: Creighton persists 611 Origyptian 04-May-16 21:06
Re: Creighton persists 930 Martin Stower 04-May-16 22:28
Re: Creighton persists 633 Harte 06-May-16 10:17
Re: Creighton persists 598 Origyptian 06-May-16 13:04
Re: Creighton persists 549 Martin Stower 06-May-16 15:35
Re: Creighton persists 613 Harte 06-May-16 16:50
Re: Creighton persists 595 Jon Ellison 06-May-16 17:33
Re: Creighton persists 532 Audrey 06-May-16 20:00
Re: Creighton persists 849 Jon Ellison 06-May-16 20:25
Re: Creighton persists 612 Jon Ellison 06-May-16 20:48
Re: Creighton persists 654 Archae Solenhofen 06-May-16 22:30
Re: Creighton persists 556 Jon Ellison 06-May-16 23:37
Re: Creighton persists 588 Martin Stower 07-May-16 00:02
Re: Creighton persists 586 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 00:33
Re: Creighton persists 670 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 01:07
Re: Creighton persists 598 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 01:55
Re: Creighton persists 457 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 02:03
Re: Creighton persists 743 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 05:06
Re: Creighton persists 492 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 10:39
Re: Creighton persists 528 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 16:38
Re: Creighton persists 563 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 17:03
Some "Engineer" 940 DScribr 08-May-16 20:54
Re: Some "Engineer" 559 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 21:00
Re: Some "Engineer" 650 Audrey 08-May-16 21:15
Re: Some "Engineer" 648 DScribr 08-May-16 21:33
Re: Some "Engineer" 616 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 21:44
Re: Creighton persists 646 Audrey 07-May-16 02:09
Re: Creighton persists 571 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 02:16
Re: Creighton persists 589 Luminescence 08-May-16 01:52
Another "Impossibility" 588 DScribr 08-May-16 21:36
Re: Creighton persists 589 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 02:23
Re: Creighton persists 716 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 05:16
my mysterious balls 656 Audrey 07-May-16 06:42
Re: Creighton persists 501 Origyptian 07-May-16 15:51
Re: Creighton persists 536 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 17:12
Re: Creighton persists 473 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 17:23
Re: Creighton persists 601 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 17:53
Re: Creighton persists 535 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 18:40
Re: Creighton persists 566 Audrey 07-May-16 19:30
Re: Creighton persists 531 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 20:11
Re: Creighton persists 546 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 00:06
Re: Creighton persists 604 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 01:23
Re: Creighton persists 535 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 09:48
Re: Creighton persists 474 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 11:34
Re: Creighton persists 514 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 17:32
Re: Creighton persists 515 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 20:07
Re: Creighton persists 595 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 20:24
Re: Creighton persists 498 Origyptian 09-May-16 02:37
Re: Creighton persists 456 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 10:32
Re: Creighton persists 556 Origyptian 09-May-16 12:58
Re: Creighton persists 603 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 13:25
Re: Creighton persists 489 Origyptian 09-May-16 13:30
Re: Creighton persists 517 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 13:33
Re: Creighton persists 512 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 20:44
Re: Creighton persists 554 Origyptian 08-May-16 15:31
Re: Creighton persists 457 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 16:17
Failure to acept the facts persists 545 DScribr 08-May-16 22:11
Re: Failure to acept the facts persists 609 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 22:26
Re: Failure to acept the facts persists 567 DScribr 09-May-16 00:29
Re: Creighton persists 523 Audrey 08-May-16 17:37
Re: Creighton persists 601 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 18:30
Re: Creighton persists 559 Audrey 08-May-16 18:52
Re: Creighton persists 630 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 20:13
Re: Creighton persists 520 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 20:20
Re: Creighton persists 557 Audrey 08-May-16 20:35
Re: Creighton persists 574 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 22:05
Re: Creighton persists 524 Audrey 08-May-16 23:05
Re: Creighton persists 518 Archae Solenhofen 09-May-16 00:11
Re: Creighton persists 586 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 00:35
Re: Creighton persists 477 Corpuscles 09-May-16 01:28
Re: Creighton persists 594 Origyptian 09-May-16 17:15
Re: Creighton persists 539 Corpuscles 09-May-16 19:40
Re: Creighton persists 493 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 20:02
Re: Creighton persists 547 Origyptian 09-May-16 21:25
Re: Creighton persists 641 Martin Stower 09-May-16 22:16
Re: Creighton persists 581 Origyptian 09-May-16 23:06
Re: Creighton persists 594 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 23:33
Re: Creighton persists 548 Martin Stower 09-May-16 23:41
Re: Creighton persists 589 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 23:45
Re: Creighton persists 618 Martin Stower 09-May-16 23:58
Re: Creighton persists 517 Jon Ellison 10-May-16 01:05
Re: Creighton persists 553 Martin Stower 10-May-16 19:32
Re: Creighton persists 600 Origyptian 10-May-16 20:31
Re: Creighton persists 569 Martin Stower 10-May-16 20:45
What Standards? 471 DScribr 10-May-16 02:37
Re: Creighton persists 469 Jon Ellison 10-May-16 14:45
Re: Creighton persists 505 Origyptian 10-May-16 14:53
Re: Creighton persists 574 Jon Ellison 10-May-16 15:00
Re: Creighton persists 590 Audrey 11-May-16 00:53
Re: Creighton persists 633 Martin Stower 11-May-16 01:43
Also . . . 563 Martin Stower 11-May-16 09:19
Re: Creighton persists 569 Origyptian 11-May-16 03:14
Re: Creighton persists 728 Martin Stower 11-May-16 10:17
Re: Creighton persists 650 Corpuscles 11-May-16 10:53
Re: Vessel manufacture 741 Thanos5150 11-May-16 17:24
Re: Vessel manufacture 490 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 18:11
Re: Vessel manufacture 745 Thanos5150 11-May-16 19:30
Re: Vessel manufacture 496 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:02
Re: Vessel manufacture 456 Thanos5150 11-May-16 20:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 510 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 20:36
Re: Vessel manufacture 541 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:58
Re: Vessel manufacture 488 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 21:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 489 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:18
Re: Vessel manufacture 531 Origyptian 11-May-16 21:35
Re: Vessel manufacture 501 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:49
Re: Vessel manufacture 431 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 21:58
Re: Vessel manufacture 488 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:02
Re: Vessel manufacture 562 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:25
Re: Vessel manufacture 444 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:19
Re: Vessel manufacture 473 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:03
Re: Vessel manufacture 594 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:15
Re: Vessel manufacture 511 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 497 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 21:41
Re: Vessel manufacture 464 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:41
Re: Vessel manufacture 462 Thanos5150 11-May-16 20:55
Re: Vessel manufacture 478 Origyptian 11-May-16 21:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 424 Audrey 11-May-16 21:12
Re: Vessel manufacture 471 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:20
Re: Vessel manufacture 522 Origyptian 11-May-16 21:44
Re: Vessel manufacture 492 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:58
Re: Vessel manufacture 520 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:23
Re: Vessel manufacture 507 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:41
Re: Vessel manufacture 580 Audrey 11-May-16 21:56
Re: Vessel manufacture 457 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:08
Re: Vessel manufacture 444 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:35
Re: Vessel manufacture 459 Audrey 11-May-16 22:40
Re: Vessel manufacture 450 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:44
Re: Vessel manufacture 482 Audrey 11-May-16 23:13
Re: Vessel manufacture 477 Thanos5150 12-May-16 00:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 436 Corpuscles 12-May-16 00:41
Re: Vessel manufacture 515 Thanos5150 12-May-16 01:13
Re: Vessel manufacture 522 Corpuscles 12-May-16 02:32
Re: Vessel manufacture 713 Thanos5150 12-May-16 06:10
Re: Vessel manufacture 560 Audrey 12-May-16 01:22
Re: Vessel manufacture 502 Thanos5150 12-May-16 01:52
Re: Vessel manufacture 473 Origyptian 12-May-16 02:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 400 Thanos5150 12-May-16 02:52
Re: Vessel manufacture 478 Martin Stower 12-May-16 21:22
Re: Vessel manufacture 484 Jon Ellison 12-May-16 02:01
Re: Vessel manufacture 426 Origyptian 12-May-16 02:20
Re: Vessel manufacture 472 Martin Stower 13-May-16 00:25
Re: Vessel manufacture 618 Martin Stower 12-May-16 13:23
Re: Vessel manufacture 522 Harte 12-May-16 22:15
Re: Vessel manufacture 463 Martin Stower 12-May-16 23:38
Re: Vessel manufacture 461 Thanos5150 13-May-16 00:28
Re: Vessel manufacture 461 Audrey 11-May-16 20:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 716 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:35
Re: Vessel manufacture 403 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:19
Re: Vessel manufacture 466 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 20:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 493 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:39
Re: Vessel manufacture 495 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 20:42
Re: Vessel manufacture 438 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:48
Re: Vessel manufacture 611 Corpuscles 11-May-16 23:52
Re: Vessel manufacture 599 Thanos5150 12-May-16 05:39
Re: Vessel manufacture 445 Corpuscles 12-May-16 08:12
Re: Vessel manufacture 454 DScribr 12-May-16 03:08
Re: Vessel manufacture 698 Audrey 11-May-16 19:55
Re: Vessel manufacture 520 Thanos5150 11-May-16 20:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 617 Origyptian 11-May-16 19:58
Re: Vessel manufacture 417 Corpuscles 11-May-16 23:25
Re: Vessel manufacture 469 Thanos5150 12-May-16 01:06
Re: Vessel manufacture 537 Audrey 12-May-16 01:47
Re: Vessel manufacture 440 Thanos5150 12-May-16 02:18
Re: Vessel manufacture 466 Martin Stower 13-May-16 00:03
Re: Vessel manufacture 539 Origyptian 12-May-16 02:34
Re: Vessel manufacture 482 Corpuscles 12-May-16 03:12
Re: Vessel manufacture 486 Thanos5150 12-May-16 04:05
Re: Vessel manufacture 465 Origyptian 12-May-16 04:23
Re: Vessel manufacture 525 Corpuscles 12-May-16 04:31
Re: Vessel manufacture 470 Audrey 12-May-16 06:44
Re: Vessel manufacture 430 Origyptian 12-May-16 04:16
Re: Vessel manufacture 557 Corpuscles 12-May-16 04:52
Re: Vessel manufacture 492 Origyptian 12-May-16 13:35
Re: Vessel manufacture 478 Martin Stower 12-May-16 21:49
Re: Vessel manufacture 478 Origyptian 12-May-16 22:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 477 Martin Stower 12-May-16 23:15
Re: Vessel manufacture 585 Origyptian 13-May-16 03:46
Re: Vessel manufacture 469 Martin Stower 13-May-16 18:31
Re: Vessel manufacture 396 DScribr 12-May-16 02:58
Re: Creighton persists 470 Martin Stower 12-May-16 11:42
Re: Creighton persists 452 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 11:00
Re: Creighton persists 483 Audrey 11-May-16 15:55
Re: Creighton persists 509 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 16:39
Re: Creighton persists 524 Audrey 09-May-16 01:44
Re: Creighton persists 571 Merrell 08-May-16 20:16
Re: Creighton persists 550 Audrey 08-May-16 20:36
Re: Creighton persists 576 Merrell 08-May-16 21:07
Re: Creighton persists 454 Audrey 08-May-16 21:10
Re: Creighton persists 557 Merrell 08-May-16 21:38
Re: Creighton persists 517 Audrey 08-May-16 21:59
Re: Creighton persists 508 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 21:27
Re: Creighton persists 521 Audrey 08-May-16 21:34
Re: Creighton persists 411 Origyptian 09-May-16 03:07
Re: Creighton persists 546 Audrey 09-May-16 03:18
Re: Creighton persists 479 Origyptian 09-May-16 04:06
Re: Creighton persists 529 Audrey 09-May-16 05:07
Re: Creighton persists 542 Origyptian 09-May-16 13:06
Re: Creighton persists 540 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 12:00
Re: Creighton persists 426 Origyptian 09-May-16 13:17
Re: Creighton persists 503 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 13:29
Re: Creighton persists 479 DScribr 09-May-16 13:30
Re: Creighton persists 504 Origyptian 09-May-16 02:09
Re: Creighton persists 503 Origyptian 09-May-16 01:49
Re: Creighton persists 575 Origyptian 08-May-16 02:13
Re: Creighton persists 324 Origyptian 08-May-16 02:07
Re: Drill baby drill.... 594 Thunderbird 08-May-16 02:41
Re: Drill baby drill.... 752 Origyptian 08-May-16 03:23
Re: Drill baby drill.... 618 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 11:38
We've been thru this 100 times. 473 DScribr 09-May-16 00:41
Re: We've been thru this 100 times. 639 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 01:00
Re: Drill baby drill.... 765 Harte 08-May-16 19:35
Re: Drill baby drill.... 540 DScribr 09-May-16 00:45
Re: Drill baby drill.... 555 Origyptian 09-May-16 02:14
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 605 Thunderbird 08-May-16 19:41
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 575 Audrey 08-May-16 20:49
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 559 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 20:55
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 451 Audrey 08-May-16 21:09
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 444 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 21:14
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 539 Audrey 08-May-16 21:22
Too much interpretation 485 DScribr 09-May-16 00:36
Re: Too much interpretation 451 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 00:41
Refusal Persists 465 DScribr 09-May-16 00:21
Re: Creighton persists 452 Audrey 07-May-16 02:02
Re: Creighton persists 551 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 02:55
Re: Creighton persists 563 Audrey 07-May-16 04:14
Re: Creighton persists 524 Origyptian 06-May-16 18:21
Re: Creighton persists 455 Audrey 06-May-16 19:03
Re: Creighton persists 611 Martin Stower 07-May-16 01:00
Re: Creighton persists 509 Origyptian 06-May-16 20:12
Logic rarely persists here. 583 DScribr 08-May-16 20:40
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 530 Corpuscles 08-May-16 21:51
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 551 Origyptian 09-May-16 03:20
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 509 Harte 09-May-16 21:18
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 529 DScribr 10-May-16 02:23
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 674 Corpuscles 10-May-16 03:11
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 551 DScribr 10-May-16 03:38
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 578 Corpuscles 10-May-16 03:54
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 505 DScribr 10-May-16 13:42
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 585 Harte 10-May-16 10:03
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 507 Jon Ellison 10-May-16 10:06
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 443 Origyptian 10-May-16 11:28