> From a global perspective I call the Mediterranean
> region 'local'.
> Evidence has been found of much
> much larger catastrophic events affecting that
> area long before 6000 bc.
Of course, but which one was it that inspired the flood myths.
> The 'Mediterranean
> event' is miniscule in comparison and is, I think,
> an attempt by a dying school of thought to keep up
> with the new evidence.
Considering most of the scientific evidence regarding catastrophic events c. 6,000BC in the Mediterranean region have been discovered in the last 20yrs I fail to see how this is the case. If anything I see a "new school" of thought emerging.
> But I see no similarity between Australia's myths
> and Gilgamesh, other than they both contain
> "water". Other than that, they are completely
> different and the Aborigines are known to be what,
> 70,000 yrs old?
More like 50,000yrs. Some argue as much as 65,000. Recent genetic studies suggest they were part of a group that left Africa as early as 75,000yrs ago though when they actually got to Australia is unknown. Regardless:
Indigineous Australian stories and sea-level change.
Oral traditions, especially contrasted with written history, are typically portrayed as inaccurate. Commenting on native title claims in the US, Simic (2000) made the specific claim: “As a general rule, unwritten legends that refer to events more than 1,000 years in the past contain little, if any, historical truth”. So can preliterate Indigenous languages tell us anything factual about the distant past, or does the transmission of historical facts become inevitably corrupted? Changes in sea levels around the Australian coast are now well established. Marine geographers can now point to specific parts of the Australian coast and know with some confidence what the sea levels were at a particular time before the present. This paper reports on a substantial body of Australian Aboriginal stories that appear to represent genuine and unique observations of post-glacial increases in sea level, at time depths that range from about 13,400–7,500 years BP [11,450-5,550BC]. This paper makes the case that endangered Indigenous languages can be repositories for factual knowledge across time depths far greater than previously imagined, forcing a rethink of the ways in which such traditions have been dismissed.
It stands to reason any culture affected by these events, or others that many happend after 6,000BC as well, would have stories about it, however, and the point I am making, is that there is a core story, the oldest version being Mesopotamian, whose similarities leave little other conclusion than they must have had a common origin that was diffused after the fact. What makes the Mesopotamian story the most relevant is that it is here civilization as we know it begins which assuming they were recording as best they remembered actual events then what they have to say about it is of paramount importance not only to when it might have happened but what came before and after.
> When you boil the tales down to
> what might be a core of truth, there really is no
> similarity in how the event happened and what the
> outcome was.
I disagree as it is relevant to separate them by geography, time, and what they actually say which regardless, ultimately why they do appear derived from a single original tale, is most are in fact too similar to be coincidence of an independently shared event.
The African tribe Maasai's Flood Myth:
Once upon a time the rivers began to flood. Then god told two people to get into a ship. He told them to take lots of seed and to take lots of animals. The water of the flood eventually covered the mountains. Finally the flood stopped. Then one of the men, wanting to know if the water had dried up let a dove loose. The dove returned. Later he let loose a hawk which did not return. Then the men left the boat and took the animals and the seeds with them.
People have become rebellious. Atum said he will destroy all he made and return the earth to the Primordial Water which was its original state. Atum will remain, in the form of a serpent, with Osiris. [Faulkner, plate 30] (Unfortunately the version of the papyrus with the flood story is damaged and unclear).
When the population became too great after 900 years, Ahura Mazda warned Yima that destruction was coming in the form of winter, frost, and subsequent melting of the snow. He instructed Yima to build a vara, a large square enclosure, in which to keep specimens of small and large cattle, human beings, dogs, birds, red flaming fires, plants and foodstuffs, two of every kind. The men and cattle he brought in were to be the finest on earth. Within the enclosure, men passed the happiest of lives, with each year seeming like a day.
Heaven and Earth were great giants, and Heaven lay upon the Earth so that their children were crowded between them, and the children and their mother were unhappy in the darkness. The boldest of the sons led his brothers in cutting up Heaven into many pieces. From his skull they made the firmament. His spilling blood caused a great flood which killed all humans except a single pair, who were saved in a ship made by a beneficent Titan. The waters settled in hollows to become the oceans. The son who led in the mutilation of Heaven was a Titan and became their king, but the Titans and gods hated each other, and the king titan was driven from his throne by his son, who was born a god. That Titan at last went to the land of the departed. The Titan who built the ship, whom some consider to be the same as the king Titan, went there also.
Oden, Vili, and Ve fought and slew the great ice giant Ymir, and icy water from his wounds drowned most of the Rime Giants. The giant Bergelmir escaped, with his wife and children, on a boat made from a hollowed tree trunk. From them rose the race of frost ogres. Ymir's body became the world we live on. His blood became the oceans.
On and on it goes continent by continent. Yes, there are flood myths that do not conform with all of the key components of the Mesopotamian original namely angry gods, build a craft, survive the flood, which should be expected after thousands of years and many different cultural interpretations, but many many do and even more are pretty darned close to it when taken as a whole the majority do not not speak to "independant invention" derived from some global event but rather, the bulk of the tales anyways, to the diffusion of a single story.
> Speaking of Prometheus, the titan who fought with
> Zeus against Kronos, Victor Clube sees it
> The chance of a collision with Kronos, as with any
> other comet was, in fact, remote. And mankind
> settled into a Golden Age. But some time at
> perihelion, around 3,000 B.C., it is likely that
> Kronos ran very close to Venus and split, like
> Shoemaker-Levy, And a trail of new, dazzling
> comets circulated around the Taurid
> stream-evidently, for centuries. Somewhere in this
> array still was the Kronos remnant; less bright,
> perhaps. And a new leader, Zeus or Marduk,
> perhaps, much brighter, together with a new
> serpentine Milky Way, home of the chaos.
Does not Clube argue these events occurred c. 3000-3500BC?
And is this not Velikovsky's revised chronology:
Which if I am not mistaken Clube and Napier either directly or indirectly support. Do you agree with Velikovsky's revised chronology?
> My point being we must consider the events leading
> up to the flood in the different myths. The myths
> have their different vantage points and so differ
> in the preceding events, relaying what was seen
> from their region.
In some cases this may apply but by and large I disagree.
> Of course this is always the argument against the
> validity of the myths.
No, not really as there is a logical limit to how long a myth can be sustained which is perfectly reasonable. There is no question myths and oral tradition are vehicles of information for long period of time but there are so many factors involved to maintain such over ten thousands years, let alone tens of thousands or years, that such an expectation is highly improbable if not physically impossible and whatever did make it through, even after several hundred years, is likely to be different if not unrecognizable from the original tale. The argument is not to be "dismissive" for dismissive's sake, but there is a finite reality to it that means something.
> The first half of "Cosmic Winter" is a very
> interesting journey through history. Clube &
> Napier give an overall picture of the historical
> development of our current belief system - from a
> time in Mesopotamia when the skies were active
> with comets and meteors to the point of causing
> great fear, to the calmer skies in Grecian history
> until now. And why it was deemed necessary to take
> the threats of death out of the heavens and
> consign them to terrestrial causes. Even now
> scientists still have a hard time looking "beyond
> the rooftops".
But just because these catastrophes happened, which they happened after 6,000BC as well, does not mean therefore that any one of them could have been responsible for the flood myth ergo it could just as easily be whenever one wants it to be nor does the fact they happened mean there was a civilization to wipe out in the first place.
> "Indeed it appears that repeated cosmic stress
> - supernatural illuminations - have been
> deliberately programmed out of Christian theology
> and modern science, arguably the two most
> influential contributions of western civilization
> to the control and well-being of humanity."
Which is irrelevant as it pertains to a pyramid building ALC existing prior to 6,000BC let alone 10,000BC as they are referring to historical times are they not?
> In essence, cosmic impacts being just too scary to
> contemplate and terrestrial causes being the slow
> safe sure fire way of explaining mankind's
> existence assuring great titles of authority and
> research grants providing a comfortable living.
> Isn't that what it comes down to - the easiest
> route that will make one an expert, dominate in
> his field?
Be that as it may it does not mean therefore, which I assume Clube an Napier never argue, that because there were catastrophes then this somehow opens the door for cycles of pyramid building antediluvian advanced civilizations.
> I might also point out that the Dead Sea Scrolls
> show remarkedly little difference from the Old
> Testament, 2000 yrs later, the difference being
> limited to a word or two. The Hebrews chalk this
> up to their reverence and commitment to keeping
> the truth in tact. Their scribes having always
> stuck to a strict code of copying texts exactly
> word for word.
There are many reasons for this not worth getting into, but regardless is irrelevant to whether or not oral tradition can be carried across millennia. Unless I write it down I can't even remember what my wife told me to get at the store in the 5 minutes it takes me to get there and even if I do there is no guarantee I will remember it correctly.
> I don't see a plethora of stuff.
I can't post all the pictures of everything ever found so respectfully not knowing is not evidence of absence. I have posted the link to Dolni Vestonice many times which I have to wonder if anyone has ever looked at it. Granted, it is unique, but that is just one place.
> But what you see
> as evidence of the evolution of civilizations, I
> see as remnants of the survivors.
Okey doke. We shall agree to disagree.
> BTW, I'm
> surprised wood would survive for so long, was that
> thing buried in an airtight container?
> I'm not sure what you would expect to survive
> global impacts. Drumlins, tidal waves, hurricanes,
> tsunamis, what are the chances a building's
> foundation or silverware would survive.
Why did I post those pictures of those artifacts in the first place?
> We may be
> looking at it in Puma Punku and if the LC was
> thousands of years ago their dishes, pots,
> windows, tools, clothing, books would have been
> obliterated unless one spoon happened to become
> encased in marine sediment like the Antikythera
> device, and then who would believe one spoon or
> geared mechanism was the remnant of a LC.
It doesn't work that way.
What you would find is evidence of the tsunami and all of the debris to go along with it.
And regardless, when these monuments are excavated to the original ground level they don't just stop looking. In fact, they keep digging well below that level to specifically see when habitation stops which if I have a building at say level A and I dig 10ft deeper to say level C and I still go to level F just to make sure why do I think there would or should be anything beyond that?
This is what archeology does. They dig until the ___ ends. No, this is not to mean they dig everywhere or that there is not a huge amount of interesting things to still be found on this planet, but the exhausting of occupational layers to get to the undisturbed layer is archeology 101. And if a tsunami or flood or fire hit you would also find that too.
> It would
> take an entire preserved household of anomalous
> materials to convince the evolutionists who would
> otherwise attribute it to just another primitive
You may be right about some, but this is not the point as there should be at least something tangible to point to. I would not discount the possibility, however, of interesting things being stored in museum basements or antiquarian private collections that would be quite revealing.
> Some scientists are now arguing catastrophic
> events well before 6000 bc were THE force that
> shaped the development, or fall, of civilization.
No doubt the development but give me some that say they are responsible for the "fall" of civilization prior to this time.
> The sites are being set on 10,000 bc and beyond.
> Again quoting Clube
There is a paradigm shift involved in
> recognizing that it's not just ancient history we
> have got wrong-it's all history
But they are not saying this in the context of because this is true therefore it is possible there were antediluvian lost civilizations capable of building the pyramids though are they?
Anyhoo, I really have to get some work done the next several days so respond if you'd like though I may not give a reply for a while. Appreciate the conversation though.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24-Apr-16 15:49 by Thanos5150.