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For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
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Audrey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Didn't drop out of the conversation, allergies
> have been killing me.

I got 'em now too. They suck.

> It may pertain to the rise of civilization as we
> know it today. But it does not fit with the
> physical and geological evidence of times beyond
> 6,000bc.

For me it is all part of the same story. I do not think the flood myths of the world were talking about events c. 10,000BC but rather 6,000BC.

> I would recommend 'Earth in Upheaval' instead. It
> is strictly about the physical evidence. 'Worlds
> in collision' is about the ancient records and
> comets.

Both sound interesting.

> Then you would be talking about a local flood.

No, like I said a regional one namely the greater Mediterranean i.e. the "known world" of Eurasia. I talk about most of it here which since I found found even more corroborating events:
Evidence of a Global Civilization

> One
> of Velikovsky's arguments for giving serious
> consideration to myth is the nature of a myth.
> Local floods are not a rare event, they recur and
> in the lifetime of the villager he will have heard
> of or witnessed a couple of local floods. In 1889
> the South Fork Dam in Pennsylvania burst flooding
> a town. It is almost forgotten now. The story
> didn't grow to flooding the entire state let alone
> a continent. V argues, as would be expected from
> a psychiatrist, that only an extremely unusual
> event that changed life in drastic ways would be
> worth remembering and retelling. Otherwise the
> event would be just another one similar to others
> in neighboring villages and not the stuff of
> legends. Will I pass on to my grandchildren the
> story of this last 7.8 earthquake in Ecuador? No,
> it's not much different than the other quakes in
> my lifetime. Now if I survive a cosmic impact,
> THAT would be a big deal.

I completely agree but that is not what happened c. 6,000BC.

> The events of the myths do not speak of a local
> flood. It is not just a river overflowing, a
> glacial dam cracking, or torrential rain. From
> the Chippewa, Gilgamesh, and New Zealand, the
> water covered the mountain tops. In Australia only
> the highest peaks were visible. Alaska saw a
> falling star, a ball of fire that made a splash
> all the way to space when it hit water, New
> Zealand saw waves steep as cliffs, and the Maya
> say waves splashed to the sky. Australia saw a
> great bright burning blue star traveling fast and
> hissing, the glare dazzled, it's impact was an
> explosion that roared with a deafening sound.
> High winds, fire raining from the sky, black skies
> without a sun or days that didn't see the sun set.
> This was much more than a local flood . And
> these are not simple flood myths.

I make the case these are not original tales but one disseminated from earlier sources. The more one goes back in time the more similar the tales get which I do not think is a coincidence.

The Greek account relates how Zeus, angered by the impiety of man, sent a Great Deluge to envelop the earth to destroy mankind. Deucalion and Pyhrrha, the first king and queen of Northern Greece, were warned by Prometheus, the creator of man, who instructed them to build a “chest” to survive the flood which they rode on top of to the safety of the dry peaks of Mount Parnassos.

In Hindu mythology, the gods created Manu, the first man, who is said to have been earth’s first king. One day Manu was washing his hands and saw a tiny fish. The fish begged him to put him into a larger vessel and in return the fish would help Manu survive a great flood that would destroy all living things. The fish grew so large that Manu was forced to throw him into the sea which in turn the fish told him to build a ship and take onboard two of each animal and the seeds of every plant. When the waters came, Manu tied his boat to the great fish who brought Manu and his entourage to the Himalaya Mountains where they waited out the deluge.

The Aztec of South America tell how the “Ancient One” spared the lives of one man along with his wife and children from the great deluge by instructing them to find the largest cedar tree in the forest and make from it a canoe to ride out the storm.

The Maio flood myth of China, one of many, holds that the god of thunder sent a flood to destroy the earth leaving a brother and sister to survive the deluge in a large gourd as their boat.

A god(s) sparing the hero to survive the deluge in a floating craft. Chronologically these all point back to a Mesopotamian original which the closer they get the more true they are to the source.

> There are tales of accompanying hurricanes, some
> stories describle the water as "swelling" or
> "rising" to cover the mountains, sometimes with
> rain and sometimes not with rain. Lakes and
> rivers boiled, the earth burned with great fires.
> The Apache report the rushing flood changed the
> plains to mountains. And the Hopi are very
> explicit about the Creator......

Sorry, but personally I put little stock in Native American flood myths in particular for several reasons. We can agree to disagree I am sure, but in general the idea of faithfully transmitting oral history over 10,000yrs seems highly implausible if not impossible. Imagine 10,000yrs of this:


> It is no wonder there are no
> artifacts from a lost civilization as it would
> have been obliterated. All we would have left is
> the geological evidence, and stone.

I have nothing but wonder how this could be.





DOLNI VESTONICE

We have a plethora of stuff from these types of people spanning the 30,000 thousand years or so prior to 10,000BC but nothing except for stone from the lost civilization who supposedly made these:


If 40,000yrs isn't enough just keep going. Whether bones and/or tools we find evidence of humans consistently in the fossil record dating back as much now as 3.3 million years yet nothing from the global ALC? It's one thing to say this is because we have not looked everywhere, but don't you think it means something that everywhere we have looked we have found nothing despite the fact we have found a whole lot of other stuff? This doesn't mean "everything" but it certainly means something.

> The hard evidence doesn't begin circa 6,000
> bc, it begins much later.

Nope. The evidence for c. 6,000BC and the chain of catastrophic events unleashed on the greater Mediterranean region were widespread and catastrophically substantial to all that lived there. No doubt it would have seemed like the gods had punished them. You said your self local events would not warrant remembering, well these (this) events no doubt would. This is not to discount previous catastrophes that led to end of the ice age, not what I am saying, but the question is which of these periods spawned the flood myths which I am putting my money on 6,000BC. In reality what we have are two periods of catastrophe one c. 10,000BC the other c. 6,000BC, both of which greatly affected the rise of civilization in their own way.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 23-Apr-16 04:25 by Thanos5150.

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Ancient temple found off coast of India 1782 carolb 13-Apr-16 20:09
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 654 Freya 14-Apr-16 00:56
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 700 carolb 14-Apr-16 01:29
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 658 Freya 15-Apr-16 00:03
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 455 carolb 15-Apr-16 00:32
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 594 Freya 15-Apr-16 05:04
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 527 Origyptian 15-Apr-16 17:24
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 581 Freya 16-Apr-16 00:41
Tamil Sangam Legends 832 Deep1 16-Apr-16 08:21
Re: Tamil Sangam Legends 501 Freya 16-Apr-16 22:18
Re: Tamil Sangam Legends 647 Deep1 17-Apr-16 08:51
Underworld, by Graham Hancock 628 R Avry Wilson 14-Apr-16 16:53
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 718 Thanos5150 16-Apr-16 16:27
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 611 Origyptian 16-Apr-16 16:45
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 635 Thanos5150 16-Apr-16 21:24
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 614 Origyptian 16-Apr-16 21:59
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 461 Thanos5150 17-Apr-16 16:14
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 547 Origyptian 17-Apr-16 16:43
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 470 Thanos5150 17-Apr-16 17:04
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 514 Origyptian 18-Apr-16 03:55
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 496 Thanos5150 18-Apr-16 05:36
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 514 Origyptian 18-Apr-16 14:00
Re: Ancient mining 530 Thunderbird 18-Apr-16 15:22
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 606 Audrey 17-Apr-16 01:09
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 599 Thanos5150 17-Apr-16 06:16
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 581 Origyptian 17-Apr-16 17:42
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 511 Thanos5150 17-Apr-16 19:01
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 474 Origyptian 18-Apr-16 04:26
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 423 Thanos5150 18-Apr-16 05:29
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 534 Origyptian 18-Apr-16 14:56
Great post 536 drrayeye 17-Apr-16 20:44
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 490 Audrey 17-Apr-16 21:32
Re: Ashes to Ashes.....Dust and rust 554 Thunderbird 17-Apr-16 22:20
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 484 Thanos5150 18-Apr-16 01:13
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 621 Audrey 18-Apr-16 06:01
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 450 Thanos5150 18-Apr-16 21:25
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 517 Audrey 21-Apr-16 04:25
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 516 Thanos5150 23-Apr-16 00:12
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 503 Jon Ellison 23-Apr-16 03:18
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 434 Origyptian 23-Apr-16 16:07
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 540 Audrey 23-Apr-16 20:38
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 505 Thanos5150 24-Apr-16 02:23
Re: Velikovsky and Venus 460 Thunderbird 23-Apr-16 01:50
Re: Velikovsky and Venus 494 Audrey 23-Apr-16 19:16
Re: Cosmic Serpent 500 Thunderbird 24-Apr-16 01:28
Re: Cosmic Serpent 467 Audrey 24-Apr-16 05:07
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 441 Freya 18-Apr-16 20:58
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 522 Thanos5150 19-Apr-16 00:03
Re: Legends... 530 Thunderbird 20-Apr-16 01:40
Re: Legends... 585 Thanos5150 20-Apr-16 04:21
Bosses, scoops, and hollows around the world 502 Origyptian 20-Apr-16 13:36
Re: Bosses, scoops, and hollows around the world 492 Thunderbird 20-Apr-16 15:29
Re: Legends... 623 loveritas 24-Apr-16 06:53
Re: Legends... 443 Origyptian 24-Apr-16 15:37
Re: Legends... 587 Thunderbird 25-Apr-16 03:32
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 412 Freya 20-Apr-16 04:14
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 428 Audrey 21-Apr-16 05:06
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 518 Freya 22-Apr-16 02:01
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 535 Origyptian 22-Apr-16 12:15
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 388 Jon Ellison 22-Apr-16 21:51
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 402 Eddie Larry 22-Apr-16 21:59
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 518 Origyptian 22-Apr-16 22:55
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 427 Eddie Larry 22-Apr-16 23:37
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 524 Jon Ellison 23-Apr-16 02:55
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 510 Eddie Larry 23-Apr-16 14:38
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 549 Jon Ellison 23-Apr-16 16:55
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 459 Eddie Larry 23-Apr-16 17:45
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 466 Thanos5150 22-Apr-16 22:26
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 551 Jon Ellison 17-Apr-16 08:27
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 457 Audrey 17-Apr-16 20:47
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 436 Jon Ellison 17-Apr-16 21:58
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 551 Audrey 18-Apr-16 06:24
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 591 Harte 16-Apr-16 17:49
Re: Ancient temple found off coast of India 575 Lobsang 17-Apr-16 03:08


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