> Sounds like you're saying AE prior to 2000 BC had
> metal tools? That were carried off by invaders?
Sorry in advance for the bloviation. Bored on a Saturday night. I'm getting old.
This is an explanation offered by Origyptian to explain, in conjunction with tens of thousands of years of erosion, where all the tools of the LC went off to which I have said before the exact same thing applies to historical times. Jon posts pictures of cars and boats which begin to rust away in decades so what does this say of tools after millennia? Again, the same argument applies. These are the only arguments ever offered for this LC existing outside of historical times which is really no argument at all not just as stand alone arguments but even more so when the whole of historical context is considered.
I note 2,000BC because this is the traditional cut off, a little later really, for accepted documentary/archeological evidence of foreign occupiers of which since that time there were many civilizations that came and went in AE. Not to mention in AD times. I believe (my opinion) there were other times before 2,000BC AE was occupied by foreigners and as I have said the very impetus for the formation of Dynastic Egypt in the 1st place. Regardless, generally the first thing one does when one invades and occupies another civilization, often the reason for doing so in the first place, is take their valuable stuff which there was nothing more valuable in the ancient world than metal. We see evidence of 13-30ft saws but where are the saws? This is an enormous expense and a lot of valuable resources to tie up with one piece of heavy equipment whose sole purpose is to cut large pieces of granite. How many were there to begin with and how many were even practical to make? All things considered there is zero reason we would find even one in modern times no matter when it was made or by who as the minute it was no longer needed or absconded by an occupier who could give a crap about making large granite columns and the like that thing would go right in the slag heap and made into many other more useful things, like weapons for example. How many swords can be made from one 30ft circular saw?
Another thing to think about is that all of this "advanced technology" used for construction is exclusively found on granite, not limestone, which if you take the OK in particular granite was but a fraction of the overall stonework-essentially "rare" by comparison. The tool marks seen on limestone, including core blocks of G1, are often good ol' fashioned chisels and adzes which means despite whatever magnificent technology was employed at the granite cutting facility, poor saps doing the grunt work of the limestone were using the same tools that had been used for many centuries and thousands of years since which the example I show includes the present day.
Granite was "rare" and was exclusively reserved for the most important and personal of uses like for the pharaoh's burial complex or someone's sarcophagus if they could afford it. The granite came from Aswan, several hundred miles away from Giza, which if we stick to the OK the Nile Delta region (North) is where all of the granite is found. Did they transport even heavier granite cores and cut them at the construction site or more practically cut them to spec at saw houses at or near the quarry in Aswan? Common sense suggest the latter so other than hand tools all of the heavy granite cutting equipment would mostly be nowhere near Giza and likely stocked with limited heavy equipment and various hand tools. Therefore, I would suggest that whatever "advanced equipment" there was that made the granite seen in the OK was nowhere to be found near Lower Egypt (the North), very few in number, and centrally located for easy pickings by occupying civilizations among others over thousands of years.
To the question-did the AE have metals prior to 2,000BC? Well, of course they had copper but also gold, silver (very rare in the OK and earlier), electrum (gold + silver), lead. As far as the OK is concerned, there are a few examples of bronze artifacts including as far back as the 2nd Dynasty, but more importantly their Mesopotamian neighbors (though there are others of this period), namely Sumer and Elam, had been using bronze (copper + tin) since at least the mid to late 4th millennium-nearly 400 if not almost 1,000yrs before the use of cut and dressed stone work of the 3rd Dynasty became the norm. Iron oxide is commonly found in copper ore and is a known byproduct of smelting copper-there is no way any ancient people who smelted copper did not know what iron was which the only question left is did they use it for anything and though provenance and/or source is often contested, several iron objects have been found dated to the OK and earlier. If they did use it, which I do believe they did, its manufacture would have been rare as it requires particular expertise to get it right which if not is otherwise useless. Personally, I do not believe the OK AE smelted iron, but would have rather imported it, possibly from Anatolia/Caucasus. Granted, these are copper/arsenic alloys, but in 2003 a cache of "swords" were discovered in Arslantepe Turkey (Anatolia), which shows clear evidence of Mesopotamian administration and influence, dated to c. 3,300BC which demonstrate remarkable sophistication and ability:
Arslantepe dates back even further to the 5th millennium Ubaid period with monumental mud brick architecture dating to c. 3,700-3,400BC. The point being about these swords is that, for one, they obviously didn't just wake up one day in 3,300BC and start making awesome silver inlaid copper/arsenic alloy swords which just because these are the oldest such found by no means is to suggest they are the "oldest" representing a sophisticated metallurgical tradition that well predates them, but also a simple example of how the Mesopotamian world was wayyy ahead of the AE in regards to metallurgy even by as late as 3,300BC- a good almost 700yrs before Saqqara. And these are but trinkets-what could such a civilization do if they put actual wealth behind such technology? A veritable stone cutting "Manhattan project" of the ancient world.
Alls I'm saying is that prior to Saqqara, and even the formation of the Dynastic state, there was already a hell of a lot of amazing stuff going on in the ancient world all around Egypt long before them. This doesn't mean "nothing".
> I think it's possible the LC had materials other
> than metal, but since we are conditioned to think
> steel is the biggest & strongest of building
> materials, that if an ancient culture had
> sophisticated tools they surely would have been
> metal. Maybe not. I tried to make this point with
> you once using Space Gel as an example.
I remember. Aerogel. Exotic artificial materials are a tough sell because they require manufacturing, research and the infrastructure and technology to support the lot of it which is a rabbit hole with no bottom. I would take alien intervention any day, something I actually do consider a possibility, before I could accept a home grown human technologically advanced civilization(s) nigh on par with our own tens of thousands if not millions of years ago that have somehow inexplicably vanished. As anything exotic is concerned, not that I do, but I would be more inclined to accept plant based and/or mineral chemical compounds that reacted with the stone to make it easier to cut.
> And if the new science, or rather new attitudes,
> are correct about cosmic impacts, these events
> could have wiped out entire civilizations. But as
> others have said, pushing civilization back tens
> of thousands of years is impossible for most to
> consider, it just doesn't fit with the established
> viewpoints of social evolution. What I don't
> understand is why some must adhere to this social
> evolution refusing to consider anything else.
I have considered it and after careful consideration I personally reject it for several reasons. I am not some mainstream/traditionalist (whatever) automaton- I have studied the blanket of these related subjects at great length and have even been lucky enough to travel to many of these places myself. I started this journey, after reading the Bible from cover to cover and studying some of the more interesting material including apocryphal, to having read all of Sitchin's books not to mention Graham, Childress, and the like. I have a library full of alternative authors. Seeing those places, the museums, made me realize there was something not right about what they were saying which led me to equally delve further into "mainstream" research and I found what they were saying wasn't quite right either.
There is no doubt to me there is something significant missing in both the evolutionary and cultural histories of our species (not to mention the origins of life on Earth in general) and from what I have learned and seen in my 25+yrs of research tells me part of the answer is somewhere in the middle and another part unique to myself (humbly and to merely my own satisfaction) which expands on the already existing eclectic alternatives offered by Flinders Petrie and Walter B Emery. None of which, regardless, leads me to a conclusion that supports cycles upon cycles of advanced civilization stretching back tens of thousands if not millions of years let alone any capable of building the megalithic monuments of Egypt. This is not to say there are no such things as (relatively) advanced "lost civilizations", Gobekli Tepe for example did not just spring up overnight fully formed, I just find no evidence, if only to the contrary, to support anything remotely related to the pyramids of Egypt being built prior to "10,000BC" let alone before the Naqada/Dynastic Era.
This does not mean I am "right", of course not as otherwise I would not be here, and as I have said many times a lucky turn of the spade tomorrow can blow this whole __house up in flames and change everything, but I am at the very least secure in the knowledge as of today I am not wrong either.
If there is something discovered compelling enough for me that says this LC is tens of thousands of years old I will be the first to recalculate, revise, and if need be toss it all out. The fact I am not willing to despite the fact as of yet such does not exist, especially while standing on a pretty well earned by my effort solid foundation that says otherwise, is nothing I should apologize for or made to feel as if I am somehow "slighting the alternative movement" because I do not beleive whatever.
Anyhoo. Good night.
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 17-Apr-16 20:19 by Thanos5150.