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For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
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cladking Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I often have no clue where you're going.

And this is my fault?

[snip]

> and (I'm sure
> you believe in gods rather than aliens)

Ignorance assumes much because it knows very little.

Quoting myself in response to Graham from Ancient Alien Hypothesis-what is your best shot?

Quote

Scientists such as Carl Sagan, I.S. Shklovskii, and Hermann Oberth among others, however, all considered the idea of paleocontact during human existence a serious possibility worthy of further study so just because the theory of paleocontact has been hijacked by kooks, pro and con mind you, and transformed into "ancient aliens" does not mean that the heart of the subject is not without merit.

A serious inquiry into the theory of paleocontact begins with determining if such an idea is physically possible which the answer is an ever growing resounding yes. When Sagan and Shklovskii published Intelligent Life in the Universe in 1966, though common sense suggested as much, the idea other planets existing beyond our solar system itself was just “theory” yet in the last 25yrs alone over 1,000 exoplanets planets have been discovered which current statistical estimates suggest there are over 100,000,000,000 planets in just the Milky Way Galaxy alone. The overwhelming majority of these planets are millions if not billions of years older than Earth suggesting that whatever intelligent life has evolved there, which statistically may number in the millions, would potentially be thousands if not millions of years more advanced than ourselves. The Wright brothers made their first flight only 111yrs ago. 66yrs later, a mere 45yrs ago, we landed a man on the Moon with the computing power of a pocket calculator. We barely understand if at all the true significance of quantum mechanical principles such as particle wave duality and quantum entanglement and are only just now beginning to accept the possibility of multiple universes. Some scientists are even testing hypothesis that the universe itself may be artificial. What strange creatures we humans that time and again our intellectual hubris tells us we know what is what only to turn the corner to find out we know nothing yet once again be too dumb to admit it. My wife reminds me of my own such hubris daily....

And yet just as we look beyond our solar system and develop means how to travel to these new worlds, so too can we assume these potentially millions of intelligent species have already done so themselves thousands if not millions of years before us with technology infinitely more advanced than our own. It stands to reason that Earth, a floating ball of water teeming with biological signatures would no doubt stick out like a giant “X marks the spot” being a prime candidate for visitation. If we consider the subject just on statistical grounds alone, it is impossible that at least one alien species has not been to Earth in our remote past if not dozens. And its not just that aliens may have visited us during the span of human existence, but scientists such as Nobel Prize winner Francis Crick (co-discoverer of the structure of DNA)and Leslie Orgel have proposed the theory of Directed Panspermia which suggests that life on Earth itself was the result of seeding by beings from other worlds [profiles.nlm.nih.gov] [blogs.scientificamerican.com]. The truth of the matter is that theoretically Earth may have experienced waves of interstellar contact from numerous species for billions of years from the existence of life itself to the present day.

So, while no, this is just theory and not evidence in and of itself, yet, it is also an idea that is quite logical, if not a universal inevitability, not just statistically but also as a matter of simple common sense. What we imagine possible of ourselves, again an inevitability assuming we survive that long, it is only natural to assume other intelligent alien races much older and more advanced than ourselves have already done and continue to do so and that Earth would have been a prime target for hundreds of millions if not billions of years. It is interesting to think of how many worlds we humans might seed ourselves in the future and how many of those life forms will evolve "in our own image" to ask these very same questions.

As far as the limitations of combustion propulsion go, a common bookend argument against the possibility of alien visitation along with lifespan (i.e. time of travel), it should be a foregone conclusion by now that such archaic modes of transportation will be a thing of the past in the next 100yrs if not our lifetimes. Warp drives, interdimensional travel, and the like, are all on the cutting edge of serious scientific study whose implementation are only a matter of time. ION engines are already in use in NASA spacecraft and is a technology that is advancing exponentially with each passing year. Not too far in the future ION drives will be able to make the trip to Mars in just 39 days or less. It should be common sense to even the most skeptical that just as we look back on steam power today we will soon look back on combustion propulsion all the same.

The other bookend of this argument is our relatively short lifespan, which again such limitations are fading. In the early 20th century the average life expectancy was 31yrs old, today it is nearly 70 and for countries like the U.S. nearly 80. By the year 2037 in just the U.K. alone it is estimated that centenarians will number over 100,000 individuals and those over the age of 80 will double. The point is that increased lifespan in conjunction with ever faster and efficient methods of propulsion means that distance becomes more and more relative. If travelling to the nearest star at a mere 1/10 the speed of light meant a journey of 43yrs, this would not be practical if the average lifespan were 70 yrs old like it is today. But what if the average lifespan were 140yrs? Or 240yrs? Both theoretically only a matter of time, yet if so an intrepid crew could easily make the trip there and back in their lifetime. It is interesting to note that the Gods of ancient cultures, beings whom we are told from the “heavens” came, as well as their human hybrid offspring, as a rule had lifespans of several hundred if not thousands of years.

Therefore, the first requirements of “is it logical” or “possible” I believe are easily answered yes. Statistically it is not just possible, but more likely impossible alien beings would not have visited Earth in the remote past not to mention continuing to the present day. The only limitations as far as the logistics of such a journey are our own ignorance and current understanding of physics and propulsion technology both of which are being turned on their head as we speak.

That leaves us with the question; is there any actual evidence that paleocontact did in fact occur in ancient times? The bottom line is that as of today there is only ONE piece of factual, indisputable evidence regarding paleocontact which is that most ancient cultures, from Mesopotamia to the Americas, believed in one form or another that beings from the heavens, i.e. space, came to Earth and created and/or interacted with man before recorded history, something which I am sure you are well versed. That is it, but in its totality I would suggest quite substantial. While there are many interesting bits of physical circumstantial evidence that can be interpreted as supporting the reality of such beings, by the same token these can also be equally interpreted as the work of nothing more than highly intelligent humans which more often than not, at least in part, is surely the case. The problem with saying that all of these “anomalies” are attributable to humans, however, is that that is not what the ancient people themselves are saying. They are quite emphatic that not only were humans created by these beings but also that they were responsible for imparting higher knowledge and even civilization itself.

As you yourself obviously believe Graham, as most of us here agree, civilization is much older than we are told and is the “legacy” as you aptly put it of an as yet undetermined mother culture. Though the roots of this mother culture responsible for imparting the higher wisdom and technology we see in the megalithic world may so far be unknown to us, the ancient peoples had no such qualms and were quite clear who they were and they were the Gods from the stars. Though as Carl Sagan once said “A completely convincing demonstration of past contact with an extraterrestrial civilization will always be difficult to prove on textual grounds alone.”, unless we think the ancients liars or misguided primitives then we must accept the core of ancient texts for what they are as valid testimonial circumstantial evidence.

Many an alternative author including yourself implore their readers to accept the truths found in myths when it suits their purposes and yet how is it you cannot accept as truth the greatest tenant of ancient myth of them all that the Gods from the stars who created modern humans and gave them wisdom were real? You accept in essence the tales of the global flood myth but not the part about the flesh and blood Gods who they say existed among them before this time? If not figments of their imagination, then who in fact were these Gods from the heavens then with their flying machines and technology? This human "mother culture"? Doesn't seem very likely to me.

There are also numerous complimentary texts that speak to the idea of paleocontact, like the books of Ezekiel and Enoch, and various Sanskrit writings to name a few, that go into vivid detail of what can only be described or are flatly stated as flying machines piloted by "divine", though flesh and blood, beings from the heavens. The Sanskrit writings in particular are not only bereft with such accounts of flying machines and other "divine" technology, but also such esoteric modern scientific concepts as multiple universes populated by billions upon billions of worlds all of which are part of greater universal cycles lasting hundreds of trillions of years, concepts that should have been completely “alien” to ancient man and whose possibilities have only been “rediscovered” in modern times.



“Stylized insects”? Sorry, not buying it.

You are obviously an expert on the Ark of the Covenant and believe it was a real artifact so I assume it is not lost on you that the Ark certainly appears to be a piece of technology which so happens to be associated with divinity, i.e. the God(s) from the heavens and not humans. One would think the masses not so gullible as to not know the difference.

Beyond this, and obviously I could go on and on at length, we are left with interpretation of evidence, but obviously not indisputable evidence itself which is where the AA crowd goes astray seeing aliens in just about everything. It is definitely possible that some of these artifacts or technologies may be a “legacy” of such beings as we are clearly told was the case by the ancient peoples themselves, but there is no reason to think this the product of a protracted hands on occupation of the aliens themselves. If we take the ancients at their word, there was a time of Gods and Men that ended with a diluvian catastrophe and after that time the Gods slowly fade away. The AA crowd imagines an all encompassing alien “presence” going to and from their motherships whizzing about in their rockets getting all up in human’s business around the world, but I suggest the reality would be much different being more akin to a small band of shipwreck survivors with barely more than the technology on their backs than a global “occupation”. And a group of survivors no less whom may have all never made it back home being stuck after the flood to live out their remaining long lived days shepherding select human populations on Earth as living "Gods".

Imagine if a group of 50 modern day astronauts were dropped back in time to the Caucasus mountains of Russia, say, 10,000yrs ago with nothing more than their escape shuttle. What would they do to survive? How many would die in the first 5yrs? What would their impact on local cultures be? Would they mate with the locals? What kind of technology would they develop using ingenuity and "primitive" materials that may seem “advanced” for what we ascribe to “primitive” cultures today? What would their historical legacy be? Would they be the Gods of yore?

This is getting way too long, but I guess the question you have to ask yourself Graham, is that once you have put all of the “ancient aliens” nonsense aside, do you consider statistical probabilities, common sense, and the words of the ancient peoples themselves enough solid logic, evidence, and reasoning to at least still keep an open mind regarding paleocontact? I will have to side with Sagan on this one in that at its core, though not definitive, it is still enough for continued serious consideration.

You were saying...?

> [...] and see if we can get past name
> calling.

Where did I call you a name?

[snip]

> Facts are always interesting and you're a
> bottomless pit of facts (kudos)

No wonder you have so little interest in what I say.

> but there simply
> isn't sufficient evidence at this time to be
> drawing conclusions and irrelevancies won't change
> this.

And what "conclusions" have I drawn exactly? That there are no 700 ton blocks in the Sphinx temple? That Masoudi says nothing of Laird's claims? These are facts, not interpretation. Unfortunately some are incapable of distinguishing between the two. But by my reckoning the only one making "conclusions" here between the two of us is you. And rather ignorant ones at that which is a reflection on you, not me.

Regardless, despite the fact you care so little about what I say, if you have gleaned much of anything I rarely make baseless "conclusions" and offer very little of my own unsupported "opinions". Maybe this is why some have such a hard time "following where I am going".



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05-Apr-16 16:43 by Thanos5150.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Why not aliens? 1913 gulsbo 28-Mar-16 20:47
Re: Why not aliens? 752 Juha 28-Mar-16 21:48
Re: Why not aliens? 732 Audrey 29-Mar-16 17:02
Re: Why not aliens? 762 Buildreps 29-Mar-16 16:27
Re: Why not aliens? 688 Angenia 29-Mar-16 18:08
Re: Why not aliens? 642 brett z 31-Mar-16 22:23
Re: Why not aliens? 630 Angenia 02-Apr-16 19:49
Re: Why not aliens? 634 brett z 02-Apr-16 23:47
Re: Why not aliens? 669 Angenia 03-Apr-16 16:59
Re: Why not aliens? 636 Yourconscience 29-Mar-16 18:15
Re: Why not aliens? 645 Susan Doris 29-Mar-16 23:07
Re: Why not aliens? 634 gulsbo 30-Mar-16 20:34
Re: Why not aliens? 710 David L 30-Mar-16 01:53
Re: Why not aliens? 603 Anomalies 30-Mar-16 17:22
Re: Why not aliens? 567 gulsbo 30-Mar-16 20:36
Re: Why not aliens? 652 Anomalies 30-Mar-16 20:44
Re: Why not aliens? 564 gulsbo 30-Mar-16 21:01
Re: Why not aliens? 576 Harte 31-Mar-16 10:09
Re: Why not aliens? 635 gulsbo 31-Mar-16 18:04
Re: Why not aliens? 648 Angenia 31-Mar-16 16:12
Re: Why not aliens? 578 Origyptian 31-Mar-16 16:45
Re: Why not aliens? 627 Angenia 31-Mar-16 16:55
Re: Why not aliens? 573 Origyptian 31-Mar-16 17:26
Re: Why not aliens? 648 Laird Scranton 31-Mar-16 17:46
Re: Why not aliens? 581 Angenia 31-Mar-16 18:10
Re: Why not aliens? 489 Origyptian 31-Mar-16 18:25
Re: Why not aliens? 570 Laird Scranton 31-Mar-16 18:27
Re: Why not aliens? 624 Angenia 31-Mar-16 19:00
Re: Why not aliens? 630 Origyptian 31-Mar-16 19:18
Re: Why not aliens? 623 gulsbo 30-Mar-16 20:50
Re: Why not aliens? 631 Laird Scranton 31-Mar-16 17:23
Re: Why not aliens? 557 Origyptian 31-Mar-16 17:36
Re: Why not aliens? 604 cladking 31-Mar-16 23:12
Re: Why not aliens? 609 Anomalies 01-Apr-16 14:37
Re: Why not aliens? 642 cladking 01-Apr-16 15:02
Re: Why not aliens? 564 Anomalies 01-Apr-16 18:56
Re: Why not aliens? 622 Origyptian 01-Apr-16 19:11
Re: Why not aliens? 588 Anomalies 02-Apr-16 23:50
Re: Why not aliens? 564 Origyptian 03-Apr-16 16:38
Re: Why not aliens? 581 Luminescence 05-Apr-16 01:59
Re: Why not aliens? 485 Laird Scranton 05-Apr-16 03:30
Re: Why not aliens? 619 carolb 01-Apr-16 21:29
Re: Why not aliens? 577 Laird Scranton 01-Apr-16 22:10
Re: Why not aliens? 609 Origyptian 01-Apr-16 23:15
Re: Why not aliens? 691 Laird Scranton 02-Apr-16 02:22
Re: Why not aliens? 562 Thanos5150 02-Apr-16 15:58
Re: Why not aliens? 599 Laird Scranton 02-Apr-16 17:07
Re: Why not aliens? 561 gulsbo 02-Apr-16 18:33
Re: Why not aliens? 611 Origyptian 03-Apr-16 16:40
Re: Why not aliens? 573 Thanos5150 03-Apr-16 16:50
Re: Why not aliens? 620 Origyptian 03-Apr-16 17:24
Re: Why not aliens? 595 Thanos5150 03-Apr-16 17:32
Re: Why not aliens? 712 gulsbo 03-Apr-16 19:56
Re: Why not aliens? 615 Thanos5150 04-Apr-16 15:39
Re: Why not aliens? 707 Thanos5150 03-Apr-16 00:11
Re: Why not aliens? 622 Origyptian 01-Apr-16 23:10
Re: Why not aliens? 619 Juha 02-Apr-16 22:36
Re: Why not aliens? 643 Laird Scranton 02-Apr-16 22:43
Re: Why not aliens? 592 cladking 02-Apr-16 23:00
Re: Why not aliens? 584 Laird Scranton 02-Apr-16 23:36
Re: Why not aliens? 556 Thanos5150 03-Apr-16 00:20
Re: Why not aliens? 611 Laird Scranton 03-Apr-16 02:28
Re: Why not aliens? 552 Thanos5150 03-Apr-16 03:47
Re: Why not aliens? 568 Laird Scranton 03-Apr-16 04:45
Re: Why not aliens? 633 Thanos5150 03-Apr-16 05:14
Re: Why not aliens? 622 Juha 03-Apr-16 07:09
Re: Why not aliens? 672 Laird Scranton 03-Apr-16 14:42
Re: Why not aliens? 553 Thanos5150 03-Apr-16 16:40
Re: Why not aliens? 582 Laird Scranton 03-Apr-16 17:00
Re: Why not aliens? 609 Thanos5150 03-Apr-16 17:23
Re: Why not aliens? 643 Laird Scranton 03-Apr-16 17:30
Re: Why not aliens? 590 Thanos5150 03-Apr-16 17:58
Re: Why not aliens? 652 Laird Scranton 03-Apr-16 18:14
Re: Why not aliens? 539 Thanos5150 04-Apr-16 00:31
As above, so below. 534 cladking 04-Apr-16 00:59
Re: As above, so below. 481 Thanos5150 04-Apr-16 01:13
Mebbe amnesia is species based "willfull ignorance". 653 cladking 04-Apr-16 01:28
Re: Mebbe amnesia is species based "willfull ignorance". 572 Thanos5150 04-Apr-16 02:25
Re: Mebbe amnesia is species based "willfull ignorance". 591 cladking 04-Apr-16 18:59
Re: Mebbe amnesia is species based "willfull ignorance". 503 Origyptian 04-Apr-16 19:15
Re: Mebbe amnesia is species based "willfull ignorance". 530 Laird Scranton 04-Apr-16 19:30
Re: Mebbe amnesia is species based "willfull ignorance". 535 cladking 05-Apr-16 01:44
Re: Mebbe amnesia is species based "willfull ignorance". 560 Thanos5150 04-Apr-16 22:38
Re: Mebbe amnesia is species based "willfull ignorance". 538 cladking 05-Apr-16 01:35
Re: Mebbe amnesia is species based "willfull ignorance". 537 Thanos5150 05-Apr-16 03:22
Re: Mebbe amnesia is species based "willfull ignorance". 526 cladking 05-Apr-16 03:49
Re: Mebbe amnesia is species based "willfull ignorance". 563 Thanos5150 05-Apr-16 05:09
Re: Why not aliens? 587 Laird Scranton 04-Apr-16 02:45
Re: Why not aliens? 618 Thanos5150 04-Apr-16 03:59
Re: Why not aliens? 545 Audrey 04-Apr-16 05:39
Re: Why not aliens? 510 gulsbo 04-Apr-16 11:33
Re: Why not aliens? 476 Laird Scranton 04-Apr-16 14:43
Re: Why not aliens? 581 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-16 17:04
Re: Why not aliens? 587 Thanos5150 02-Apr-16 23:30
Re: Why not aliens? 572 Origyptian 03-Apr-16 16:36
Re: Why not aliens? 615 Origyptian 03-Apr-16 16:32
Re: Why not aliens? 535 Juha 03-Apr-16 21:05
Re: Why not aliens? 612 Origyptian 03-Apr-16 22:30
Re: Why not aliens? 629 Laird Scranton 03-Apr-16 22:48
Re: Why not aliens? 592 Juha 04-Apr-16 11:59
Re: Why not aliens? 505 gulsbo 03-Apr-16 20:21
Re: Why not aliens? 597 Origyptian 03-Apr-16 22:08
Re: Why not aliens? 633 gulsbo 04-Apr-16 08:10
Re: Why not aliens? 640 Origyptian 04-Apr-16 13:14
Re: Why not aliens? 549 gulsbo 04-Apr-16 16:05
Re: Why not aliens? 572 Laird Scranton 05-Apr-16 03:55
Re: Why not aliens? 588 gulsbo 05-Apr-16 19:08
Re: Why not aliens? 555 Juha 05-Apr-16 19:29
Re: Why not aliens? 645 Origyptian 05-Apr-16 19:31
Re: Why not aliens? 595 Luminescence 06-Apr-16 02:58
Re: Why not aliens? 597 brett z 06-Apr-16 12:29
Re: Why not aliens? 575 Luminescence 06-Apr-16 14:27
Re: Why not aliens? 613 brett z 07-Apr-16 01:41
Re: Why not aliens? 588 gulsbo 07-Apr-16 08:12
Re: Why not aliens? 655 gulsbo 05-Apr-16 20:37
Re: Why not aliens? 611 Laird Scranton 05-Apr-16 20:00
Re: Why not aliens? 607 gulsbo 05-Apr-16 20:41
Re: Why not aliens? 612 Laird Scranton 05-Apr-16 22:09
Re: Why not aliens? 558 gulsbo 06-Apr-16 18:23
Re: Why not aliens? 606 Laird Scranton 06-Apr-16 18:45
Re: Why not aliens? 588 Jon Ellison 07-Apr-16 10:20
Re: Why not aliens? 540 Laird Scranton 07-Apr-16 13:11
Re: Why not aliens? 567 Jon Ellison 07-Apr-16 15:33
Re: Why not aliens? 619 Laird Scranton 07-Apr-16 16:05
Re: Why not aliens? 568 Jon Ellison 07-Apr-16 18:58
Re: Why not aliens? 527 Laird Scranton 07-Apr-16 22:34
Re: Why not aliens? 575 cladking 07-Apr-16 22:29
Re: Why not aliens? 524 Laird Scranton 07-Apr-16 23:55
Re: Why not aliens? 598 Anomalies 07-Apr-16 14:34
Re: Why not aliens? 670 Laird Scranton 07-Apr-16 15:33
Re: Why not aliens? 614 Anomalies 07-Apr-16 17:19
Re: Why not aliens? 605 Laird Scranton 07-Apr-16 17:38
Re: Why not aliens? 518 cladking 07-Apr-16 22:23
Re: Why not aliens? 552 Laird Scranton 07-Apr-16 23:51
Re: Why not aliens? 548 Anomalies 07-Apr-16 17:34
Re: Why not aliens? 570 Laird Scranton 07-Apr-16 18:02
Aliens - missionaries 470 Anomalies 08-Apr-16 18:06
Re: Aliens - missionaries 558 Laird Scranton 08-Apr-16 18:42
Re: Why not aliens? 551 cladking 07-Apr-16 22:16
Re: Why not aliens? 531 Laird Scranton 07-Apr-16 23:48
Re: Why not aliens? 568 gulsbo 07-Apr-16 18:42
Re: Why not aliens? 480 Laird Scranton 07-Apr-16 18:50
Re: Why not aliens? 549 gulsbo 08-Apr-16 13:08
Re: Why not aliens? 588 Juha 08-Apr-16 06:02
Re: Why not aliens? 594 Laird Scranton 08-Apr-16 16:46
Re: Why not aliens? 581 Juha 09-Apr-16 08:06
Re: Why not aliens? 481 gulsbo 09-Apr-16 09:03
Re: Why not aliens? 536 Juha 09-Apr-16 12:01
Re: Why not aliens? 603 Origyptian 09-Apr-16 16:22
Re: Why not aliens? 608 Laird Scranton 09-Apr-16 16:37
Re: Why not aliens? 498 Juha 09-Apr-16 22:04
Re: Why not aliens? 556 Laird Scranton 09-Apr-16 22:25
Re: Why not aliens? 678 cladking 10-Apr-16 02:38


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