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Thanos5150 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Martin Stower Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Some were found in situ. Reisner, A History of
> > the Giza Necropolis
(II), figures 5, 6 and
> > possibly 7.
>
> These are supposedly from the causeway, not the
> temples?

From the list of figures:
Quote

5. Weathered block with figure of Cheops in relief from his funerary temple.
6 a, b. Relief with inscription and figures of Cheops from his funerary temple.
7. Fragments of relief found in the excavation of the Cheops causeway or in the neighbourhood of the Queens’ pyramids which may have come from the walls of the court of the king’s temple.
> > The reused blocks at Lisht are (I would think) a
> > clue as to why no more have been found in situ.
>
> Of course, if true. But this only account for
> Khufu's temples, not Khafre and Menkaure which is
> clearly not the case.

The granite architrave with Khafre’s name on it? And the blocks found are likely to be the tip of the iceberg.

Porter and Moss give a tolerably good list of the Khafre examples:

http://gizapyramids.org/static/pdf%20library/porter-moss_III_giza.pdf

—with the notable exception of the example mentioned above. For whatever reason, Goedicke’s work of 1971 did not reach this revised edition of 1974.

My ambitions at one point extended to providing a full, illustrated survey of these, but other matters supervened.

> > Goedicke is notably cautious in identifying the
> > origins of the blocks.
>
> As he should be.

Which is why I mentioned it.

> > As for the temples of Khafre and Menkaure, granite
> > is obviously less amenable than limestone to the
> > carving of reliefs
>
> You know this is not an argument. . . .

I know nothing of the kind. Area of that sarcophagus, as a fraction of the surface area of (the granite lining of) the valley temple? A massive difference in the amount of work required. The inscribed granite blocks of Sahure are comparable with, if anything, the known Khafre examples, whereas the palmiform granite columns appear to be an innovation—and why should they not be? Compared even with Menkaure, Sahure had saved massively on the labour required for the pyramid itself. Not only is his pyramid smaller, but (unlike Khafre and Menkaure) he did not expend (other people’s) labour on giving it granite casing blocks.

Khafre seems in any case to have preferred sculpture in the round.

> Granite is no excuse, which says nothing of the
> general granite working skills of the period we
> are all more than familiar with, and regardless,
> though meaningless, all of the other temples at
> Giza are limestone.

Other than?

> > and Menkaure’s were completed
> > in only a cursory manner,
>
> Not the megalithic component which was no doubt
> there prior of which Menkaure's roughshod addition
> is more typical of what is found at Dashur, not
> Giza. And I'm sure a sculptor could have found the
> time to bust out a dedication or two for their
> beloved pharaoh and god. As I said, the Red
> pyramid mortuary chapel was also built in a
> "cursory manner" yet they had no problem finding
> time to add reliefs.

I doubt the sculptor was granted discretion in the matter.

By “cursory” I mean that the granite casing was started, but not completed. Such completion as was done was done in mud brick.

Quoting myself: “Reisner’s excavations of Menkaure’s complex revealed a lot, including edicts relating to its status as a pyramid town and the remains of the final offering fires.”

> > which would account for
> > only minimal inscriptions from Khafre’s being
> > known (including his cartouche on a reused granite
> > block, identified by Goedicke as an architrave
> > from the funerary temple).
>
> No, it would not as we can clearly see nearly all
> of the granite is still in the Valley temple yet
> there is nothing.

Really? See above.

> I'd like to see the Goedicke source, but that
> would be "a" temple and not "the" temple.

Which Goedicke source? What he wrote, or what he cited?

> > As for the rest, yes, there are differences, but
> > not differences which depart entirely from the
> > normal arrangements of a pyramid complex.
>
> To quote myself:
> Whether one disagrees with this or not I do not
> think one can be honest with themselves and not
> see the stark disconnect between the temples at
> Giza and those directly before and after and chalk
> it up to mere whim on the part of Khufu and
> co.

The closer I look, the less of a disconnect I see.

> The pictures I show in my previous post make it
> perfectly clear the differences are quite a bit
> more than "design". And where did this "normal"
> originate from? If one is of the mind the
> limestone Giza temples were built prior to the
> temples of Dashur and obviously later, the answer
> is clear. But even if one is not of such an
> opinion, the size and scope of the Giza temples,
> incorporating blocks weighing as much as 400 tons,
> are proof in and of themselves of a uniquely
> different mentality of the builders which implies
> a different function.

“Implies” in what sense? Not deductively. If I follow, this is being offered as an explanation of the visible differences. If so, what is this different function and how does it explain what we see?

> > Khufu
> > did not do things exactly as his father did and
> > neither were the Giza pharaohs (and their
> > architects) absolutely uniform in their
> > productions. I see no greater problem here than I
> > do in the case of cathedrals being different.
>
> Again, though certainly worth noting, "design" is
> least of the issue. I think you understand the
> point I am making so you are free to see what it
> is you want to see regardless.

I consider myself free to see what I think the evidence is showing me.

> http://www.almendron.com/artehistoria/arte/culturas/egyptian-art-in-age-of-the-pyramids/catalogue-fourth-dynasty/5/
>
> Why is this relevant? There are other statues of
> Khafre as well found near the temples. Surely you
> do not consider a statue proof of provenance of
> the builder of the monument nor its function.

I agree with Pete in considering the word “proof” inappropriate in this context—and this is scarcely a full statement of the case.

Multiple statues of Khafre (and no one else) found in the vicinity of the temple, and niches apparently for statues within the temple, do tend to add up to tell a story. Certainly I would wish to be sure of the status of what we see here:

http://www.mercuryrapids.co.uk/Egypt%20web%20page/bigpics/DSCF0042.JPG

http://doub.com/Nichole/Egypt/DCP02346.JPG

—as so often what we see in these cases is reconstruction, but I doubt that what we see here is entirely groundless reconstruction and I do not see that we can reasonably discount the statues as irrelevant to the question being asked. To do so would take us into the realms of an arbitrary “adoption” theory and that to me is merely a form of evasion.

> http://alanfildes.com/plogger/index.php?level=picture&id=1026
>
> Again, why is this relevant? This is graffiti, not
> a royal funerary inscription.

Really? What does it say?

Relevance is, this is the one image I could find of the inscriptions reported. It is not the only inscription reported (as above).

M.

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Re: Were the Egyptians used as Tombs? 588 Pete Vanderzwet 07-Feb-16 17:03
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Re: Were the Egyptians used as Tombs? 694 Jon Ellison 07-Feb-16 05:09
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Re: Were the Egyptians used as Tombs? 613 Pete Vanderzwet 07-Feb-16 17:05
Re: Were the Egyptians used as Tombs? 633 Audrey 07-Feb-16 17:42
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Re: Were the Egyptians used as Tombs? 637 Corpuscles 07-Feb-16 17:50
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Re: Were the Egyptians used as Tombs? 647 cladking 06-Feb-16 21:38
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Re: Were the Egyptians used as Tombs? 576 cladking 07-Feb-16 21:20
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Re: Were the Egyptians used as Tombs? 637 Audrey 13-Feb-16 03:40
Re: Were the Egyptians used as Tombs? 594 Pete Vanderzwet 14-Feb-16 15:27
Re: Were the Egyptians used as Tombs? 579 Origyptian 11-Feb-16 23:49
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Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 609 Origyptian 12-Feb-16 00:00
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Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 557 Audrey 13-Feb-16 21:14
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 514 cladking 13-Feb-16 22:13
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 733 Audrey 13-Feb-16 18:35
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 563 Origyptian 13-Feb-16 18:55
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 619 cladking 13-Feb-16 19:07
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 601 Origyptian 13-Feb-16 18:04
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 653 Audrey 13-Feb-16 18:20
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 572 Origyptian 13-Feb-16 19:56
Re: 3rd times the charm 732 Thunderbird 07-Feb-16 03:41
Re: 3rd times the charm 634 Martin Stower 07-Feb-16 16:24
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 572 Freya 07-Feb-16 19:15
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 656 Pete Vanderzwet 07-Feb-16 21:04
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 589 Brian Patterson 07-Feb-16 21:19
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 646 cladking 07-Feb-16 21:37
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 487 Pete Vanderzwet 08-Feb-16 18:13
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 585 cladking 08-Feb-16 19:09
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 664 Pete Vanderzwet 09-Feb-16 18:10
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 598 cladking 09-Feb-16 19:43
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 635 R Avry Wilson 09-Feb-16 20:21
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 555 cladking 09-Feb-16 21:23
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 598 Freya 08-Feb-16 18:03
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 556 Pete Vanderzwet 08-Feb-16 18:14
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 508 Freya 09-Feb-16 05:40
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 633 R Avry Wilson 09-Feb-16 06:20
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 524 cladking 09-Feb-16 14:35
Tangent topic: Understanding what AE said 639 R Avry Wilson 09-Feb-16 19:11
Re: Tangent topic: Understanding what AE said 499 cladking 09-Feb-16 20:37
Re: Tangent topic: Understanding what AE said 537 R Avry Wilson 10-Feb-16 06:04
Re: Tangent topic: Understanding what AE said 608 cladking 10-Feb-16 16:22
Re: Tangent topic: Understanding what AE said 829 R Avry Wilson 10-Feb-16 23:43
Re: Tangent topic: Understanding what AE said 580 cladking 11-Feb-16 00:45
Re: Tangent topic: Understanding what AE said 648 cladking 11-Feb-16 15:36
Re: Tangent topic: Understanding what AE said 567 cladking 11-Feb-16 19:20
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 581 cladking 09-Feb-16 14:47
Re : Haaretz.....The Pyramids were tombs....not for grain storage 673 Thunderbird 07-Feb-16 22:32
Re: Re : Haaretz.....The Pyramids were tombs....not for grain storage 549 Martin Stower 07-Feb-16 23:14
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 623 R Avry Wilson 08-Feb-16 05:26
Did ancient Egyptians like their pyramids ? 591 Juha 08-Feb-16 08:53
Re: Did ancient Egyptians like their pyramids ? 605 cladking 08-Feb-16 14:55
Re: Did ancient Egyptians like their pyramids ? 599 eyeofhorus33 08-Feb-16 17:46
Re: Did ancient Egyptians like their pyramids ? 641 cladking 08-Feb-16 19:33
Re: Did ancient Egyptians like their pyramids ? 650 Juha 08-Feb-16 21:44
Re: Did ancient Egyptians like their pyramids ? 548 cladking 08-Feb-16 22:02
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 511 Audrey 08-Feb-16 17:38
Re: The rectangle ....open or with lid. 628 Thunderbird 08-Feb-16 22:45
Re: The rectangle ....open or with lid. 637 Audrey 09-Feb-16 01:16
Re: The rectangle ....open or with lid. 586 Martin Stower 09-Feb-16 04:07
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 515 R Avry Wilson 09-Feb-16 00:14
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 588 Audrey 09-Feb-16 01:46
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 641 R Avry Wilson 09-Feb-16 03:05
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 606 Audrey 09-Feb-16 06:56
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 752 R Avry Wilson 09-Feb-16 07:33
Re: Seeing.....and not seeing. 558 Thunderbird 09-Feb-16 06:25
Re: Seeing.....and not seeing. 596 R Avry Wilson 09-Feb-16 07:18
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 723 Martin Stower 09-Feb-16 03:04
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 635 cladking 09-Feb-16 03:46
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 590 Martin Stower 09-Feb-16 04:10
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 513 cladking 09-Feb-16 04:23
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 543 Martin Stower 09-Feb-16 20:14
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 480 cladking 09-Feb-16 21:34
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 613 Martin Stower 09-Feb-16 23:57
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 596 cladking 10-Feb-16 00:14
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 588 cladking 10-Feb-16 00:26
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 520 R Avry Wilson 10-Feb-16 07:05
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 497 cladking 10-Feb-16 15:07
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 611 R Avry Wilson 10-Feb-16 22:58
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 608 cladking 10-Feb-16 23:19
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 664 R Avry Wilson 11-Feb-16 00:11
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 604 Martin Stower 10-Feb-16 01:01
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 443 cladking 10-Feb-16 01:48
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 631 cladking 09-Feb-16 04:20
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 588 Martin Stower 09-Feb-16 20:27
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 629 cladking 09-Feb-16 21:51
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 610 Audrey 09-Feb-16 06:20
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 647 Thanos5150 10-Feb-16 00:12
Re: The Pyramids....the mirror of heaven 605 Thunderbird 10-Feb-16 05:12
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 611 Martin Stower 10-Feb-16 20:20
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 732 Thanos5150 11-Feb-16 05:20
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 675 Martin Stower 11-Feb-16 13:15
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 687 Thanos5150 11-Feb-16 17:38
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 736 Martin Stower 12-Feb-16 00:02
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 591 Audrey 12-Feb-16 05:30
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 664 Merrell 12-Feb-16 08:40
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 666 Martin Stower 12-Feb-16 17:21
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 590 Audrey 12-Feb-16 17:48
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 552 Martin Stower 13-Feb-16 02:24
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 605 Brian Patterson 12-Feb-16 18:03
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 492 Audrey 12-Feb-16 18:32
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 574 Martin Stower 13-Feb-16 02:31
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 702 Audrey 13-Feb-16 03:18
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 782 Thanos5150 12-Feb-16 05:44
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 598 R Avry Wilson 12-Feb-16 06:50
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 747 Thanos5150 12-Feb-16 16:36
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 620 Audrey 12-Feb-16 17:41
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 585 Thanos5150 12-Feb-16 17:58
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 582 R Avry Wilson 12-Feb-16 18:29
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 628 Thanos5150 12-Feb-16 20:49
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 605 R Avry Wilson 12-Feb-16 22:37
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 618 Thanos5150 12-Feb-16 22:54
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 586 R Avry Wilson 12-Feb-16 23:09
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 619 Thanos5150 13-Feb-16 00:45
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 568 Audrey 13-Feb-16 03:03
Re: Khufu Family ....usurped the Pyramids 517 Thunderbird 13-Feb-16 00:01
Re: Khufu Family ....usurped the Pyramids 577 Thanos5150 13-Feb-16 01:01
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 572 Martin Stower 13-Feb-16 01:53
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 642 Thanos5150 13-Feb-16 04:14
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 542 Thanos5150 14-Feb-16 21:28
Steve? (off topic) 591 R Avry Wilson 12-Feb-16 06:30
Re: Steve? (off topic) 634 Martin Stower 13-Feb-16 02:03
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 599 Origyptian 11-Feb-16 19:35
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 640 Jon Ellison 11-Feb-16 21:15
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 566 Origyptian 11-Feb-16 21:42
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 595 R Avry Wilson 12-Feb-16 06:15
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 537 Origyptian 12-Feb-16 13:20
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 642 R Avry Wilson 12-Feb-16 17:48
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 557 Jon Ellison 12-Feb-16 18:21
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 561 Origyptian 12-Feb-16 22:51
...A clear invitation to your very own pod. 576 cladking 12-Feb-16 20:41
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 589 Origyptian 12-Feb-16 22:47
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 579 R Avry Wilson 12-Feb-16 23:03
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 603 Origyptian 12-Feb-16 23:09
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 597 R Avry Wilson 13-Feb-16 00:06
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 407 Martin Stower 13-Feb-16 20:52
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 569 Origyptian 14-Feb-16 06:01
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 509 Martin Stower 14-Feb-16 23:08
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 467 R Avry Wilson 12-Feb-16 23:40
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 575 Origyptian 13-Feb-16 00:22
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 498 Jon Ellison 12-Feb-16 09:48
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 574 Martin Stower 12-Feb-16 03:03
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 630 Corpuscles 12-Feb-16 06:36
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 496 Martin Stower 13-Feb-16 23:08
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 594 R Avry Wilson 12-Feb-16 06:09
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 599 Origyptian 12-Feb-16 16:03
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 518 Pete Vanderzwet 08-Feb-16 18:16
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 555 molder 08-Feb-16 13:22
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 555 Spiros 08-Feb-16 16:06
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 543 Brian Patterson 08-Feb-16 19:10
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 615 cladking 08-Feb-16 20:17
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 612 Pete Vanderzwet 11-Feb-16 03:43
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 599 cladking 11-Feb-16 04:06
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 624 Pete Vanderzwet 11-Feb-16 05:50
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 590 cladking 11-Feb-16 14:34
Some pesky adverbs 658 drrayeye 09-Feb-16 17:08
Re: Some pesky adverbs 593 Pete Vanderzwet 09-Feb-16 18:13
Re: Some pesky adverbs 603 Brian Patterson 09-Feb-16 19:21
Re: Some pesky adverbs 617 Pete Vanderzwet 09-Feb-16 19:24
Re: Some pesky adverbs 535 Brian Patterson 09-Feb-16 19:29
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 645 Sirius7237 10-Feb-16 05:32
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 611 Brian Patterson 11-Feb-16 19:37
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 593 Corpuscles 13-Feb-16 00:06
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 573 Origyptian 13-Feb-16 00:33
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 608 cladking 13-Feb-16 00:43
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 531 Pete Vanderzwet 13-Feb-16 00:42
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 605 Thanos5150 13-Feb-16 01:35
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 627 Brian Patterson 13-Feb-16 00:37
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 582 R Avry Wilson 13-Feb-16 01:32
Re: Were the Egyptian Pyramids used as Tombs? 596 Spiros 15-Feb-16 17:15


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