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Manu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's assume the original inspiration for serekh
> iconography was Sumer.

I think we are far past having to "assume".

> How do you see this
> actually unfolding. For example, let's say Butis,
> Tasians or Badaris traded with Urukis, visited
> each other's settlements etc.

The Buto-Maadi, Tasians and Badari all show various clear ties to the Levant and no doubt at least some were migrants from the Levant themselves. Though the Naqada share similarities with the Badari it is clear their cultural "tool kit" as it were was of a much higher order from its beginning suggesting they too came from "elsewhere" as their is no direct precedent found in any of the other previous cultures. While there is a conversation to be had regarding Levantine/Egyptian migrations/contacts by these earlier cultures the heart of the matter lies with the Naqada culture post 4000BC. And even then this story does not begin until c. 3500BC with the arrival of Elite tombs found at Hierakonpolis which begin to show the first clear signs of unmistakable Mesopotamian cultural influence, not Levantine, well beyond "casual trade" or "monkey see monkey do".

This isn't an "evolution" or mere "borrowings" as what is seen here on many levels is fundamentally different than anything that came before that for me goes without saying was the result of a small yet direct influx of Mesopotamian administration. This shift is beyond sudden "inspiration" nor is there precedent prior. It just is. From this point forward this transformation rapidly accelerates not just culturally but technologically eventually leading to the formation of Dynastic Egypt. So to answer your question it is at this point where I see this all unfolding.

> The former saw the
> architecture of Sumerian palaces and aimed to
> mimick this in their homeland.

As seen in the OP it is beyond "mimicking" as some features are literally identical, for example the crossed-axe motif. It is also not just the palace facade style or the building itself, but several other Mesopotamian cultural motifs and technologies that are also found as part and parcel of this period. Also, though I have bloviated many a time here, I don't think people realize how sophisticated the AE became directly beginning and following the Elite burials and Hierakonpolis which manifested in a relatively very short period of time which all lends to the idea this was a result of continued outside influence. Regardless, just for Egyptians to have wandered into Uruk, or other Mesopotamian cities of the time, would not be enough to go home and "replicate" what they saw.


This requires mastery of several trades and technologies, like making mud-brick, not the least of which architecture, engineering, and large scale project management. Unless they "studied abroad" and came home these things would not be possible without an influx of the originating culture.

> I presume similar
> buildings would have been erected by the Nile
> delta as per your photos.

It may have just been one building for all we know directly associated with the Thinite kings and capitol at Thinis. A recreation of what they saw elsewhere in Mesopotamia.

> Then, the crest evolved
> from these foreign and regional symbols, ie Horus
> cult from Upper Egypt and Delta meets Sumerian
> palace facade...so the crest is a composite of two
> cultures.

What really is "Horus"? Horus in the north and Set in the south. Of course they at some point were seen as gods but what were they originally? I would suggest they themselves began as symbols of two different ruling, possibly foreign, cultures.

> Presumably, as local architecture evolved, the
> foreign influence was side-lined.

I think the influence of the Mesopotamian Foreign Elite was a direct one that lasted for centuries until its collapse in the 2nd Dynasty. What followed is another story as well.

> I can think of an analogous example in Persepolis,
> where Lydian and Ionian column makers from Greece
> were "flown in" to help with construction on the
> Apadana.
>
>
> Is this the scenario you imagined?

To some degree though I believe the early Elites and Pharoahs themselves were of Mesopotamian origin as well.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 8009 Thanos5150 01-Aug-15 02:50
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 1025 Notinham 01-Aug-15 14:23
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 1174 Graham Chase 02-Aug-15 19:59
Re: Ubaid onward 1070 Thunderbird 01-Aug-15 20:40
Re: Ubaid onward 1225 Thanos5150 02-Aug-15 04:37
Re: Ubaid onward 1134 Notinham 02-Aug-15 17:31
Re: Ubaid onward 1191 Thanos5150 02-Aug-15 18:18
Re: Ubaid onward 929 Notinham 02-Aug-15 19:15
Re: Vinca/Copper/Caucuses 949 Thunderbird 02-Aug-15 20:06
Re: Vinca/Copper/Caucuses 1010 Thanos5150 03-Aug-15 16:12
Re: Vinca/Copper/Caucuses 1018 Thunderbird 03-Aug-15 19:51
Re: Vinca/Copper/Caucuses 1087 Thanos5150 03-Aug-15 22:14
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 767 Manu 19-Nov-16 17:53
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 876 Thanos5150 19-Nov-16 18:35
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 944 Thanos5150 20-Nov-16 05:55
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 947 Manu 20-Nov-16 07:45
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 944 Thanos5150 20-Nov-16 22:27
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 837 Manu 21-Nov-16 00:06
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 919 Thanos5150 21-Nov-16 02:28
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 1076 Manu 21-Nov-16 06:18
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 1236 Thanos5150 22-Nov-16 18:49
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 865 Manu 22-Nov-16 19:07
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 724 Thanos5150 23-Nov-16 22:59
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 838 Manu 22-Nov-16 19:28
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 860 DScribr 23-Nov-16 02:24
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 765 Manu 22-Nov-16 19:40
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 773 Thanos5150 22-Nov-16 21:21
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 832 Manu 22-Nov-16 22:49
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 998 Thanos5150 23-Nov-16 02:31
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 829 Manu 23-Nov-16 04:25
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 922 Thanos5150 24-Nov-16 20:01
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 940 Warwick 24-Nov-16 20:18
Mesopotamia link to Optics 409 engbren 15-May-19 15:01
Re: Mesopotamia link to Optics 392 Thanos5150 15-May-19 19:40
Re: Mesopotamia link to Optics 391 engbren 16-May-19 07:52
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 758 DScribr 23-Nov-16 02:17
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 932 Thanos5150 23-Nov-16 03:49
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 788 DScribr 23-Nov-16 14:52
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 789 DScribr 23-Nov-16 02:11
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 817 DScribr 23-Nov-16 02:04
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 848 Thanos5150 23-Nov-16 04:29
Re: Mesopotamian Origins of Writing 729 DScribr 23-Nov-16 15:08
Re: Mesopotamian Origins of Writing 885 Thanos5150 24-Nov-16 05:32
Re: Mesopotamian Origins of Writing 953 Thanos5150 25-Nov-16 06:12
Re: Mesopotamian Origins of Writing 817 DScribr 25-Nov-16 17:40
Re: Mesopotamian Origins of Writing 679 DScribr 25-Nov-16 17:34
Re: Mesopotamian Origins of Writing 816 Thanos5150 25-Nov-16 21:17
The Ankh 746 DScribr 26-Nov-16 16:16
Re: The Ankh 1021 Thanos5150 26-Nov-16 18:15
Re: The Ankh 824 DScribr 26-Nov-16 18:42
Re: Mesopotamian Origins of Writing 756 SandyJesse 14-Dec-16 00:24
Re: Mesopotamian Origins of Writing 953 Thanos5150 15-Dec-16 18:16
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 662 Thanos5150 20-Mar-19 06:30
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 394 engbren 20-Mar-19 08:53
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 433 Corpuscles 20-Mar-19 11:55
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 408 Thanos5150 22-Mar-19 03:22
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 413 jamesglory 22-Mar-19 03:47
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 588 Thanos5150 22-Mar-19 05:27
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 444 jamesglory 25-Mar-19 01:34
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 409 eyeofhorus33 25-Mar-19 18:00
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 420 eyeofhorus33 25-Mar-19 18:16
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 392 Dr. Troglodyte 25-Mar-19 20:18
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 430 Thanos5150 25-Mar-19 20:35
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 464 Thanos5150 26-Mar-19 01:58
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 239 Thanos5150 21-Feb-20 16:12
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 257 waggy 21-Feb-20 18:43
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 249 Manu 21-Feb-20 19:29
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 258 waggy 21-Feb-20 21:16
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 301 Thanos5150 22-Feb-20 02:58
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 170 Thanos5150 10-Nov-20 23:40
Re: Mesopotamian Origin of the Egyptian Serekh Palace Facade Building 104 Tony S. 25-Mar-21 16:24


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