Author of the Month :  The Official GrahamHancock.com forums
Join us at this forum every month for a discussion with famous popular authors from around the world. 
Welcome! Log InRegister
What follows is not meant to be an attack on Message Board participant "Merrell" who brought up the article criticizing Hamlet's Mill -- as I say at the end of this, it is important to examine the validity of the research of others. However, I believe that Hamlet's Mill is very important and that its insights can form an important springboard for future analysis of the questions most of us are interested in, and that the essay in question (discussed below) does not invalidate the arguments in Hamlet's Mill.

Regarding the "extremely detailed" essay dismissing Hamlet's Mill as "an amazing exhibition of academic narrow-mindedness, unrestrained speculation, and lack of expert knowledge, on the part of its authors" by Gary David Thompson, I must disagree that this essay proves that the material in Hamlet's Mill "has been shown to be severely flawed."

On the contrary, I would argue that the examples the author brings out to "debunk" Hamlet's Mill (when he finally gets around to bringing them out) demonstrate his lack of understanding of their thesis and argument. Admittedly, Hamlet's Mill is a dense and somewhat convoluted read. It takes a lot of time to piece through it and tease out the direction of the arguments. However, that (in and of itself) does not invalidate the arguments. This author apparently has not taken the time to grasp the argument completely.

It is somewhat ironic that Gary David Thompson accuses the authors (he is especially critical of von Dechend) of being disorganized, saying: "The contents of the book are poorly organised and presented. The book contains an immense amount of loosely related information but there is no persuasive evidence presented for the connections being made." Ironic because Mr. Thompson's essay can also be accurately described as containing an "immense amount of loosely related information." The first 2/3 of his essay reads like a disjointed recitation of everything that came out of a very vigorous web search, with no explanation as to the significance of the information, how it is connected, or why Mr. Thompson included it at all (or why the reader would be interested in learning it). I am not sure why the room number of lectures from the 1960s or the times that seminars met is important to his argument at all, nor why I should want to know which airport Dr. de Santillana flew out of on a trip to Europe.

While I am not a particular fan of Microsoft, or Microsoft's "Bing" search engine, or Microsoft's advertising agency or most of the ads they produce (and I do not own Microsoft stock nor am I short shares in Microsoft), their early "search overload" advertisements show why information needs to be tied to a point in order to be of use to anyone (see this video for an example -- the first half of the article suffers from the same problem).

I can only believe that Mr. Thompson included all of that very detailed information about the personalities and lives of de Santillana and von Dechend as a giant ad hominem attack that is supposed to discredit them and dissuade anyone from reading their work. I do not believe that is a good way to determine whether or not someone's analysis has merit -- I believe it is much more important to examine the person's analysis itself and make a judgment that way. I believe it is quite unfair to attack the author, as if there are any human authors about whom you cannot find plenty to criticize. I personally do not care if de Santillana and von Dechend received their insights directly from aliens -- if their insights and analysis appears to be supported by close examination of the myths or astronomical phenomena that they describe, then it may be worthwhile in advancing human knowledge (in fact, even if only some of their insights turn out to be borne out by independent analysis, then it can be said to be of value).

I have personally examined their text very carefully and I can attest to the fact that their insights are absolutely borne out by close examination of the contents of myths from the familiar episodes of Homer to the less-familiar mythology of Polynesia (some of the examples I use in my book come from myths reported by independent researchers of the cultures of the Pacific, many of them published before Hamlet's Mill was published.

Of course I do not agree with every sentiment espoused by de Santillana and von Dechend, nor with every aspect of their own personal belief systems or with everything they did during their lifetimes. But to mock them for things they did or believed during the decades that they lived (which were very different times in the world of academia than those of today or of the past couple decades) is both uncharitable and unhelpful. I have published a blog post in which I point out that the "blind spots" of previous eras are often more obvious to us today than the "blind spots" that we have which we do not see ourselves. This fact is related to the literary trope in which mystery stories are almost always solved by an "outsider" (see Sherlock Holmes or Scooby Doo).

I have also written a blog post about ad hominem attacks on authors whose work people want to marginalize or discredit for some reason, and why I disagree with that tactic. It is quite common to see labels such as "racist" thrown around when someone proposes that ancient civilizations may have had contact amongst them, as if this somehow takes away from the dignity of cultures in the Americas or in Polynesia which are assumed under the conventional model to have developed in splendid isolation. While I agree that there has been a lot of racist scholarship in the past -- and no doubt there still is -- it is also a very underhanded way to discredit someone's work even if they are not actually racist at all. Of course, Mr. Thompson does not come out and call de Santillana and von Dechend racist, although he does say they are "narrow-minded." I do not mean to imply that he uses the word "racist," although the blog post I just linked above does contain a link to someone who uses that word to criticize the work of someone proposing an alternative to the conventional history of the world.

Incidentally, just because Mr. Thompson describes himself as a self-proclaimed "atheist" and "skeptic" does not automatically invalidate his arguments either, of course. I really believe it is important to examine someone's analysis rather than try to use their own personal traits to dismiss their work. It is not fair to do that to Mr. Thompson, nor is it fair for Mr. Thompson to do that to de Santillana and von Dechend. It is true that one's beliefs and life experiences influence what they think and may influence their analysis, so knowing such things is not wrong. But it is one thing to say, "Look at this analysis -- they go from X and deduce Z, and you cannot do that -- perhaps this person's belief system influenced this unjustifiable jump from X to Z" and a completely different thing to say "Mr. A is an atheist: therefore we already know his analysis will be suspect," or "therefore we already know his analysis will be wrong." I believe Mr. Thompson does a little too much of the latter in his essay, and that is completely unfair to de Santillana and von Dechend.

Now to my point about Mr. Thompson's failure to understand de Santillana and von Dechend. He takes them to task in parts 2, 3, and 4 for things like this (the quote is from Mr. Thompson's essay):
Quote

Erra is an Akkadian warrior god. The result of Erra's assault is that the world is plunged into darkness and as a result Marduk is displaced from his throne and forced to descend to the underworld. Erra temporarily seizes control of Babylon from Marduk during the latter's temporary absence. As the phenomena of precession is completely unconnected with any occurrence of celestial darkness this type of imagery can hardly be descriptive of precession. The theme of the chosen imagery of the Erra-Epic is believed to refer to a disastrous military event that occurred to the city of Babylon in the "dark age" at the beginning of the first millennium BCE.

To say that the displacement of a god, after which he is forced to descend into the underworld, "can hardly be descriptive of precession" is just plain wrong. This is exactly the pattern we see in the Osiris myth in Egypt, as well as in the Kronos myth in ancient Greece, both of which can clearly be explained in terms of precession (Jane Sellers does an excellent job explaining exactly how this can be seen as descriptive of precession in her well-known and well-written book The Death of Gods in Ancient Egypt; and I discuss it at length in my book and give some shorter discussion of the same topic on my blog in posts such as this one).

In other words, the examples Mr. Thompson brings up to discredit Hamlet's Mill do not discredit Hamlet's Mill at all (if anything, they generally reinforce the arguments of de Santillana and von Dechend and show that Mr. Thompson does not understand their thesis).

He brings up a book by William Thompson which interprets the fairy tale of Rapunzel as "involving the sun and moon and the planetary motion of Mercury, Venus and Mars." This interpretation is not dealt with directly (in other words, no argument is offered to demonstrate that Rapunzel is not about celestial bodies) but rather is "discredited" by saying that William Thompson knew Hertha von Dechend and that she "discussed her ideas on ancient mythology and astronomy with him at their lunches in the student cafeteria." This does not discredit the thesis of Hamlet's Mill at all either! In fact, the possibility that Rapunzel contains such information is further validation of their thesis (Hamlet's Mill cites several cases in which folk tales appear to contain the same celestial information as epics and sagas contain, but using more "rustic" characters such as the farmer's cat instead of great heroes or warriors). I have compared this to actors who appear in very different costumes in different movies or plays, but who are the same actors (see this blog post).

Mr. Thompson is also critical of what he calls, "The influence of Higgins' concept of an ancient world-wide secret religious order sharing knowledge" and dismisses the idea on the basis that if such an order existed to share celestial scientific knowledge, then why didn't it also encode other knowledge, saying: "My only comment is why didn't the channels of communication - whatever they supposedly were - also get used to carry other technical information such as metalworking."

That's a good question, but it doesn't disprove the possibility that myths were used to encode celestial knowledge. One rather obvious answer is that it is quite possible that some ancient knowledge was perceived as dangerous to let out to everyone, while other knowledge (such as metalworking) was not. I have discussed other less obvious reasons why such knowledge might have been perceived as needing to be kept secret, in a blog post entitled "If the ancients really knew so much, why didn't they just come out and say it?". In that post, I reference some very good arguments offered by both Robert Temple and by John Anthony West.

Finally, while Hamlet's Mill deals primarily with evidence in mythology, My own examination of the evidence from physical archaeology (measurements of ancient monuments, etc) leads me to believe that archaeological evidence supports the evidence found in mythology, and that this further supports the general thesis of de Santillana and von Dechend. Needless to say, many others have found similar evidence and the evidence appears overwhelming that ancient cultures knew about precession long before conventional history says that they should have. This confirmatory evidence from archaeology indicates that we should not dismiss Hamlet's Mill so readily.

This lengthy response is not intended as an attack on Message Board participant Merrell, whose point that we should not uncritically accept the analysis of anyone (including de Santillana and von Dechend) is well taken. There are doubtless some errors in Hamlet's Mill, and plenty of room for criticism. However, I disagree that their entire thesis has been disproven, or that their very insightful text needs to be thrown out. I also disagree with the ad hominem tactics of the essayist cited.

My own research indicates that Hamlet's Mill is an extremely valuable work and one which, while certainly difficult to read, provides many insights that should inform our search for the answers to the mysteries of mankind's ancient past.



Post Edited (09-Jan-12 00:47)

Options: ReplyQuote


Subject Views Written By Posted
How the axis came unhinged 1071 dwm 05-Jan-12 07:39
Re: How the axis came unhinged 139 Aine 05-Jan-12 12:52
Re: How the axis came unhinged 181 dwm 05-Jan-12 16:00
Re: How the axis came unhinged 161 Aine 05-Jan-12 16:19
Re: How the axis came unhinged 137 JonnyMcA 05-Jan-12 13:54
Re: How the axis came unhinged 142 michael seabrook 05-Jan-12 14:07
Re: How the axis came unhinged 146 dwm 05-Jan-12 15:45
Re: How the axis came unhinged 150 Anomalies 05-Jan-12 20:57
Re: How the axis came unhinged 134 Merrell 05-Jan-12 17:21
Re: How the axis came unhinged 127 JonnyMcA 08-Jan-12 09:46
Re: How the axis came unhinged 97 Merrell 08-Jan-12 18:13
Re: How the axis came unhinged 146 dwm 08-Jan-12 17:06
Re: How the axis came unhinged 135 Merrell 08-Jan-12 18:09
has Hamlet's Mill been debunked? 184 drrayeye 08-Jan-12 19:19
Re: has Hamlet's Mill been debunked? 527 Merrell 09-Jan-12 10:44
Re: has Hamlet's Mill been debunked? 150 drrayeye 09-Jan-12 11:14
Re: Hamlet's Mill 916 dwm 09-Jan-12 00:29
Re: Hamlet's Mill 138 Merrell 28-Jan-12 11:09
Re: Hamlet's Mill 366 dwm 29-Jan-12 05:34
Re: How the axis came unhinged 155 michael seabrook 05-Jan-12 14:10
Re: How the axis came unhinged 139 NetWorkAngel 05-Jan-12 15:30
Re: How the axis came unhinged 163 Aine 05-Jan-12 15:47
Re: How the axis came unhinged 196 dwm 05-Jan-12 16:09
Re: How the axis came unhinged 124 Aine 05-Jan-12 19:38
Re: How the axis came unhinged 148 dwm 06-Jan-12 06:22
Re: How the axis came unhinged 150 Aine 06-Jan-12 15:09
Re: How the axis came unhinged 176 carolb 05-Jan-12 19:44
flooding from space ??? 177 michael seabrook 05-Jan-12 15:53
Re: How the axis came unhinged 125 Archae Solenhofen 05-Jan-12 17:32
Re: How the axis came unhinged 126 dwm 05-Jan-12 23:29
Re: How the axis came unhinged 156 Archae Solenhofen 06-Jan-12 02:53
Re: Very well said Archae 140 Thunderbird 13-Jan-12 04:18
Re: How the axis came unhinged 104 R and M 05-Jan-12 23:47
Re: How the axis came unhinged 117 dwm 07-Jan-12 17:21
Re: How the axis came unhinged 153 R and M 09-Jan-12 01:31
This quote would indicate intelligent design rather than evolution. 130 spitfire888 07-Jan-12 17:52
Date of the Great Flood of Noah 146 spitfire888 07-Jan-12 20:15
Re: Date of the Great Flood of Noah 138 Aine 08-Jan-12 00:03
Re: Date of the Great Flood of Noah 112 spitfire888 08-Jan-12 00:07
Re: Date of the Great Flood of Noah 173 Richard Essame 08-Jan-12 07:27
Re: Date of the Great Flood of Noah 182 Aine 08-Jan-12 14:25
Re: This quote would indicate intelligent design rather than evolution. 126 dwm 07-Jan-12 23:53
Re: How the axis came unhinged 131 hansmittendorf 09-Jan-12 06:43
Re: How the axis came unhinged 163 dwm 09-Jan-12 15:10
Re: How the axis came unhinged 177 hansmittendorf 30-Jan-12 14:26
Re: How the axis came unhinged 141 dwm 30-Jan-12 21:59
Re: How the axis came unhinged 140 hansmittendorf 31-Jan-12 07:09
Re: How the axis came unhinged 114 dwm 31-Jan-12 07:35


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.