AS: Make sure when you elude to "smoke and mirrors" that you make a little more of an effort to point out the 1 possibly 200 ton block in the pavement of Khafre's Pyramid is right in the quarry from which it was extracted and is at ground level, and the 4 in Menkaure's Mortuary temple are right next to the quarry from which they were extracted and that they also are at ground level as well.
SC: Well thank you, Archae, for admitting the FACT that THERE ARE a number of 200+ ton blocks in use within structures on the Giza plateau.
AS: Ya, 4 or 5 all at ground level and either in the quarry or right next to it, I have pointed these out numerous times on this board so there is no mystery here. I'd like to see a fringe archeology author get away with going on and on, paragraph after paragraph, about that feat being beyond our modern technology and see how the editor lets it past without some kind of added pizzazz to make it sound remotely believable to the layperson. One might think that's why facts about the actual 200 ton blocks are never mentioned in such.....
SC: OK, Archae. Let’s deconstruct what you have just said:
You now - in this thread - admit that there are in fact 200+ ton blocks that the AE of the 4th dynasty quarried, lifted, moved and set in place at Giza. Good.
GH and RB expressed the view that our modern crane technology (i.e. of some 12 or more years ago that is) would have been stretched - if I can put it like that - to lift and move such megaliths. (Note: they never said anywhere that such was impossible for these cranes. "Taxing" certainly but not impossible). Now - you have in this thread admitted that you have never set any crane in place, nor have you operated one. You have admitted that you don't actually know what difficulties a modern crane (of some 12 years ago) would have encountered in attempting to lift and move such heavy megaliths at Giza. I think RB - as a construction engineer - has a better idea of the complexities, logistics and general difficulties involved in such an operation than you ever will. Case closed.
Facts of 200+ ton blocks are - as I have already said to you - it takes the same FORCE to move such a megalithic block 1 FOOT as it does to move it 1 MILE. That is the kind of fact the layperson ought to be told, don't you think?
SC: You seem to be suggesting now that G2 and G3 pyramids were built in a quarry?
AS: Khafre's certainly was, after all it's built into the side of a hill in which the lower part of the pyramid is quarried bedrock.... he's got one maybe-200 ton block (its full dimensions are not known) in his pavement.... that's it. WoW!
SC: Excuse me? All you can say is, “... he's got one maybe-200 ton block (its full dimensions are not known) in his pavement...that’s it. WoW!”
I think you do the AE of the 4th dynasty who actually quarried, lifted, moved and positioned this 200+ ton block at G2 a quite monumental disservice with such glib, derisory and dismissive comments. You demonstrate an arrogance here that is eclipsed only by your utterly despicable disrespect and complete disregard to what these amazing people actually achieved with primitive technology. My god - get over yourself.
And let us not forget here the several 200+ton blocks used in the base of Menkaure’s pyramid. I guess you think the 4th Dynasty AEs placed them there by magic, huh?
SC: These 200+ blocks had to be QUARRIED, MOVED and POSITIONED - not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination using bronze age technology since I am sure you will also aware that the FORCE required to move such a megalithic block ONE FOOT or ONE MILE is the same – it is the energy expended that is different. As I said – smoke and mirrors.
AS: Never said it was easy, just possible.... since other civilization have moved similar weights with levers, sledges, ropes, and human power.
SC: Perhaps, Archae – but you certainly had no intention of bringing forth to this discussion any mention of the 200+ ton blocks that DO EXIST in at G2 and G3, that we know the AE of the 4th Dynasty MUST have quarried, lifted, moved and positioned. You really are quite selective in the data you wish to present, aren’t you! Anything that makes GH and RB look bad whilst all the time you know full well that such 200+ ton blocks were indeed quarried, lifted, moved and positioned by the 4th Dynasty AEs. That is known as being economical with the facts, Archae. In this thread by attempting to focus the discussion solely on the blocks in Khafre’s Valley Temple, you were in fact trying to convey the impression that blocks weighing 200 ton+ did not exist anywhere in any structure at Giza and we both know that is patently not the case. I know very well you have acknowledged the existence of these 200+ ton blocks here on GHMB and on other boards but, curiously, you declined the opportunity to give mention to them in this particular thread. One has to ask why? This is known as being economical with the truth, Archae. It is known as lying by omission whereby you deny the neutral observer the opportunity to make an informed decision on facts you well know but which you keep to yourself. You might think you can fool Joe Average by withholding such information or with your silky sleight of tongue, but please do not think for a moment, Archae, that everyone on this board can be so easily fooled with your tongue-twisting, mud-raking, fact-withholding double-talk.
SC: The FACT remains - the AE of the 4th dynasty quarried, moved and positioned a number of 200+ ton blocks. Period.
AS: No one claimed that they didn't, since there is absolutely nothing preventing them from doing so. [/quote]
SC: But neither did you alert the casual reader of this thread to the absolute FACT (we both agree on) that the AEs of the 4th dynasty DID INDEED quarry, lift, move and set in place 200+ blocks at Giza. I had to prompt you to do so, didn’t I! Play fair, Archae.
SC: And GH and RB accept their original assessment was in error.
AS: If you say so....
SC: No, actually RB and GH have themselves admitted as much. Indeed, even YOU in this thread have quoted RB’s very own admission of a “...gross exaggeration...” [of the VT blocks] how many times now? Like I said to you before, Archae – you get two brownie points. Take “yes” for an answer and get off that little 200 ton island of yours.
AS: As for the 4th dynasty, Old Kingdom construction date for the Giza pyramids, does that also include the Sphinx, Sphinx temple, and Khafre Valley temple or are they from well before the 4th dynasty?
SC: Sorry – not my field. You can take that particular debate up with JAW. Mind you, if I recall, he whipped your ass good style last time round so probably best you don’t go there again, I would think.
SC: Says who? Are you now saying to us that the AE of the 4th Dynasty couldn't move these blocks when evidently they did? Or are you just being sarcastic? The AE of the 4th dynasty quarried these 200+ ton blocks, moved these 200+ ton blocks and set them in place using only their bronze age technology and a little bit of savvy and ingenuity. There - does that make it any more unequivocal for you?
AS: Yes, that admission is just what I am looking for.... thanks.
SC: Archae – that was not an admission by me. That is what I have ALWAYS believed to be the case. There's a difference.