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Kboldt wrote:

> But, Jim,
>
> This debate is not over symbolism. I have no argument with you
> there. This debate is over whether or not The Founding Fathers
> recognized God in the Constitution. I advise you to read the
> Federalist Papers link on that site I gave you to get a better
> understanding of what the Founders were trying to establish and
> what they actually thought.

***
I haven't read them, but it seems so simple: put it in the Constitution if they felt it really necessary. There were laywers amongst them. Thus, I would have to conclude that god is not in the constitution for a reason (not an oversight as that could have been fixed later??).


>
> I agree that the Bible contains much symbolism and "figure of
> speech." If you read my posts you will see I promote the
> symbolism in the Bible.
>
> But to state that the Bible is completely symbolic is just as
> frivilous as those who profess that the Bible should be taken
> in complete literal terms.

***
A creation story HAS to be 100% symbolic as there were no fully-grown humans present as a witness. THAT'S the whole point of mythical creation stories. Not all of the bible is 100% symbolic, but those passages that non-theists can't believe in a literal sense, "are" symbolic.


>
> The Bible is a combination of literal historical events and
> symbolic and archetypal meanings. There are astrological and
> astronomical symbols as well as "figures of speech" with
> literal under and overtones. But to say that the people or
> events did not take place is to also ignore the historical and
> archaeological records of Ancient Egypt which are the same
> records as the first half of the Bible.

***
The Exodus never took place. No arch. evidence will ever be found (as 1 example). The Hebrew writers introduced the concept of an "interactive god". Additionally, they were creating their OWN history (i.e. the bible is ultimately a political book).



(the names have been
> changed, but it is the record of the same people)
>
> History becomes legend, legend becomes myth,

***
Legend and myth need not have any historicity to still be legend and myth.


then all together
> forgotten. When they are rediscovered, they are oftentimes hard
> to believe. But that doesn't mean they did not take place. So
> Moses faced "glowed". Are you denying the possibility of a
> "supernatural" event?

***
Yes and no. Since we see similar, consistent descriptions elsewhere, the questions begs, IS there a "natural" explanation for these events.

Semi-obviously, my take is that there really is no god since he's been dormant for 2000 years and hasn't let us later humans see the same level of "miracle" that others got to see. IOW, if the events DID happen as they say, the apostles get to use less faith in believing Jesus than those of us born 2000 years later.


Then you deny all things in nature that
> "glow".

***
No, I don't deny nature where things glow like meteorites, the moon, sun, etc.


His face "shone" because he was exposed to something
> "supernatural" (that is, that which is beyond our understanding
> of natural). Why is this so hard to believe for you?

***
That's the literal take. The symbolic take (the REASON for the writing in the first place) is that Moses was a meteorite. Remember, Moses face glows after ASCENDING the mount. The descent and ascent motifs are all over the place in religion (Greece, et. al.). Thus, the fact that Moses face glowed in conjunction with the fact that it occurred up on the mountain (the primordial piece of land per the ancient Egyptians belief), leads me to believe it was a symbolic event/meaning.

>
> Did meteors fall to the earth back then? Of course they did.
> Look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Natural events did
> take place, albeit, with the help of a Supreme Advanced Being
> whom we call God.

***
Why must a supreme being be responsible for these events? If that's the case then the greek religion seems far more robust in "gods"/deities than the bible.


And the stories in the Bible are the records
> of these events.

***
Biased records at best. History has a way like that.


I don't believe the earth was created in a
> literal six days. In six ages, maybe, but not six days.

***
Why is god separate from creation?


>
> You are free as always to believe what you want.

***
Yes, but I'm in the minority here in the U.S. Other countries, different story.

JL

>
> kind regards,
> Kim

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Christians & the "End of Days" 648 SunSword 04-Apr-05 20:28
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 310 Paoputzu 04-Apr-05 23:36
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 317 Kboldt 05-Apr-05 17:18
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 332 Paoputzu 07-Apr-05 12:14
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 245 Jaimi2 05-Apr-05 16:30
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 259 whytebyrd 05-Apr-05 17:41
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 324 Kboldt 05-Apr-05 18:12
I would like to add... 339 Kboldt 06-Apr-05 14:24
And I would like to add... 298 Lee McGiffen 06-Apr-05 16:00
Re: And I would like to add... 313 Kboldt 06-Apr-05 18:06
Re: And I would like to add... 264 JimLewandowski 06-Apr-05 18:18
Re: And I would like to add... 330 Kboldt 06-Apr-05 18:47
Re: And I would like to add... 231 JimLewandowski 06-Apr-05 18:54
Re: And I would like to add... 322 SunSword 06-Apr-05 19:46
Re: And I would like to add... 236 JimLewandowski 06-Apr-05 19:55
Re: And I would like to add... 289 Cesar 06-Apr-05 22:44
more of a deistic take on things 256 JimLewandowski 07-Apr-05 15:22
Re: And I would like to add... 382 Briffits 09-Apr-05 10:26
Re: And I would like to add... 277 Lee McGiffen 12-Apr-05 11:45
Re: And I would like to add... 282 Kboldt 12-Apr-05 13:10
you can approach this "problem" in 3 ways 233 JimLewandowski 12-Apr-05 16:43
Re: you can approach this "problem" in 3 ways 306 Kboldt 12-Apr-05 17:00
Re: you can approach this "problem" in 3 ways 243 JimLewandowski 12-Apr-05 19:00
Re: you can approach this "problem" in 3 ways 298 Kboldt 12-Apr-05 19:56
Re: you can approach this "problem" in 3 ways 254 JimLewandowski 12-Apr-05 20:13
Re: you can approach this "problem" in 3 ways 265 Cesar 12-Apr-05 20:40
Re: you can approach this "problem" in 3 ways 308 Kboldt 12-Apr-05 20:44
I've always felt the phrase "all men are created equal" 246 JimLewandowski 12-Apr-05 23:07
Re: I've always felt the phrase "all men are created equal" 287 Cesar 13-Apr-05 09:45
Re: And I would like to add... 304 SunSword 12-Apr-05 14:06
Re: And I would like to add... 256 Lee McGiffen 13-Apr-05 10:55
then why would Jefferson CUT out of the bible 239 JimLewandowski 06-Apr-05 17:32
Re: then why would Jefferson CUT out of the bible 338 Kboldt 06-Apr-05 18:12
Re: then why would Jefferson CUT out of the bible 264 JimLewandowski 06-Apr-05 18:16
Re: then why would Jefferson CUT out of the bible 244 Joyeuse 09-Apr-05 02:21
forgot the link for information 228 Joyeuse 09-Apr-05 02:36
Re: then why would Jefferson CUT out of the bible 233 Farseeker 11-Apr-05 19:15
in the end, it's all geography 261 JimLewandowski 11-Apr-05 20:57
Re: in the end, it's all geography 235 Farseeker 11-Apr-05 21:28
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 248 Diomede 05-Apr-05 22:10
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 258 Gordon Strachan 07-Apr-05 16:13
No real percentage increase in Evangelical vote for Bush in 2004 320 SunSword 07-Apr-05 17:24
Re: No real percentage increase in Evangelical vote for Bush in 2004 260 Paoputzu 08-Apr-05 01:58
Re: No real percentage increase in Evangelical vote for Bush in 2004 292 SunSword 08-Apr-05 15:09
Re: No real percentage increase in Evangelical vote for Bush in 2004 232 Paoputzu 08-Apr-05 16:39
fundamentalism is on the rise around the globe 234 JimLewandowski 08-Apr-05 17:07
The End is coming... 268 Lee McGiffen 09-Apr-05 08:20
Re: The End is coming... 247 JamesH 09-Apr-05 14:37
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 256 Kattmanndoo 15-Apr-05 03:12
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 282 Cesar 15-Apr-05 07:36
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 232 Gordon Strachan 15-Apr-05 17:11
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 307 SunSword 15-Apr-05 17:20
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 319 Kboldt 15-Apr-05 18:05
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 245 Gordon Strachan 18-Apr-05 15:35
Neo-Cons & "Apocolyptic" Christians 297 SunSword 18-Apr-05 16:41
According to a Newsweek poll... 236 David L 18-Apr-05 22:54
Re: According to a Newsweek poll... 239 Joyeuse 19-Apr-05 00:32
Re: According to a Newsweek poll... 229 JimLewandowski 19-Apr-05 04:18
Re: According to a Newsweek poll... 224 Joyeuse 20-Apr-05 02:49
Re: According to a Newsweek poll... 302 SunSword 20-Apr-05 14:16
Re: According to a Newsweek poll... 237 Joyeuse 21-Apr-05 01:07
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 247 Gordon Strachan 21-Apr-05 15:08
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 312 Paoputzu 21-Apr-05 15:57
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 290 SunSword 21-Apr-05 16:10
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 319 Gordon Strachan 26-Apr-05 14:52


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