> JimLewandowski wrote:
> > 1) FF were Christians and by lack of judgement, forgot to put
> > god (or the word creator) in the Constitution
> OR... 1) They didn't need to put in the word GOD or Creator
> because it was understood that God is sovereign according to
> the Federalist Papers which are the precursor to the
> development of the U.S. Constitution. Read for yourself here in
> the National Archives of the Library of Congress....
Thanks for the link, but what specifically should I read on that website??
> > 2) FF were deists and knew a theocracy was the worst design
> > they could come up with and purposefully left the word
> > god/creator out of the Constitution
> OR.. See my number 1 above.
> > 3) prove Jesus and/or Moses never existed whatsoever and #1
> > #2 become moot points. I chose this path/M.O. It's a lot
> > solid and verifiable.
> I submit that the Hebrew, Greek (including Josephus and Philo),
> and Christian historical records contained in the passages of
> the world-renown, best-selling book of all time, accepted by
> half of the ancient historicists of the world as a valid
> historical record,
Josephus had the one passage forged years later (i.e. original editions are missing the phrase/passage).
No Moses. No Jesus. No Exodus. No monotheistic god (polytheism still remains). There is SOME historical truth to the bible but certainly not all things were historical events. Those that were NOT historical but were symbolic are (to name a few): the flood, Moses, Jesus, Noah, Adam, Eve.
Likewise, no ark either in the story of Noah OR the Epic of Gilgamesh. They're CREATION stories and, as such, by inherent design, there can BE no humans around to have observed the events (i.e. beliefs on how creation occurred).
The Holy Bible, proves that Jesus and Moses
> did in fact exist.
No. It's a circular piece of evidence. Jesus = Mithras = Osiris = many former deities.
> Because YOU don't believe it, doesn't make the words of the
> Bible any less truth.
Truth (philosopical) can be obtained from the bible. "T"ruth with a capital T can not universally be obtained (some can, most can't).
Because you say it's so, is not evidence
> or proof Jesus and Moses never existed.
Moses had a face that glowed from being with god. Why is god associated with light when Genesis doesn't say "let there be ME"? Why would Noah in the Book of Enoch be described in EXACTLY the same was as Jesus is described in Revelation? Surely, Noah can't ALSO be the son of god (i.e. seed of man, son of man).
> I would submit that "your" argument is a "moot" point.
Do you understand the concept of symbolism? Earlier religions has many a piece of artwork (clay or cylinder seal), carvings, etc. to add some more imagery to the stories. One can obviously see prior religions had symbolism contained within them, why not the bible? Ethnocentriicsm (religiosity-centricism)?
For example, in the 1951 sci-fi movie, The Day The Earth Stood Still, the main character symbolizes Jesus.
> But you are free to "try again".
Logic and reason can't be used on believers (proven empirically). All I can suggest is to study the historical use of symbolism and see if Revelation comes up with something new. For example, the attributes of meteorites (physical, empirical, observable, recorded) used as symbolism are items/terms/concepts/phrases such as:
penetrate (from the heavens to the underworld= death)
descent (from the heavens)
resurrection (life comes from the underworld/death to be "reborn" above ground
Let's do a quick search of Revelation for these terms - smoke fire glow heat blaze blazing -
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Revelation 1:13-15 (in Context) Revelation 1 (Whole Chapter)
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Revelation 2:17-19 (in Context) Revelation 2 (Whole Chapter)
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Revelation 3:17-19 (in Context) Revelation 3 (Whole Chapter)
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Revelation 4:4-6 (in Context) Revelation 4 (Whole Chapter)
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Revelation 7:15-17 (in Context) Revelation 7 (Whole Chapter)
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Revelation 8:3-5 (in Context) Revelation 8 (Whole Chapter)
And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Revelation 8:4-6 (in Context) Revelation 8 (Whole Chapter)
The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Revelation 8:6-8 (in Context) Revelation 8 (Whole Chapter)
And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Revelation 8:7-9 (in Context) Revelation 8 (Whole Chapter)
And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Revelation 9:1-3 (in Context) Revelation 9 (Whole Chapter)
And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Revelation 9:2-4 (in Context) Revelation 9 (Whole Chapter)
And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Revelation 9:16-18 (in Context) Revelation 9 (Whole Chapter)
By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Revelation 9:17-19 (in Context) Revelation 9 (Whole Chapter)
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
Revelation 10:1-3 (in Context) Revelation 10 (Whole Chapter)
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Revelation 11:4-6 (in Context) Revelation 11 (Whole Chapter)
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Revelation 13:12-14 (in Context) Revelation 13 (Whole Chapter)
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:9-11 (in Context) Revelation 14 (Whole Chapter)
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:10-12 (in Context) Revelation 14 (Whole Chapter)
And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Revelation 14:17-19 (in Context) Revelation 14 (Whole Chapter)
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Revelation 15:1-3 (in Context) Revelation 15 (Whole Chapter)
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Revelation 15:7-9 (in Context) Revelation 15 (Whole Chapter)
And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Revelation 16:7-9 (in Context) Revelation 16 (Whole Chapter)
And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Revelation 16:8-10 (in Context) Revelation 16 (Whole Chapter)
And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Revelation 17:15-17 (in Context) Revelation 17 (Whole Chapter)
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Revelation 18:7-9 (in Context) Revelation 18 (Whole Chapter)
And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Revelation 18:8-10 (in Context) Revelation 18 (Whole Chapter)
And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Revelation 18:17-19 (in Context) Revelation 18 (Whole Chapter)
And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Revelation 19:2-4 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter)
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Revelation 19:11-13 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter)
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 19:19-21 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter)
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:8-10 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:9-11 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:13-15 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:14-16 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:7-9 (in Context) Revelation 21 (Whole Chapter)
That's a LOT of symbolic elements in there (and all match/mimic meteorites as handed down from the Sumerians and ancient Egyptians).