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Hi Lee,

So you want to debate this again? Yes, all wonderful quotes from these men. But all taken out of context and meaning and completely misinterpreted and twisted with half truths to fit beliefs of Atheists and Agnostics. It's true, the Founders WERE against those people who "claimed" to be Christians, but were in fact hypocrites. This is what they protested, not Christianity itself. Christianity has become "perverted". Jefferson was right. It was MEN who perverted it. He and others were against the "religiosity" of men who would call themselves Christian and were not true followers. BUT, no where in any of these quotes do they "deny" that Chrisitianity itself is invalid.

These men were for the "real Christianity" as presented in the texts of the Holy Bible. They were against the doctrines and teachings of mere men. Hurray for them! They were right!

you quoted:

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan
of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting
"Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus
Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by
the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the
mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and
Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." - Thomas
Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious
Freedom

This is not what Jefferson stated. Here is the full text of Jefferson's Bill for establishing religious freedom and what it "really" states.

[www.geocities.com]


Here's Jefferson's full letter to Charles Thompson from the National Archives along with a collection of this other letters.

[odur.let.rug.nl]

"-- An acquaintance of fifty-two years, for I think ours dates from 1764, calls for an interchange of notice now and then, that we remain in existence, the monuments of another age, and examples of a friendship unaffected by the jarring elements by which we have been surrounded, of revolutions of government, of party and of opinion. I am reminded of this duty by the receipt, through our friend Dr. Patterson, of your synopsis of the four Evangelists. I had procured it as soon as I saw it advertised, and had become familiar with its use; but this copy is the more valued as it comes from your hand. This work bears the stamp of that accuracy which marks everything from you, and will be useful to those who, not taking things on trust, recur for themselves to the fountain of pure morals. I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; IT IS A DOCUMENT IN PROOF THAT I AM A REAL CHRISTIAN, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw.
They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. If I had time I would add to my little book the Greek, Latin and French texts, in columns side by side. And I wish I could subjoin a translation of Gosindi's Syntagma of the doctrines of Epicurus, which, notwithstanding the calumnies of the Stoics and caricatures of Cicero, is the most rational system remaining of the philosophy of the ancients, as frugal of vicious indulgence, and fruitful of virtue as the hyperbolical extravagances of his rival sects."

Here Jefferson states that he IS a Christian, not a deist. Because a true Christian follows the teachings of Jesus Christ and believes he came in the flesh.

He drew his "moral code" from the Doctrines of Jesus and Jesus promoted the law of God.

But you are free to believe what you wish.


And that quote from the Treaty of Tripoli was never really in the treaty.

From the National Archives footnote on the Treaty of Tripoli....

"The Barlow translation of the Treaty of Tripoli is at best a poor attempt at a paraphrase or summary of the sense of the Arabic . . . . Most extraordinary (and wholly unexplained) is the fact that Article 11 of the Barlow translation, with its famous phrase, ‘the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,’ DOES NOT EXIST AT ALL [in the Arabic]. There is no Article 11 [in the Arabic]. The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crude and flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. How that script came to be written and to be regarded, as in the Barlow translation, as Article 11 of the treaty as there written, is a mystery and seemingly must remain so. Nothing in the diplomatic correspondence of the time throws any light whatever on the point."

So I do not trust this "obscure version of the treaty" to be of any value.


Here is John Jay representing all of the Founders in the Federalist Papers....

[memory.loc.gov] Library of Congress site.

"With equal pleasure I have as often taken notice that Providence [God] has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people--a people descended from the SAME ANCESTORS, speaking the same language, professing the SAME RELIGION [What religion? Christianity.], attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs, and who, by their joint counsels, arms, and efforts, fighting side by side throughout a long and bloody war, have nobly established general liberty and independence.

This country and this people seem to have been made for each other, and it appears as if it was the design of Providence [God], that an inheritance so proper and convenient for a band of brethren, united to each other by the strongest ties, should never be split into a number of unsocial, jealous, and alien sovereignties."


you quoted:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the
Christian religion." - John Adams (I don't know where you go this one from)

John Adams never said this. Do you want to challenge me on this?

Here's what John Adams had to say....

"The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity.......I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.....
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]

“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in “the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]

"[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty."
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]

-----------------

In fact I don't where you got most of your quotes. James Madison's quotes? From where? You'd rather trust what someone else "supposes" that the Founders stated? I'd rather trust what they really said in their own words in their own letters and diaries.

What's the point to all of this? Well, for every quote used to justify that Jefferson or any Founder didn't support God or Christianity, or didn't think Jesus was divine, or there should be a separation of Church and State, I can find a document, quote or a letter to counter it.

But you are free to continue if you wish.

kind regards,
Kimberly

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Christians & the "End of Days" 491 SunSword 04-Apr-05 20:28
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 240 Paoputzu 04-Apr-05 23:36
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 230 Kboldt 05-Apr-05 17:18
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 257 Paoputzu 07-Apr-05 12:14
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 174 Jaimi2 05-Apr-05 16:30
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 185 whytebyrd 05-Apr-05 17:41
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 246 Kboldt 05-Apr-05 18:12
I would like to add... 252 Kboldt 06-Apr-05 14:24
And I would like to add... 231 Lee McGiffen 06-Apr-05 16:00
Re: And I would like to add... 230 Kboldt 06-Apr-05 18:06
Re: And I would like to add... 199 JimLewandowski 06-Apr-05 18:18
Re: And I would like to add... 241 Kboldt 06-Apr-05 18:47
Re: And I would like to add... 165 JimLewandowski 06-Apr-05 18:54
Re: And I would like to add... 230 SunSword 06-Apr-05 19:46
Re: And I would like to add... 167 JimLewandowski 06-Apr-05 19:55
Re: And I would like to add... 206 Cesar 06-Apr-05 22:44
more of a deistic take on things 185 JimLewandowski 07-Apr-05 15:22
Re: And I would like to add... 278 Briffits 09-Apr-05 10:26
Re: And I would like to add... 206 Lee McGiffen 12-Apr-05 11:45
Re: And I would like to add... 203 Kboldt 12-Apr-05 13:10
you can approach this "problem" in 3 ways 166 JimLewandowski 12-Apr-05 16:43
Re: you can approach this "problem" in 3 ways 226 Kboldt 12-Apr-05 17:00
Re: you can approach this "problem" in 3 ways 174 JimLewandowski 12-Apr-05 19:00
Re: you can approach this "problem" in 3 ways 225 Kboldt 12-Apr-05 19:56
Re: you can approach this "problem" in 3 ways 182 JimLewandowski 12-Apr-05 20:13
Re: you can approach this "problem" in 3 ways 182 Cesar 12-Apr-05 20:40
Re: you can approach this "problem" in 3 ways 227 Kboldt 12-Apr-05 20:44
I've always felt the phrase "all men are created equal" 177 JimLewandowski 12-Apr-05 23:07
Re: I've always felt the phrase "all men are created equal" 204 Cesar 13-Apr-05 09:45
Re: And I would like to add... 209 SunSword 12-Apr-05 14:06
Re: And I would like to add... 189 Lee McGiffen 13-Apr-05 10:55
then why would Jefferson CUT out of the bible 172 JimLewandowski 06-Apr-05 17:32
Re: then why would Jefferson CUT out of the bible 250 Kboldt 06-Apr-05 18:12
Re: then why would Jefferson CUT out of the bible 195 JimLewandowski 06-Apr-05 18:16
Re: then why would Jefferson CUT out of the bible 177 Joyeuse 09-Apr-05 02:21
forgot the link for information 160 Joyeuse 09-Apr-05 02:36
Re: then why would Jefferson CUT out of the bible 165 Farseeker 11-Apr-05 19:15
in the end, it's all geography 187 JimLewandowski 11-Apr-05 20:57
Re: in the end, it's all geography 167 Farseeker 11-Apr-05 21:28
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 175 Diomede 05-Apr-05 22:10
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 187 Gordon Strachan 07-Apr-05 16:13
No real percentage increase in Evangelical vote for Bush in 2004 232 SunSword 07-Apr-05 17:24
Re: No real percentage increase in Evangelical vote for Bush in 2004 182 Paoputzu 08-Apr-05 01:58
Re: No real percentage increase in Evangelical vote for Bush in 2004 206 SunSword 08-Apr-05 15:09
Re: No real percentage increase in Evangelical vote for Bush in 2004 161 Paoputzu 08-Apr-05 16:39
fundamentalism is on the rise around the globe 169 JimLewandowski 08-Apr-05 17:07
The End is coming... 199 Lee McGiffen 09-Apr-05 08:20
Re: The End is coming... 174 JamesH 09-Apr-05 14:37
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 179 Kattmanndoo 15-Apr-05 03:12
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 199 Cesar 15-Apr-05 07:36
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 160 Gordon Strachan 15-Apr-05 17:11
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 209 SunSword 15-Apr-05 17:20
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 233 Kboldt 15-Apr-05 18:05
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 173 Gordon Strachan 18-Apr-05 15:35
Neo-Cons & "Apocolyptic" Christians 203 SunSword 18-Apr-05 16:41
According to a Newsweek poll... 163 David L 18-Apr-05 22:54
Re: According to a Newsweek poll... 163 Joyeuse 19-Apr-05 00:32
Re: According to a Newsweek poll... 156 JimLewandowski 19-Apr-05 04:18
Re: According to a Newsweek poll... 154 Joyeuse 20-Apr-05 02:49
Re: According to a Newsweek poll... 211 SunSword 20-Apr-05 14:16
Re: According to a Newsweek poll... 171 Joyeuse 21-Apr-05 01:07
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 174 Gordon Strachan 21-Apr-05 15:08
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 215 Paoputzu 21-Apr-05 15:57
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 201 SunSword 21-Apr-05 16:10
Re: Christians & the "End of Days" 224 Gordon Strachan 26-Apr-05 14:52


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