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Rebecca Bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Martin, that's hardly accurate. The last time we
> exchanged views was all of six months ago; a
> friend told me you were on GH's site, which I
> don't normally visit. I could also point out that
> you were the one who first dived, and rather
> aggressively, into the comments on my blog.

Hi Rebecca

First, let me say that I know none of the history between the two of you. However, if Martin responded to an article written by you, that likened his research to a random Walt Disney image, I and, I would think most others, could hardly blame him for wanting to respond swiftly and firmly.


That said, I would like to address you directly on some items that I believe now clearly form the basis of his exploratory work.

1. As I see things, the main reason why Martin and others have decided to rigorously explore the possibility that Gobekli Tepi's animals may represent constellations, is because credentialed archaeologists and historians, like yourself, are of the firm opinion that the Ancients were very interested in the stars.

And so I ask my first question, Rebecca. Do you think that's a reasonable possibility? Yes or no? If no, are you then willing to state, on public record, that you think the whole notion of the "Ancients" making celestial art forms is ridiculous, the kind of off-the-wall premise that really does warrant a Walt Disney parody?


2. I will predict that your answer will be a firm yes. In which case you must concede that Martin's starting point IS reasonable, at least in this regard.

So, then there's the matter of Martin arbitrarily choosing a place in the heavens as a starting point. Surely, you would also agree that the equinox and solstices are among the better choices, and not really "arbitrary" since the Ancients are known to have placed much emphasis on these four positions?

I'm going to guess that you will say yes to this as well, which means that you have accepted Martin's first premise as reasonable, based on ample precedent, and the second, also based on ample precedent.

(The only problem I see at this point, is Martin's mentioning that the mortar on 43, which dates to around 9600 BC, is apparently about 1,000 years off of his proposed match. (Correct me, if I am wrongly paraphrasing here.) I can see why people would strongly object to that, but at this point it seems too early to dismiss his thesis based on what we know about GT. If, at present, there is much disagreement between academics regarding dating, then nobody really is in a position to say that they know Martin must be wrong.)


3. So let's move on, to his test. Martin has already directly acknowledged that he is working with a subjective premise, in presupposing that GT's animals 'may' represent constellations. But does he offer a setting which can be explored objectively, to a significant extent? Perhaps, since GT offers a fixed set of animals, from which hard numbers can be derived, depending on one's test.

As I understand it, the test Martin offers is a very straightforward one that goes like this.

Which one of the following letters look the most like the small letter 'b': Rank them 1 through 5, with 1 being the best match, and 5 being the worst. d , p, s, v, z

What about i:
o z l k x

When one isolates an individual, it becomes very easy to say that whatever ranking they concoct is "purely subjective" (with unstated emphasis on 'pure', usually). But given the choices, common sense predicts that we can strongly expect the rankings to be consistently and significantly skewed in favor of d and p in the first place, and l in the second.

Conversely, anyone who might say that z looks more like b than d, or p, is likely to be so in the minority that others would ask if they are even being serious in making such a claim. I think that you know these, Rebecca. Accordingly, if your goal is to bring down Martin's thesis, you have everything to lose by taking this test.

Strong group consensus lends perception a certain degree of objectivity that is impervious to these kinds of tired, "it's all in the individual's head" criticisms. No longer are we being purely subjective, when the majority says they share the same general conclusions. And since Martin's test has us dealing with a fixed number of choices, from this one can make statistical conclusions that are objectively grounded, to a significant extent, depending on how skewed the results are.

And since other people's rankings will be in general agreement, it is entirely reasonable for Martin to say the expected consensus will very likely be crushingly improbable, which in turn fuels the suggestion that the art on 43 is very possibly nonrandom and tied to the stars.


My one main issue with Martin's idea at this point, is the apparent time difference - a thousand years? - between the mortar dating on 43 vs when the skies matched what he was proposing. That seems like a significant difference, but I would assume that we're still very early into the dating of GT, which is to say that there might be ample wiggle room for Martin to be right at this point. However, and to a point I made earlier, it would appear that presently nobody is well-informed enough to say that one dating is clearly the best one, in a way that appeals to the academic consensus. Simply put, it's probably too early to rule out Martin's premises based on a perceived 1,000-year margin of error.

For all of these reasons I now think that it is quite baseless to insinuate that Martin is deluded and worthy of ridicule, for pursuing his thesis. Like I said, I don't know you, or your history with Martin, Rebecca. But looking in from the outside, I am astonished that such a well-credentialed academic would caricature anybody, let alone another academic, as you did with your Mickey Mouse art.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12-Aug-19 17:28 by Poster Boy.

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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 286 Rebecca Bradley 08-Aug-19 15:21
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 222 Poster Boy 10-Aug-19 23:05
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 277 Poster Boy 11-Aug-19 15:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 237 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 05:58
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 216 Poster Boy 15-Aug-19 03:19
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Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 214 Poster Boy 15-Aug-19 23:19
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Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 216 greengirl5 16-Aug-19 00:14
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 244 Rebecca Bradley 15-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 239 Corpuscles 15-Aug-19 06:03
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 245 Susan Doris 17-Aug-19 10:21
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 250 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:24
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 223 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 12:54
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Re: coming from a casual reader 215 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 15:57
Re: coming from a casual reader 202 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:41
Re: coming from a casual reader 215 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:18
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Re: 280 million years 215 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:23
Re: 280 million years 212 greengirl5 21-Aug-19 06:41
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Re: coming from a casual reader 185 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:46
Re: coming from a casual reader 206 Poster Boy 20-Aug-19 18:06
Re: coming from a casual reader 221 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:33
Re: coming from a casual reader 209 Poster Boy 20-Aug-19 22:29
Re: coming from a casual reader 207 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:52
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Re: Zodiacal Art & Precession 206 Poster Boy 21-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 229 Poster Boy 17-Aug-19 15:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 232 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 08:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 205 Poster Boy 18-Aug-19 16:38
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 210 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 07:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 208 Susan Doris 20-Aug-19 10:23
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 209 Poster Boy 20-Aug-19 19:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 213 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 220 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 22:55
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 226 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 23:16
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 248 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 06:48
The Test? 237 Poster Boy 21-Aug-19 15:59
Re: The Test? 216 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 21:25
Re: The Test? 204 Poster Boy 21-Aug-19 21:58
Re: The Test? 213 Barbelo 21-Aug-19 22:05
Re: The Test? 215 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 22:52
Re: The Test? 221 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 05:31
Re: The Test? 211 Barbelo 22-Aug-19 05:48
Re: The Test? 222 Poster Boy 22-Aug-19 14:21
Revising... The Test? 234 Poster Boy 22-Aug-19 16:48
animal anatomy lesson #1 232 hendrik dirker 22-Aug-19 19:02
Re: animal anatomy lesson #1 244 Poster Boy 22-Aug-19 19:06
Re: animal anatomy 230 hendrik dirker 24-Aug-19 06:09
Re: animal anatomy 240 Poster Boy 24-Aug-19 16:25
Re: Revising... The Test? 218 Rebecca Bradley 24-Aug-19 07:22
Re: Revising... The Test? 205 Poster Boy 24-Aug-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 202 Rebecca Bradley 31-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 204 Poster Boy 31-Aug-19 17:08
Re: Revising... The Test? 191 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 17:32
Re: Revising... The Test? 194 Poster Boy 31-Aug-19 19:52
Re: Revising... The Test? 196 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 172 Poster Boy 01-Sep-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 197 Eddie Larry 01-Sep-19 15:45
Re: Revising... The Test? 199 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:15
Research design perspective 226 drrayeye 14-Aug-19 22:21
Re: Research design perspective 198 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 22:43
Re: Research design perspective 217 Susan Doris 15-Aug-19 05:01
Re: Research design perspective 236 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:08
Re: Research design perspective 217 Poster Boy 17-Aug-19 15:43
Re: Research design perspective 222 drrayeye 17-Aug-19 17:25
Re: Research design perspective 208 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:00
Re: Research design perspective 200 drrayeye 18-Aug-19 21:42
Re: Research design perspective 218 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:32
Re: Research design perspective 214 Corpuscles 19-Aug-19 22:32
Not Science, No Proof 239 Barbelo 18-Aug-19 22:44
Re: Not Science, No Proof 245 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:35
Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 216 Barbelo 19-Aug-19 11:03
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 239 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:58
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 221 Barbelo 20-Aug-19 12:00
Earth orbital antics 251 hendrik dirker 20-Aug-19 18:39
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 276 Martinsw1 11-Aug-19 19:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 248 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 06:12
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 262 Rebecca Bradley 12-Aug-19 06:42
individual subjectivity and objective consensus 247 Poster Boy 12-Aug-19 16:59
Re: individual subjectivity and objective consensus 248 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:40
Other thoughts. 236 Poster Boy 13-Aug-19 16:32
Re: Other thoughts. 227 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 17:48
Re: Other thoughts. 226 Poster Boy 13-Aug-19 18:42
Re: Other thoughts. 230 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 19:06
Reading the book 231 greengirl5 13-Aug-19 22:40
Re: Reading the book 223 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 03:11
Re: Other thoughts. 221 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 01:20
Re: Other thoughts. 230 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 02:51
Re: Other thoughts. 231 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 03:35
Re: Other thoughts. 209 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 03:53
Re: Other thoughts. 219 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 17:54
Re: Other thoughts. 223 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 19:02
Re: Other thoughts. 225 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 19:32
Re: Other thoughts. 218 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 20:24
Re: Other thoughts. 229 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 04:49
Re: Other thoughts. 235 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 05:13
Re: Other thoughts. 226 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 14:35
Dr. Sweatman, in case you didn't know... 297 Poster Boy 09-Aug-19 15:56
The Zodiac 243 hendrik dirker 10-Aug-19 12:00
Re: The Zodiac 238 Poster Boy 10-Aug-19 14:58
Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 224 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 23:15
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 214 Poster Boy 10-Aug-19 23:52
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 238 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:07
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 221 Poster Boy 11-Aug-19 00:20
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 235 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:26
Just been outside to see Scorpius 233 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 11:40
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 229 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 12:51
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 251 Susan Doris 11-Aug-19 12:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 256 Poster Boy 12-Aug-19 14:18
Regarding the wider picture down the line 253 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 16:47
Re: Regarding the wider picture down the line 278 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 263 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 23:13
A new question 204 Poster Boy 01-Sep-19 17:25
Re: A new question 612 Rebecca Bradley 02-Sep-19 04:20


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