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Rebecca Bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Martin, that's hardly accurate. The last time we
> exchanged views was all of six months ago; a
> friend told me you were on GH's site, which I
> don't normally visit. I could also point out that
> you were the one who first dived, and rather
> aggressively, into the comments on my blog.

Hi Rebecca

First, let me say that I know none of the history between the two of you. However, if Martin responded to an article written by you, that likened his research to a random Walt Disney image, I and, I would think most others, could hardly blame him for wanting to respond swiftly and firmly.


That said, I would like to address you directly on some items that I believe now clearly form the basis of his exploratory work.

1. As I see things, the main reason why Martin and others have decided to rigorously explore the possibility that Gobekli Tepi's animals may represent constellations, is because credentialed archaeologists and historians, like yourself, are of the firm opinion that the Ancients were very interested in the stars.

And so I ask my first question, Rebecca. Do you think that's a reasonable possibility? Yes or no? If no, are you then willing to state, on public record, that you think the whole notion of the "Ancients" making celestial art forms is ridiculous, the kind of off-the-wall premise that really does warrant a Walt Disney parody?


2. I will predict that your answer will be a firm yes. In which case you must concede that Martin's starting point IS reasonable, at least in this regard.

So, then there's the matter of Martin arbitrarily choosing a place in the heavens as a starting point. Surely, you would also agree that the equinox and solstices are among the better choices, and not really "arbitrary" since the Ancients are known to have placed much emphasis on these four positions?

I'm going to guess that you will say yes to this as well, which means that you have accepted Martin's first premise as reasonable, based on ample precedent, and the second, also based on ample precedent.

(The only problem I see at this point, is Martin's mentioning that the mortar on 43, which dates to around 9600 BC, is apparently about 1,000 years off of his proposed match. (Correct me, if I am wrongly paraphrasing here.) I can see why people would strongly object to that, but at this point it seems too early to dismiss his thesis based on what we know about GT. If, at present, there is much disagreement between academics regarding dating, then nobody really is in a position to say that they know Martin must be wrong.)


3. So let's move on, to his test. Martin has already directly acknowledged that he is working with a subjective premise, in presupposing that GT's animals 'may' represent constellations. But does he offer a setting which can be explored objectively, to a significant extent? Perhaps, since GT offers a fixed set of animals, from which hard numbers can be derived, depending on one's test.

As I understand it, the test Martin offers is a very straightforward one that goes like this.

Which one of the following letters look the most like the small letter 'b': Rank them 1 through 5, with 1 being the best match, and 5 being the worst. d , p, s, v, z

What about i:
o z l k x

When one isolates an individual, it becomes very easy to say that whatever ranking they concoct is "purely subjective" (with unstated emphasis on 'pure', usually). But given the choices, common sense predicts that we can strongly expect the rankings to be consistently and significantly skewed in favor of d and p in the first place, and l in the second.

Conversely, anyone who might say that z looks more like b than d, or p, is likely to be so in the minority that others would ask if they are even being serious in making such a claim. I think that you know these, Rebecca. Accordingly, if your goal is to bring down Martin's thesis, you have everything to lose by taking this test.

Strong group consensus lends perception a certain degree of objectivity that is impervious to these kinds of tired, "it's all in the individual's head" criticisms. No longer are we being purely subjective, when the majority says they share the same general conclusions. And since Martin's test has us dealing with a fixed number of choices, from this one can make statistical conclusions that are objectively grounded, to a significant extent, depending on how skewed the results are.

And since other people's rankings will be in general agreement, it is entirely reasonable for Martin to say the expected consensus will very likely be crushingly improbable, which in turn fuels the suggestion that the art on 43 is very possibly nonrandom and tied to the stars.


My one main issue with Martin's idea at this point, is the apparent time difference - a thousand years? - between the mortar dating on 43 vs when the skies matched what he was proposing. That seems like a significant difference, but I would assume that we're still very early into the dating of GT, which is to say that there might be ample wiggle room for Martin to be right at this point. However, and to a point I made earlier, it would appear that presently nobody is well-informed enough to say that one dating is clearly the best one, in a way that appeals to the academic consensus. Simply put, it's probably too early to rule out Martin's premises based on a perceived 1,000-year margin of error.

For all of these reasons I now think that it is quite baseless to insinuate that Martin is deluded and worthy of ridicule, for pursuing his thesis. Like I said, I don't know you, or your history with Martin, Rebecca. But looking in from the outside, I am astonished that such a well-credentialed academic would caricature anybody, let alone another academic, as you did with your Mickey Mouse art.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12-Aug-19 17:28 by Poster Boy.

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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 158 Martinsw1 06-Aug-19 09:00
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 105 Martinsw1 08-Aug-19 14:55
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Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 110 Barbelo 09-Aug-19 01:15
Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 113 Edmond 09-Aug-19 16:51
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 97 Poster Boy 08-Aug-19 20:50
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 113 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 04:15
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 106 Martinsw1 08-Aug-19 07:23
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 133 Merrell 08-Aug-19 08:29
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 96 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 17:27
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 144 Rebecca Bradley 08-Aug-19 15:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 122 Poster Boy 08-Aug-19 18:34
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 102 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 03:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 89 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 05:34
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 92 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 05:57
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 86 Poster Boy 10-Aug-19 14:45
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 80 Corpuscles 10-Aug-19 22:37
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 82 Poster Boy 10-Aug-19 23:05
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 117 Poster Boy 11-Aug-19 15:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 92 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 05:58
Props to Corps 81 Poster Boy 12-Aug-19 17:03
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured NONSENSE author for August 2019 126 Corpuscles 09-Aug-19 01:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured NONSENSE author for August 2019 105 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 06:30
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured NONSENSE author for August 2019 98 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 03:46
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 113 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 97 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 10:01
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 127 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 10:40
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 85 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 12:38
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 109 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 13:07
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 127 unchartedxben 09-Aug-19 16:54
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 86 Eddie Larry 10-Aug-19 13:20
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 109 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 15:16
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 87 Martinsw1 11-Aug-19 19:42
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 86 Poster Boy 11-Aug-19 23:27
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 89 Martinsw1 12-Aug-19 08:49
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 84 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:28
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 80 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 18:18
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 82 Barbelo 13-Aug-19 23:46
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 81 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 00:12
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 80 Barbelo 14-Aug-19 04:03
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 76 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 14:26
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 76 Barbelo 14-Aug-19 21:09
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 75 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 21:55
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 71 Poster Boy 15-Aug-19 03:19
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 76 Barbelo 15-Aug-19 04:28
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 78 Poster Boy 15-Aug-19 14:24
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 79 Eddie Larry 15-Aug-19 15:56
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 68 Poster Boy 15-Aug-19 16:49
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 68 Eddie Larry 15-Aug-19 18:35
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Little stone in the middle of nowhere 70 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 23:05
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 74 Poster Boy 15-Aug-19 23:19
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 68 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 23:54
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 75 greengirl5 16-Aug-19 00:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 102 Martinsw1 12-Aug-19 09:06
Re: Your scorpion or your Scorpius is back to front 143 Edmond 12-Aug-19 10:13
Re: Your scorpion or your Scorpius is back to front 81 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:30
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 100 Poster Boy 12-Aug-19 14:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 80 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:33
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Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 95 Poster Boy 13-Aug-19 18:46
Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 82 Martinsw1 14-Aug-19 08:40
Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 83 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 14:11
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Re: Lost or last civilisation? 73 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 00:06
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 86 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 23:01
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 163 Martinsw1 14-Aug-19 08:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 84 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 14:09
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 105 Rebecca Bradley 15-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 92 Corpuscles 15-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 90 cloister 15-Aug-19 07:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 103 Martinsw1 16-Aug-19 08:25
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 84 Poster Boy 16-Aug-19 16:35
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 98 Rebecca Bradley 17-Aug-19 06:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 94 Martinsw1 17-Aug-19 07:59
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 96 Susan Doris 17-Aug-19 10:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 82 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 07:42
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 89 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 106 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 09:08
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 88 Corpuscles 18-Aug-19 22:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 91 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:24
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 80 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 12:54
coming from a casual reader 81 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 14:20
Re: coming from a casual reader 77 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 15:57
Re: coming from a casual reader 68 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:41
Re: coming from a casual reader 71 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:18
280 million years 72 greengirl5 20-Aug-19 21:56
Re: 280 million years 70 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:23
Re: 280 million years 72 greengirl5 21-Aug-19 06:41
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Re: coming from a casual gambler 65 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 21:46
Re: coming from a casual reader 67 Eddie Larry 21-Aug-19 00:03
Re: coming from a casual reader 64 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 01:21
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Re: coming from a casual reader 66 Eddie Larry 21-Aug-19 02:23
Re: coming from a casual reader 77 Poster Boy 20-Aug-19 16:32
Re: coming from a casual reader 63 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:46
Re: coming from a casual reader 69 Poster Boy 20-Aug-19 18:06
Re: coming from a casual reader 75 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:33
Re: coming from a casual reader 64 Poster Boy 20-Aug-19 22:29
Re: coming from a casual reader 64 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:52
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Re: Zodiacal Art & Precession 71 Poster Boy 21-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 90 Poster Boy 17-Aug-19 15:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 87 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 08:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 83 Poster Boy 18-Aug-19 16:38
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 75 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 07:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 69 Susan Doris 20-Aug-19 10:23
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 72 Poster Boy 20-Aug-19 19:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 80 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 78 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 22:55
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 76 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 23:16
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 87 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 06:48
The Test? 101 Poster Boy 21-Aug-19 15:59
Re: The Test? 72 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 21:25
Re: The Test? 59 Poster Boy 21-Aug-19 21:58
Re: The Test? 66 Barbelo 21-Aug-19 22:05
Re: The Test? 68 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 22:52
Re: The Test? 82 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 05:31
Re: The Test? 78 Barbelo 22-Aug-19 05:48
Re: The Test? 75 Poster Boy 22-Aug-19 14:21
Revising... The Test? 94 Poster Boy 22-Aug-19 16:48
animal anatomy lesson #1 95 hendrik dirker 22-Aug-19 19:02
Re: animal anatomy lesson #1 97 Poster Boy 22-Aug-19 19:06
Re: animal anatomy 78 hendrik dirker 24-Aug-19 06:09
Re: animal anatomy 90 Poster Boy 24-Aug-19 16:25
Re: Revising... The Test? 79 Rebecca Bradley 24-Aug-19 07:22
Re: Revising... The Test? 70 Poster Boy 24-Aug-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 60 Rebecca Bradley 31-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 54 Poster Boy 31-Aug-19 17:08
Re: Revising... The Test? 50 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 17:32
Re: Revising... The Test? 56 Poster Boy 31-Aug-19 19:52
Re: Revising... The Test? 59 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 50 Poster Boy 01-Sep-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 51 Eddie Larry 01-Sep-19 15:45
Re: Revising... The Test? 60 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:15
Research design perspective 94 drrayeye 14-Aug-19 22:21
Re: Research design perspective 76 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 22:43
Re: Research design perspective 76 Susan Doris 15-Aug-19 05:01
Re: Research design perspective 87 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:08
Re: Research design perspective 73 Poster Boy 17-Aug-19 15:43
Re: Research design perspective 86 drrayeye 17-Aug-19 17:25
Re: Research design perspective 80 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:00
Re: Research design perspective 75 drrayeye 18-Aug-19 21:42
Re: Research design perspective 78 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:32
Re: Research design perspective 74 Corpuscles 19-Aug-19 22:32
Not Science, No Proof 98 Barbelo 18-Aug-19 22:44
Re: Not Science, No Proof 90 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:35
Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 80 Barbelo 19-Aug-19 11:03
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 94 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:58
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 78 Barbelo 20-Aug-19 12:00
Earth orbital antics 94 hendrik dirker 20-Aug-19 18:39
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 128 Martinsw1 11-Aug-19 19:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 98 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 06:12
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 109 Rebecca Bradley 12-Aug-19 06:42
individual subjectivity and objective consensus 92 Poster Boy 12-Aug-19 16:59
Re: individual subjectivity and objective consensus 94 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:40
Other thoughts. 87 Poster Boy 13-Aug-19 16:32
Re: Other thoughts. 81 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 17:48
Re: Other thoughts. 84 Poster Boy 13-Aug-19 18:42
Re: Other thoughts. 81 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 19:06
Reading the book 78 greengirl5 13-Aug-19 22:40
Re: Reading the book 78 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 03:11
Re: Other thoughts. 80 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 01:20
Re: Other thoughts. 84 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 02:51
Re: Other thoughts. 76 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 03:35
Re: Other thoughts. 76 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 03:53
Re: Other thoughts. 76 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 17:54
Re: Other thoughts. 73 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 19:02
Re: Other thoughts. 77 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 19:32
Re: Other thoughts. 75 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 20:24
Re: Other thoughts. 90 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 04:49
Re: Other thoughts. 89 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 05:13
Re: Other thoughts. 85 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 14:35
Dr. Sweatman, in case you didn't know... 150 Poster Boy 09-Aug-19 15:56
The Zodiac 108 hendrik dirker 10-Aug-19 12:00
Re: The Zodiac 98 Poster Boy 10-Aug-19 14:58
Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 82 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 23:15
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 81 Poster Boy 10-Aug-19 23:52
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 88 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:07
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 86 Poster Boy 11-Aug-19 00:20
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 97 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:26
Just been outside to see Scorpius 95 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 11:40
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 103 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 12:51
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 126 Susan Doris 11-Aug-19 12:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 118 Poster Boy 12-Aug-19 14:18
Regarding the wider picture down the line 123 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 16:47
Re: Regarding the wider picture down the line 127 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 96 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 23:13
A new question 67 Poster Boy 01-Sep-19 17:25
Re: A new question 390 Rebecca Bradley 02-Sep-19 04:20


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