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Rebecca Bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Martin, that's hardly accurate. The last time we
> exchanged views was all of six months ago; a
> friend told me you were on GH's site, which I
> don't normally visit. I could also point out that
> you were the one who first dived, and rather
> aggressively, into the comments on my blog.

Hi Rebecca

First, let me say that I know none of the history between the two of you. However, if Martin responded to an article written by you, that likened his research to a random Walt Disney image, I and, I would think most others, could hardly blame him for wanting to respond swiftly and firmly.


That said, I would like to address you directly on some items that I believe now clearly form the basis of his exploratory work.

1. As I see things, the main reason why Martin and others have decided to rigorously explore the possibility that Gobekli Tepi's animals may represent constellations, is because credentialed archaeologists and historians, like yourself, are of the firm opinion that the Ancients were very interested in the stars.

And so I ask my first question, Rebecca. Do you think that's a reasonable possibility? Yes or no? If no, are you then willing to state, on public record, that you think the whole notion of the "Ancients" making celestial art forms is ridiculous, the kind of off-the-wall premise that really does warrant a Walt Disney parody?


2. I will predict that your answer will be a firm yes. In which case you must concede that Martin's starting point IS reasonable, at least in this regard.

So, then there's the matter of Martin arbitrarily choosing a place in the heavens as a starting point. Surely, you would also agree that the equinox and solstices are among the better choices, and not really "arbitrary" since the Ancients are known to have placed much emphasis on these four positions?

I'm going to guess that you will say yes to this as well, which means that you have accepted Martin's first premise as reasonable, based on ample precedent, and the second, also based on ample precedent.

(The only problem I see at this point, is Martin's mentioning that the mortar on 43, which dates to around 9600 BC, is apparently about 1,000 years off of his proposed match. (Correct me, if I am wrongly paraphrasing here.) I can see why people would strongly object to that, but at this point it seems too early to dismiss his thesis based on what we know about GT. If, at present, there is much disagreement between academics regarding dating, then nobody really is in a position to say that they know Martin must be wrong.)


3. So let's move on, to his test. Martin has already directly acknowledged that he is working with a subjective premise, in presupposing that GT's animals 'may' represent constellations. But does he offer a setting which can be explored objectively, to a significant extent? Perhaps, since GT offers a fixed set of animals, from which hard numbers can be derived, depending on one's test.

As I understand it, the test Martin offers is a very straightforward one that goes like this.

Which one of the following letters look the most like the small letter 'b': Rank them 1 through 5, with 1 being the best match, and 5 being the worst. d , p, s, v, z

What about i:
o z l k x

When one isolates an individual, it becomes very easy to say that whatever ranking they concoct is "purely subjective" (with unstated emphasis on 'pure', usually). But given the choices, common sense predicts that we can strongly expect the rankings to be consistently and significantly skewed in favor of d and p in the first place, and l in the second.

Conversely, anyone who might say that z looks more like b than d, or p, is likely to be so in the minority that others would ask if they are even being serious in making such a claim. I think that you know these, Rebecca. Accordingly, if your goal is to bring down Martin's thesis, you have everything to lose by taking this test.

Strong group consensus lends perception a certain degree of objectivity that is impervious to these kinds of tired, "it's all in the individual's head" criticisms. No longer are we being purely subjective, when the majority says they share the same general conclusions. And since Martin's test has us dealing with a fixed number of choices, from this one can make statistical conclusions that are objectively grounded, to a significant extent, depending on how skewed the results are.

And since other people's rankings will be in general agreement, it is entirely reasonable for Martin to say the expected consensus will very likely be crushingly improbable, which in turn fuels the suggestion that the art on 43 is very possibly nonrandom and tied to the stars.


My one main issue with Martin's idea at this point, is the apparent time difference - a thousand years? - between the mortar dating on 43 vs when the skies matched what he was proposing. That seems like a significant difference, but I would assume that we're still very early into the dating of GT, which is to say that there might be ample wiggle room for Martin to be right at this point. However, and to a point I made earlier, it would appear that presently nobody is well-informed enough to say that one dating is clearly the best one, in a way that appeals to the academic consensus. Simply put, it's probably too early to rule out Martin's premises based on a perceived 1,000-year margin of error.

For all of these reasons I now think that it is quite baseless to insinuate that Martin is deluded and worthy of ridicule, for pursuing his thesis. Like I said, I don't know you, or your history with Martin, Rebecca. But looking in from the outside, I am astonished that such a well-credentialed academic would caricature anybody, let alone another academic, as you did with your Mickey Mouse art.

01010011 01100101 01110010 01101001 01101111 01110101 01110011 00100000 00100010 01000010 00100010



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12-Aug-19 17:28 by Poster Boy.

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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 281 PB Bytes 08-Aug-19 20:50
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 282 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 05:57
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 264 Corpuscles 10-Aug-19 22:37
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 267 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 23:05
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 281 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 05:58
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 265 Barbelo 14-Aug-19 04:03
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 259 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 16:49
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 267 Eddie Larry 15-Aug-19 18:35
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Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 258 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 23:19
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 253 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 23:54
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 261 greengirl5 16-Aug-19 00:14
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 351 Martinsw1 14-Aug-19 08:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 266 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:09
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 295 Rebecca Bradley 15-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 284 Corpuscles 15-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 285 cloister 15-Aug-19 07:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 303 Martinsw1 16-Aug-19 08:25
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 301 PB Bytes 16-Aug-19 16:35
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 283 Martinsw1 17-Aug-19 07:59
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 291 Susan Doris 17-Aug-19 10:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 277 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 07:42
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 307 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 09:08
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 298 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:24
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 266 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 12:54
coming from a casual reader 272 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 14:20
Re: coming from a casual reader 259 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 15:57
Re: coming from a casual reader 249 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:41
Re: coming from a casual reader 263 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:18
280 million years 269 greengirl5 20-Aug-19 21:56
Re: 280 million years 261 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:23
Re: 280 million years 259 greengirl5 21-Aug-19 06:41
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Re: coming from a casual reader 230 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:46
Re: coming from a casual reader 251 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 18:06
Re: coming from a casual reader 264 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:33
Re: coming from a casual reader 255 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 22:29
Re: coming from a casual reader 249 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:52
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Re: Zodiacal Art & Precession 248 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 04:36
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 275 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 08:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 250 PB Bytes 18-Aug-19 16:38
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 260 Susan Doris 20-Aug-19 10:23
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 251 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 19:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 257 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 264 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 22:55
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 279 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 23:16
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 301 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 06:48
The Test? 280 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 15:59
Re: The Test? 262 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 21:25
Re: The Test? 251 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 21:58
Re: The Test? 256 Barbelo 21-Aug-19 22:05
Re: The Test? 261 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 22:52
Re: The Test? 265 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 05:31
Re: The Test? 255 Barbelo 22-Aug-19 05:48
Re: The Test? 267 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 14:21
Revising... The Test? 276 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 16:48
animal anatomy lesson #1 277 hendrik dirker 22-Aug-19 19:02
Re: animal anatomy lesson #1 297 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 19:06
Re: animal anatomy 273 hendrik dirker 24-Aug-19 06:09
Re: animal anatomy 288 PB Bytes 24-Aug-19 16:25
Re: Revising... The Test? 261 Rebecca Bradley 24-Aug-19 07:22
Re: Revising... The Test? 250 PB Bytes 24-Aug-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 244 Rebecca Bradley 31-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 247 PB Bytes 31-Aug-19 17:08
Re: Revising... The Test? 233 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 17:32
Re: Revising... The Test? 240 PB Bytes 31-Aug-19 19:52
Re: Revising... The Test? 238 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 219 PB Bytes 01-Sep-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 241 Eddie Larry 01-Sep-19 15:45
Re: Revising... The Test? 246 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:15
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Re: Research design perspective 243 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 22:43
Re: Research design perspective 262 Susan Doris 15-Aug-19 05:01
Re: Research design perspective 284 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:08
Re: Research design perspective 258 PB Bytes 17-Aug-19 15:43
Re: Research design perspective 267 drrayeye 17-Aug-19 17:25
Re: Research design perspective 255 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:00
Re: Research design perspective 245 drrayeye 18-Aug-19 21:42
Re: Research design perspective 265 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:32
Re: Research design perspective 259 Corpuscles 19-Aug-19 22:32
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Re: Not Science, No Proof 297 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:35
Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 259 Barbelo 19-Aug-19 11:03
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 287 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:58
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 267 Barbelo 20-Aug-19 12:00
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 307 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 06:12
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 308 Rebecca Bradley 12-Aug-19 06:42
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Re: individual subjectivity and objective consensus 295 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:40
Other thoughts. 286 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 16:32
Re: Other thoughts. 274 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 17:48
Re: Other thoughts. 274 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 18:42
Re: Other thoughts. 280 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 19:06
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Re: Reading the book 271 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 03:11
Re: Other thoughts. 267 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 01:20
Re: Other thoughts. 279 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 02:51
Re: Other thoughts. 277 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 03:35
Re: Other thoughts. 255 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 03:53
Re: Other thoughts. 264 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 17:54
Re: Other thoughts. 273 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 19:02
Re: Other thoughts. 274 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 19:32
Re: Other thoughts. 263 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 20:24
Re: Other thoughts. 276 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 04:49
Re: Other thoughts. 284 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 05:13
Re: Other thoughts. 273 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:35
Dr. Sweatman, in case you didn't know... 345 PB Bytes 09-Aug-19 15:56
The Zodiac 285 hendrik dirker 10-Aug-19 12:00
Re: The Zodiac 290 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 14:58
Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 267 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 23:15
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 258 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 23:52
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 282 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:07
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 266 PB Bytes 11-Aug-19 00:20
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 276 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:26
Just been outside to see Scorpius 278 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 11:40
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 274 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 12:51
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 294 Susan Doris 11-Aug-19 12:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 301 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 14:18
Regarding the wider picture down the line 296 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 16:47
Re: Regarding the wider picture down the line 325 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 317 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 23:13
A new question 251 PB Bytes 01-Sep-19 17:25
Re: A new question 699 Rebecca Bradley 02-Sep-19 04:20


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