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Rebecca Bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Martin, that's hardly accurate. The last time we
> exchanged views was all of six months ago; a
> friend told me you were on GH's site, which I
> don't normally visit. I could also point out that
> you were the one who first dived, and rather
> aggressively, into the comments on my blog.

Hi Rebecca

First, let me say that I know none of the history between the two of you. However, if Martin responded to an article written by you, that likened his research to a random Walt Disney image, I and, I would think most others, could hardly blame him for wanting to respond swiftly and firmly.


That said, I would like to address you directly on some items that I believe now clearly form the basis of his exploratory work.

1. As I see things, the main reason why Martin and others have decided to rigorously explore the possibility that Gobekli Tepi's animals may represent constellations, is because credentialed archaeologists and historians, like yourself, are of the firm opinion that the Ancients were very interested in the stars.

And so I ask my first question, Rebecca. Do you think that's a reasonable possibility? Yes or no? If no, are you then willing to state, on public record, that you think the whole notion of the "Ancients" making celestial art forms is ridiculous, the kind of off-the-wall premise that really does warrant a Walt Disney parody?


2. I will predict that your answer will be a firm yes. In which case you must concede that Martin's starting point IS reasonable, at least in this regard.

So, then there's the matter of Martin arbitrarily choosing a place in the heavens as a starting point. Surely, you would also agree that the equinox and solstices are among the better choices, and not really "arbitrary" since the Ancients are known to have placed much emphasis on these four positions?

I'm going to guess that you will say yes to this as well, which means that you have accepted Martin's first premise as reasonable, based on ample precedent, and the second, also based on ample precedent.

(The only problem I see at this point, is Martin's mentioning that the mortar on 43, which dates to around 9600 BC, is apparently about 1,000 years off of his proposed match. (Correct me, if I am wrongly paraphrasing here.) I can see why people would strongly object to that, but at this point it seems too early to dismiss his thesis based on what we know about GT. If, at present, there is much disagreement between academics regarding dating, then nobody really is in a position to say that they know Martin must be wrong.)


3. So let's move on, to his test. Martin has already directly acknowledged that he is working with a subjective premise, in presupposing that GT's animals 'may' represent constellations. But does he offer a setting which can be explored objectively, to a significant extent? Perhaps, since GT offers a fixed set of animals, from which hard numbers can be derived, depending on one's test.

As I understand it, the test Martin offers is a very straightforward one that goes like this.

Which one of the following letters look the most like the small letter 'b': Rank them 1 through 5, with 1 being the best match, and 5 being the worst. d , p, s, v, z

What about i:
o z l k x

When one isolates an individual, it becomes very easy to say that whatever ranking they concoct is "purely subjective" (with unstated emphasis on 'pure', usually). But given the choices, common sense predicts that we can strongly expect the rankings to be consistently and significantly skewed in favor of d and p in the first place, and l in the second.

Conversely, anyone who might say that z looks more like b than d, or p, is likely to be so in the minority that others would ask if they are even being serious in making such a claim. I think that you know these, Rebecca. Accordingly, if your goal is to bring down Martin's thesis, you have everything to lose by taking this test.

Strong group consensus lends perception a certain degree of objectivity that is impervious to these kinds of tired, "it's all in the individual's head" criticisms. No longer are we being purely subjective, when the majority says they share the same general conclusions. And since Martin's test has us dealing with a fixed number of choices, from this one can make statistical conclusions that are objectively grounded, to a significant extent, depending on how skewed the results are.

And since other people's rankings will be in general agreement, it is entirely reasonable for Martin to say the expected consensus will very likely be crushingly improbable, which in turn fuels the suggestion that the art on 43 is very possibly nonrandom and tied to the stars.


My one main issue with Martin's idea at this point, is the apparent time difference - a thousand years? - between the mortar dating on 43 vs when the skies matched what he was proposing. That seems like a significant difference, but I would assume that we're still very early into the dating of GT, which is to say that there might be ample wiggle room for Martin to be right at this point. However, and to a point I made earlier, it would appear that presently nobody is well-informed enough to say that one dating is clearly the best one, in a way that appeals to the academic consensus. Simply put, it's probably too early to rule out Martin's premises based on a perceived 1,000-year margin of error.

For all of these reasons I now think that it is quite baseless to insinuate that Martin is deluded and worthy of ridicule, for pursuing his thesis. Like I said, I don't know you, or your history with Martin, Rebecca. But looking in from the outside, I am astonished that such a well-credentialed academic would caricature anybody, let alone another academic, as you did with your Mickey Mouse art.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12-Aug-19 17:28 by Poster Boy.

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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 266 Martinsw1 06-Aug-19 09:00
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 190 Poster Boy 08-Aug-19 20:50
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 209 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 04:15
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 201 Martinsw1 08-Aug-19 07:23
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 189 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 17:27
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 236 Rebecca Bradley 08-Aug-19 15:21
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 198 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 03:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 169 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 05:34
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 188 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 05:57
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 181 Poster Boy 10-Aug-19 14:45
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 176 Corpuscles 10-Aug-19 22:37
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 176 Poster Boy 10-Aug-19 23:05
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 227 Poster Boy 11-Aug-19 15:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 189 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 05:58
Props to Corps 170 Poster Boy 12-Aug-19 17:03
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured NONSENSE author for August 2019 220 Corpuscles 09-Aug-19 01:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured NONSENSE author for August 2019 192 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 06:30
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 209 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 197 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 10:01
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 255 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 10:40
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 179 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 12:38
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 210 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 13:07
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 198 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 15:16
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 178 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 18:18
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 174 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 00:12
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 177 Barbelo 14-Aug-19 04:03
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 175 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 14:26
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 171 Barbelo 14-Aug-19 21:09
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 164 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 21:55
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 170 Poster Boy 15-Aug-19 03:19
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 169 Barbelo 15-Aug-19 04:28
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 173 Poster Boy 15-Aug-19 14:24
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 181 Eddie Larry 15-Aug-19 15:56
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 167 Poster Boy 15-Aug-19 16:49
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 177 Eddie Larry 15-Aug-19 18:35
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Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 168 Poster Boy 15-Aug-19 23:19
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 163 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 23:54
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 168 greengirl5 16-Aug-19 00:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 201 Martinsw1 12-Aug-19 09:06
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Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 179 Martinsw1 14-Aug-19 08:40
Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 182 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 14:11
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Re: Lost or last civilisation? 167 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 00:06
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 185 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 23:01
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 254 Martinsw1 14-Aug-19 08:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 174 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 14:09
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 196 Rebecca Bradley 15-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 195 Corpuscles 15-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 189 cloister 15-Aug-19 07:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 206 Martinsw1 16-Aug-19 08:25
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 187 Poster Boy 16-Aug-19 16:35
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 198 Rebecca Bradley 17-Aug-19 06:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 188 Martinsw1 17-Aug-19 07:59
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 196 Susan Doris 17-Aug-19 10:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 180 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 07:42
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 197 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 210 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 09:08
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 188 Corpuscles 18-Aug-19 22:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 198 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:24
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 178 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 12:54
coming from a casual reader 182 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 14:20
Re: coming from a casual reader 170 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 15:57
Re: coming from a casual reader 152 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:41
Re: coming from a casual reader 166 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:18
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Re: 280 million years 166 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:23
Re: 280 million years 167 greengirl5 21-Aug-19 06:41
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Re: coming from a casual gambler 161 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 21:46
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Re: coming from a casual reader 161 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 01:21
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Re: coming from a casual reader 168 Poster Boy 20-Aug-19 16:32
Re: coming from a casual reader 142 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:46
Re: coming from a casual reader 162 Poster Boy 20-Aug-19 18:06
Re: coming from a casual reader 173 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:33
Re: coming from a casual reader 162 Poster Boy 20-Aug-19 22:29
Re: coming from a casual reader 161 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:52
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Re: Zodiacal Art & Precession 160 Poster Boy 21-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 183 Poster Boy 17-Aug-19 15:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 184 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 08:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 164 Poster Boy 18-Aug-19 16:38
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 165 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 07:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 166 Susan Doris 20-Aug-19 10:23
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 164 Poster Boy 20-Aug-19 19:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 171 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 175 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 22:55
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 176 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 23:16
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 194 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 06:48
The Test? 191 Poster Boy 21-Aug-19 15:59
Re: The Test? 168 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 21:25
Re: The Test? 160 Poster Boy 21-Aug-19 21:58
Re: The Test? 164 Barbelo 21-Aug-19 22:05
Re: The Test? 167 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 22:52
Re: The Test? 178 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 05:31
Re: The Test? 168 Barbelo 22-Aug-19 05:48
Re: The Test? 173 Poster Boy 22-Aug-19 14:21
Revising... The Test? 187 Poster Boy 22-Aug-19 16:48
animal anatomy lesson #1 186 hendrik dirker 22-Aug-19 19:02
Re: animal anatomy lesson #1 193 Poster Boy 22-Aug-19 19:06
Re: animal anatomy 183 hendrik dirker 24-Aug-19 06:09
Re: animal anatomy 191 Poster Boy 24-Aug-19 16:25
Re: Revising... The Test? 173 Rebecca Bradley 24-Aug-19 07:22
Re: Revising... The Test? 160 Poster Boy 24-Aug-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 155 Rebecca Bradley 31-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 159 Poster Boy 31-Aug-19 17:08
Re: Revising... The Test? 148 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 17:32
Re: Revising... The Test? 154 Poster Boy 31-Aug-19 19:52
Re: Revising... The Test? 151 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 131 Poster Boy 01-Sep-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 147 Eddie Larry 01-Sep-19 15:45
Re: Revising... The Test? 155 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:15
Research design perspective 180 drrayeye 14-Aug-19 22:21
Re: Research design perspective 155 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 22:43
Re: Research design perspective 172 Susan Doris 15-Aug-19 05:01
Re: Research design perspective 188 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:08
Re: Research design perspective 169 Poster Boy 17-Aug-19 15:43
Re: Research design perspective 179 drrayeye 17-Aug-19 17:25
Re: Research design perspective 163 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:00
Re: Research design perspective 157 drrayeye 18-Aug-19 21:42
Re: Research design perspective 169 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:32
Re: Research design perspective 168 Corpuscles 19-Aug-19 22:32
Not Science, No Proof 194 Barbelo 18-Aug-19 22:44
Re: Not Science, No Proof 193 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:35
Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 174 Barbelo 19-Aug-19 11:03
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 192 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:58
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 174 Barbelo 20-Aug-19 12:00
Earth orbital antics 208 hendrik dirker 20-Aug-19 18:39
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 228 Martinsw1 11-Aug-19 19:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 196 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 06:12
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 214 Rebecca Bradley 12-Aug-19 06:42
individual subjectivity and objective consensus 195 Poster Boy 12-Aug-19 16:59
Re: individual subjectivity and objective consensus 200 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:40
Other thoughts. 186 Poster Boy 13-Aug-19 16:32
Re: Other thoughts. 182 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 17:48
Re: Other thoughts. 179 Poster Boy 13-Aug-19 18:42
Re: Other thoughts. 183 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 19:06
Reading the book 179 greengirl5 13-Aug-19 22:40
Re: Reading the book 176 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 03:11
Re: Other thoughts. 174 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 01:20
Re: Other thoughts. 184 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 02:51
Re: Other thoughts. 177 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 03:35
Re: Other thoughts. 161 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 03:53
Re: Other thoughts. 169 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 17:54
Re: Other thoughts. 170 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 19:02
Re: Other thoughts. 178 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 19:32
Re: Other thoughts. 172 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 20:24
Re: Other thoughts. 186 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 04:49
Re: Other thoughts. 187 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 05:13
Re: Other thoughts. 180 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 14:35
Dr. Sweatman, in case you didn't know... 249 Poster Boy 09-Aug-19 15:56
The Zodiac 199 hendrik dirker 10-Aug-19 12:00
Re: The Zodiac 191 Poster Boy 10-Aug-19 14:58
Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 177 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 23:15
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 171 Poster Boy 10-Aug-19 23:52
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 189 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:07
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 178 Poster Boy 11-Aug-19 00:20
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 190 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:26
Just been outside to see Scorpius 191 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 11:40
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 184 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 12:51
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 208 Susan Doris 11-Aug-19 12:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 212 Poster Boy 12-Aug-19 14:18
Regarding the wider picture down the line 211 Poster Boy 14-Aug-19 16:47
Re: Regarding the wider picture down the line 226 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 206 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 23:13
A new question 162 Poster Boy 01-Sep-19 17:25
Re: A new question 529 Rebecca Bradley 02-Sep-19 04:20


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