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Dear Mr. Fenton,

I love a good debate so I anticipate this conversation will be lively. As intent and tone can be misleading in written form, please take any comments as constructive and collegial. My tone can sometimes come off as brusk in written form.

Let us examine the arguments you have presented here:


First your hypothesis, not theory, is just that a hypothesis. Nothing wrong with a hypothesis. OOA is just a hypothesis. Lets talk about the scientific method a second. A hypothesis goes through rounds and rounds of repeated testing and refinement over and over again before it has reached the status of theory and then even more to become a scientific law (this takes years to decades to never). Your idea has not gone through any of this yet and is at best a well supported, in your opinion, hypothesis.



The 44k years, your stating, is on the low end of the range for the event, presuming it was a singular event. This work was done by the Reich laboratory—one of the top labs in the world for ancient genetics. [www.sciencedirect.com] A quote from this paper: “we estimate 44,000–54,000 years ago for Denisovan admixture.” “We caution that the nominal date estimate of 1,000 ± 8 generations ago for Denisovan admixture and 1,121 ± 16 generations ago for Neanderthal admixture are likely to be biased. One source of bias arises from the fact that errors in the genetic map can produce systematic underestimates of dates inferred based on linkage disequilibrium;”

Now this range really overlaps with archeology and DNA evidence show a date range of 47-55 KYA: This initial settlement of Australia occurred between 47–55 KYA, based on the dating of archaeological sites dispersed throughout the continent3,4,5,6,7, and the analysis of contemporary Aboriginal Australian DNA8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18.”



Genetic diveristy has been studied in world wide populations: [med.stanford.edu]
“We compared SNP haplotype heterozygosity across populations and found, consistent with
earlier reports (22), that it is highest in sub-Saharan Africa and decreases steadily with
distance from this region (Fig. 3B). “ “This trend is consistent with a serial
founder effect, a scenario in which population expansion involves successive migration of a
small fraction of individuals out of the previous location, starting from a single origin in sub-
Saharan Africa.” That is a fairly solid statement-note equivocal at all. Now they did not study Australians in this study-but did study Melanesian and Papaun. However, other studies demonstrate that these three groups are on the same clade-with Australians showing some level of isolation of Melanesians and Papaun for the past 30K years.

Using statistical based analysis like Structure, frappe, ADMIXTURE, etcc all show the same thing. Here is one (of many) example see supplemental figure 5: [www.nature.com] All OOA populations are closer to each other than to SSA (K=2). These genetic analyses then consistently split populations into Africa, Eurasia, East asia (K=3) These splits crudely demonstrate how deep the genetic split between populations is. This is all backed up by multiple independent statistical analysis of multiple different genetic features. Not a single one shows genetics coming out of Australia or New Guinea or Melanesia. NOT a single test—ever.
The same testing that could demonstrate admixture very fine structure differentiation in the british isles. That can identify where regionally people come from in the world. NOT ONE.



bf_”Tere is no meaningful evidence that all mtDNA and Y chromosomal data roots in Africa not Australia. ….... This is a huge and wild assumption.”


This is neither unsupported nor is it a wild assertion. Your seemingly of the belief that you need ancient dna to fix the origin of our species. If you waiting for that, you will probably never have an answer, ancient DNA from tropics and subtropics is hard to come by and we may well have met a limit with ~500K years even under better conditions—the DNA just becomes too contaminated and tooo degraded. This may change in the future, but probably not a lot.

Pre-10 years ago, all we had to go on was fundamental population biology and the study of phylogeny and phylo-geography. Well established and well tested methodologies. Have you read the book the Seven Daughters of Eve? Another book that places these complex topics in a way accessible to the lay person. You have heard of mitochondrial eve? With a root of mitochondrial DNA (L0) being around 2180-200k years old and predominantly only L3 daughter mtDNA found outside of africa and sister lineages L1 (east africa), L2, L4, L5, L6 found in africa (an really no where else except a bit in Near east and populations from Slave trade) . This places, firmly, the root of mitochondrial DNA evolution in Africa—there is no debate on this.


BF-“……...Just on the contrary, the oldest M and N haplogroups are detected in southern China and Australasia instead of India, ……….. ages of M and N haplogroups run, against to expectation, westwards with younger haplogroup ages going to Africa.” [www.biorxiv.org] –“

This is an interesting paper and I will need to read it further. But it is a pre-published paper and will likely change before it is published. Regardless, An exit and a return of L3 lineages into africa. Discussed more below.


BF- “…..HgL3 and both HgM & HgN are closely related, they are considered to have emerged at essentially the same time…....”

L3 is defined by 3 main mutations that distinguish it from of it “”mother” L3,4. (http://www.phylotree.org). The mutations are also present within N that has an 5 additional mutations AND M with 4 additional mutations-different from N. The most parsimonious explanation is that they had a common origin. Look here for a reassessment of the timing of divergence for these mtDNA lines: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322232/
look at the supplemental file for dates:
The current best date for L3 is 67kya +/- 4 ky
The current best date for M is 49Kya +/- 1.8ky
The current best date for N is 59kya +/- 2ky

The coalescent ages reported in the biorxiv paper of the mtDNA groups L3, M and N do not align with the seminal work I referenced above. Not to rely to heavily on an authoritative argument here-the paper I reference was done by basically the best mtDNA experts there are in the field. Antonio Torroni , Silva are just the best at this work. Indeed V Cabrera is not a complete neophyte in this area. And has earlier published work showing L3 emerging from africa—disseminating across eurasia just north of the caspian and going across and down into SE asia. Later a dissemination of M1 comes back into western eurasia and africa during the paleolithic. Several other lines suggest a Paleolithic expansion from Near east/Arabia into East Africa and perhaps North africa During the Lgm.

A temporary tangent: During the LGM the carrying capacity of Arabian Glacial Refuges was decreased (Rose, 2010) which correlates with a population expansion outward and into Africa dating to ~23,000 years ago (Gandini et al. 2016, Hodgson et al. 2014, Fernandes et al. 2012, Henn et al. 2012).  The first introgression of Near Eastern genetics in Western Eurasia is seen in DNA extracted from ~18,700 year old toe bone of a female in the El-Miron Cave found in Cantabria Spain and associated with the Magdalenian culture (Fu et al. 2016; Figure 4).  This female was geographically located where the population with Solutrean technology existed and is only 2-400 years past the end of the Solutrean period (Cascalheira and Bicho 2015).  Approximately 63% of the El-Miron individual’s genome came from a Paleolithic Hunter Gatherer population dating to ~36,000 year ago (cal. C14 years BP) and the remaining 37% came from a population with deeply ancestral Near Eastern genetics (Fu et al. 2016).  The source of the Near Eastern genetics in the El Miron genetic grouping has not been directly assessed, but closely related Near Eastern genetics from a Neolithic individual excavated in Loschbour Germany best matches with contemporary Saudi Arabian populations (Lazaridis et al. 2016).  The Near Eastern genetics within El-Miron are modeled to be ancestral to Loschbour with a gap of ~11,000 years (Lazaridis et al. 2014).  Therefore, autosomal genetics place people from the same geographical range from which the X2 mtDNA haplogroup originated (Fernandes et al. 2012) and within a possible time frame to spread into Iberia  during the LGM (Figure 4).  Interestingly, the Southern Arabian regions had a long tradition of bifacial lithic technologies with leaf-like blades present before and during the LGM (Rose 2010).


Back to mtDNA and M1. An expansion out of SE asia would well explain the range and depth of Denisovian heritage—M and Denisovan genetics being mostly Eastern. Makes sense they spread at the same time. A coalescence date pf ~49Kya falls well within the range of introgression of Denisovan genes into AMH and the time frame for archeology evidence of settlement of Australia. It all fits rather nicely.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 4519 Bruce R. Fenton 01-Jun-17 11:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 1023 Susan Doris 02-Jun-17 05:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 802 Bruce R. Fenton 02-Jun-17 06:56
Related threads on GHMB 869 drrayeye 02-Jun-17 17:06
Re: Related threads on GHMB 703 Bruce R. Fenton 03-Jun-17 10:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 742 laughin 05-Jun-17 21:06
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 729 Bruce R. Fenton 06-Jun-17 04:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 730 SallyA 07-Jun-17 02:28
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 618 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 04:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 932 Thanos5150 06-Jun-17 14:29
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 748 SallyA 07-Jun-17 02:55
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 697 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 05:47
... 731 SallyA 08-Jun-17 04:00
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution ..-_-.. question one 645 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 04:37
... 737 SallyA 08-Jun-17 06:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 625 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 16:15
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 758 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 19:38
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 725 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 03:20
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 608 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 05:33
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 921 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 16:08
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 662 SallyA 08-Jun-17 05:17
... 738 SallyA 08-Jun-17 06:06
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 708 Bruce R. Fenton 09-Jun-17 02:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution -- thank you 666 SallyA 09-Jun-17 03:47
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 816 Thanos5150 11-Jun-17 16:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 598 Bruce R. Fenton 12-Jun-17 09:26
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 633 Bruce R. Fenton 09-Jun-17 02:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 717 Thanos5150 09-Jun-17 23:54
OOA strikes back - the sequel 765 laughin 08-Jun-17 13:09
Re: OOA strikes back - the sequel 663 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 15:37
Re: OOA strikes back - the sequel 663 Thanos5150 08-Jun-17 17:23
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 645 Robert Jameson 11-Jun-17 06:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 644 Bruce R. Fenton 11-Jun-17 11:46
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 797 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 05:34
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 655 dong 12-Jun-17 06:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 719 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 13:32
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 724 Bruce R. Fenton 12-Jun-17 09:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 621 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 12:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 691 Susan Doris 14-Jun-17 05:02
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 693 Robert Jameson 14-Jun-17 05:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 719 michael seabrook 13-Jun-17 22:09
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 725 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 00:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 625 SallyA 13-Jun-17 01:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 605 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 02:44
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb. .. Giza hosts an inland sea 792 SallyA 13-Jun-17 02:59
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb 589 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 03:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb 651 SallyA 13-Jun-17 04:04
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 709 Thanos5150 14-Jun-17 15:55
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 785 Robert Jameson 14-Jun-17 17:54
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 610 michael seabrook 16-Jun-17 21:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 629 Robert Jameson 16-Jun-17 22:47
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution Excellent and ... 700 SallyA 16-Jun-17 23:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution Excellent and ... 699 Robert Jameson 17-Jun-17 09:44
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 605 Susan Doris 17-Jun-17 14:17
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 668 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 02:43
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 621 Susan Doris 18-Jun-17 09:24
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 677 Bruce R. Fenton 18-Jun-17 11:04
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 678 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 11:14
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 587 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 11:04
Unfair diversion 518 drrayeye 18-Jun-17 21:35
Re: Proto-sumerian ... Ukraine ... a bit late for into Africa I fear, probably mis-posted 782 SallyA 19-Jun-17 03:00
Re: Unfair diversion 716 Susan Doris 19-Jun-17 05:20
Unfair diversion for sure 605 drrayeye 19-Jun-17 05:47
Re: Unfair diversion for sure 665 Susan Doris 20-Jun-17 04:56
Robert's challenge 706 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 07:24
Re: Robert's challenge 600 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 11:17
Tangential 593 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 05:03
Re: Tangential 604 Robert Jameson 27-Jun-17 06:12
Wrong board 622 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 06:38
Re: Wrong board 578 Robert Jameson 27-Jun-17 08:03
Re: Tangential 614 Eddie Larry 27-Jun-17 15:59
Re:Susan, do you know of a time line? 624 SallyA 19-Jun-17 17:48
Re: Unfair diversion 683 Thanos5150 19-Jun-17 13:44
Re: Unfair diversion 596 drrayeye 19-Jun-17 15:40
Re: Unfair diversion 712 Robert Jameson 19-Jun-17 23:14
Re: Unfair diversion 609 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 00:31
Re: Unfair diversion 679 Robert Jameson 20-Jun-17 10:19
kicking a dead horse 621 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 14:36
Re: kicking a dead horse 526 Robert Jameson 20-Jun-17 23:49
Staying on topic 607 drrayeye 21-Jun-17 01:15
Re: Unfair diversion 619 Thanos5150 20-Jun-17 15:24
Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 545 SallyA 20-Jun-17 15:59
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 515 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 10:21
Interesting 593 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 06:50
Re: Interesting 479 Bruce R. Fenton 27-Jun-17 22:32
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 485 Eddie Larry 28-Jun-17 04:37
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 829 Bruce R. Fenton 28-Jun-17 04:41
Re: Unfair diversion 562 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 15:59
Off Topic: re: factors which alter .. Earth's shields don't block cygnets ... nor neutrinos, ... 538 SallyA 20-Jun-17 21:13
Re: Unfair diversion 514 SallyA 21-Jun-17 01:37
Focus 613 drrayeye 21-Jun-17 07:30
Re: Focus 682 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 10:26
Re: Focus 587 Susan Doris 26-Jun-17 16:51
Re: Focus... ah, my bad ... 492 SallyA 11-Feb-18 19:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 683 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Jun-17 12:12
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 615 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 06:32
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 594 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 11:57
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 742 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 13:59
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 429 lalbee 16-Feb-18 13:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 411 lalbee 17-Feb-18 02:25
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 428 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Feb-18 04:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 408 lalbee 17-Feb-18 05:56
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 433 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Feb-18 06:27
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 565 lalbee 18-Feb-18 15:17
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 440 drrayeye 21-Feb-18 13:48
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 421 lalbee 22-Feb-18 16:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 419 Robert Jameson 22-Feb-18 19:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 801 Bruce R. Fenton 22-Feb-18 23:07
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 431 Bruce R. Fenton 22-Feb-18 23:00


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