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Hi Bruce.

Bruce R. Fenton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First off let me say I do not see the
> contradiction between these two statements:
>
> "Examination of the recent conclusions associated
> with the analysis of Homo erectus skulls in the
> Georgian Republic confirms that several species of
> hominins in Africa are in fact nothing more than
> expected variance within the greater H. erectus
> population."
>
> "These matters are more complicated than first
> glance. The findings of the Dmanisi site actually
> included the strong suggestion that Homo habilis
> (and similair hominins in Africa) represent early
> H. erectus forms."
>
> These seem to me just two ways of saying the same
> thing, as best as I can see.

Lol. You are correct, they are not a contradiction- the fault is mine. In my haste I missed the last bit of the second comment. Apologies. Things get muddled when I get to that 5th remaining brain cell. That's ok though because its inspired you to delve into it further.

> My point being that
> most African hominin fossils we know of are, in
> fact, representative of Homo erectus.
> I should
> have added that the this is for fossils dating
> between 2.5 million years ago to around 1 million
> years ago, including European and Asian fossils.
> This provides a new view of our family tree.

Do you think it worthwhile to separate African and Asian Erectus, i.e. Homo ergaster and Homo erectus?

> In response to your comment:
>
> "Well, it is by no means a “fact” but rather
> opinion to explain [away] the implications of
> having multiple species outside of Africa at such
> an early date."
>
> It may not be a rock solid undeniable fact (such
> are hard to come by) but I don't agree that this
> latest finding is just given to explain away any
> implications of having multiple species outside of
> Africa early on, even having the same species
> outside Africa at such times is problematic for
> the mainstream.

I fail to see how it falls under the "fact" category at all as to do so changes many of the very "facts" human speciation is built on in which it is these very differences that give classification to many of the different species and sub-species. Its ok to do away with this and chalk it up to variation, but to do so I think means the entire hominin line needs to be reevaluated all the same. To look at the Dmanisis skulls again, this is quite the motley crew:


Homo ergaster cranial capacity is between 700-900cc which I believe only skull 1 of the Dmanisi finds fall in this range at 780cc, whereas all the others are well below, around 600-650cc, with skull 5 at a meager 546cc. This kind of variation is found across other species as well, sometimes greater, including modern humans, so these differences in and of themselves are not enough regardless of the fact most are well below what is to be expected, but in conjunction with these are stark morphological differences which taken together I do not believe constitute variation within a species, but rather different species entirely. Further to consider is that such differences would be expected to be found across a large sample of the population, but this is the population at Dmanisi, all found together, which I do not believe such variance has ever been found in any species before, across the whole let alone within one group. Highly unusual.

> The multiple species model is the
> dominant perspective so few scientists are very
> interested in explaining it away (other than
> perhaps a handful of radicals).

Right, but how does Homo habilis or the like get out of Africa let alone so far out of Africa? It makes no sense unless he (the "Dmanisi Habilis") originated outside of Africa as well which is not something most scientists, at least Out of Africa proponents which is the dominant view, are willing to consider.

> The Dmanisi team
> simply recognised that the morphological diversity
> observed among the five skulls (which are
> universally accepted as being from H. erectus) was
> so incredibly high that there was no longer any
> solid basis upon which to place the multiple
> species model -

But why are they universally accepted as Erectus? This is what I am driving at as the only reason this is offered is to explain why they are all found together outside of Africa. If you took these skulls and placed them in different areas around Africa I guarantee they would not all be considered the same species with some being Habilis or the like and at least skull 1 being Erectus, with some I bet would even be hailed as a "new intermediary species" from Habilis to Erectus.

It is this very morphological diversity that the multiple species (and sub-species) model is founded and if it is to be abandoned for the Dmanisi finds all other species need to be reevaluated as well.

> which is currently based on the
> same level of morphological diversity across
> geographic regions. Morphological diversity alone
> is no longer a sufficient reason to claim multiple
> species if we have real world data telling us that
> Homo erectus were immensely diverse in their
> anatomy and skull morphology.

This is true and many arguments have been made in this regard to other species, namely the myriad of sub species classifications, but also different genus i.e. Australopithecus and Paranthropus.

> What other evidence
> do we have to argue multiple species across
> regions between 2.5 - 1 million years ago?

At this point either the morphology is enough to classify them separately, which personally for some I think it definitely is, or it isn't, though to some degree I would say the tool industry found has some say in this which in Homo erectus's case maybe the qualifier needed to distinguish them is "archulean" and "non-archulean" perhaps.

> As for the discussion about Early Modern Humans vs
> Fully Modern Humans, this is a slippery area. What
> really makes us fully modern humans? Is it simply
> having hugely reduced brow ridges and a more
> gracile form, or is it all the behavioural traits?
> What exactly is the criteria?

Though technically each can be assessed separately, I would say most definitely behavioral though they would appear to be directly related as it is not just how they "look", but rather it is this very morphology that allowed the human brain to develop to achieve such modernity, namely the higher vertical transition of the frontal bone that allowed the frontal lobe to more fully develop. Regardless, it is not our anatomy that sets us apart from other hominins but our behavior, ultimately the definition of what it means to be to be "human". To paraphrase James Shreeve from Neanderthal Enigma, the maddening thing about all species of hominins is that despite their long existence, they did not progress, i.e. build on previous successes, and if anything regressed towards their ends. Homo sapiens were no different as despite "modern humans" having been around for supposedly 200,000yrs he didn't start acting like a modern human until around 45,000yrs ago with the arrival of Cro-Magnon in Europe, who also just so happens to have the tell-tale cranial morphology of what we consider to be fully anatomically modern, something which is not present in Africa before. This means something.

> We now know that the first Homo sapiens, our
> ancestors that diverged away from Neanderthals,
> Denisovans and the shared ancestor, were on that
> lonesome path by around 700,000 years ago.

The consensus so far is sometime between 800,000-300,000yrs ago with recent analysis of a tooth suggesting this may have been earlier:
Quote

The new study contradicts this idea. The tooth reconstruction of the last common ancestor of humans and Neanderthals created by Gómez-Robles and colleagues doesn't match the teeth of H. heidelbergensis.

In fact, the researchers found that none of the human species living during the time predicted by genetic data fit the tooth pattern generated by the new study. More than that, "European species that might be candidates show morphological affinities with Neanderthals," Gómez-Robles says, which hints that these humans were already on the Neanderthal side of the split.

This suggests that the last common ancestor of H. sapiens and Neanderthals lived sometime earlier, perhaps as far back as one million years ago.
Much Earlier Split for Neanderthals, Humans?

> In the
> most literal sense then, Homo sapiens have been
> around from perhaps 700,000 years ago, these would
> be the true early humans. When did they become
> early modern humans and when did they become
> modern humans? What is the criteria for these
> stages and are there really such clearly defined
> stages at all?

Without the behavior-what does it matter as otherwise we are no different than any other hominin?

> This all needs rethinking, now that we know our
> line is MUCH older than previously understood (as
> explained in my opening article).

I have to say, as interesting as this may be, I really do not think it matters as whatever our "line" may have been, or how old it may be, it is otherwise no less far removed from fully anatomical and behavioral modern humans as any other species of hominin.

> We also see
> modern behaviour much earlier than believed,
> including use of watercraft and production of
> abstract art.

Can you give examples? I assume I know what you are reffering to. I would address Blombos cave from a previous thread:
Quote

The problem with Blombos cave, supposedly occupied from 100,000-70,000ya and again around 2,000-300ya, is that it is wholly unique-nothing like it found before or after anywhere prior to Eurasia c. 40,000ya. Even the style of tool is extremely similar to a kind not found until 20,000ya in Europe. Beads and bone tools found in the cave aren't convincingly found until after 40,000ya as well yet there they are in Blombos cave completely isolated from the rest of the world for 30,000yrs? Here is the "revolutionary" Blombos "artwork":

A bit of a leap with virtually nothing in between from that to this:


Regardless, Blombos cave is arguably the most out of place discovery in the history of anatomically modern humans as before and after, a time spanning at least 100,000yrs, there is nothing but a veritable wasteland of progress with nothing leading up to it and nothing following it for at least 30,000yrs. Even if this discovery is valid, there is a quantum leap between what is found here and what occurs after 40,000ya with nothing to show for it in between which has hardly anything to do with "climate". There is still a large gap between anatomically modern humans and behaviorally modern humans which despite Blombos cave its beginnings still point to the arrival of Cro-Magnon in Europe c. 40,000ya. Whatever progress was made by the Blombos culture it lived and died with them in that cave. And for what its worth, no bones have yet to be discovered there either.

> Conversely we see archaic traits
> surviving much later than previously understood,
> just look at the
> [url=http://www.peterbrown-palaeoanthropology.net/
> WLH50.html]fossils of WLH50[/url].

This is interesting, but the dating seems rather up in the air so to say it is in fact much later in reality is unknown. It may well not be, but to be fair it does have a close parallel with the Ngandong hominid of Java (Homo erectus), also controversially given a relatively young date. But what these seem to point to is not necessarily later dates for archaic traits in Homo sapiens, but rather a longer existence of Homo erectus, also quite interesting. Also to be considered is the geography of the Pleistocene in these regions were much different with much more land mass. If the artifacts found on Socotra are in fact Homo erectus (based on nothing more than the period of dating), this means they would have had to have traversed open water which conditions to do so would be even more favorable in the Pleistocene to get to Australia. Then you have the Crete finds dated to 130,000yrs which also suggest crossing open water, though the Mediterranean at the time would have been significantly different as well.

> Your intuition on possible problems with some
> aspects of archaeogentics, like dating mutations,
> especially when divorced from physical fossil
> evidence, is very astute. You might find these
> papers of some interest,
> [url=http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(
> 12)00146-2]here[/url],
> [url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19821901]
> here[/url] and
> [url=http://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles
> /10.1186/1471-2148-9-54]here[/url].

I will check those out. Thanks.

> Thank you for your points and I do hope you will
> continue to question my claims!

All good. If you were not being challenged I would say you were doing something wrong.

I do not want to monopolize your time so I encourage others to chime in here.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07-Jun-17 16:24 by Thanos5150.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 4519 Bruce R. Fenton 01-Jun-17 11:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 1023 Susan Doris 02-Jun-17 05:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 802 Bruce R. Fenton 02-Jun-17 06:56
Related threads on GHMB 869 drrayeye 02-Jun-17 17:06
Re: Related threads on GHMB 703 Bruce R. Fenton 03-Jun-17 10:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 742 laughin 05-Jun-17 21:06
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 729 Bruce R. Fenton 06-Jun-17 04:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 730 SallyA 07-Jun-17 02:28
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 618 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 04:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 932 Thanos5150 06-Jun-17 14:29
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 748 SallyA 07-Jun-17 02:55
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 697 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 05:47
... 731 SallyA 08-Jun-17 04:00
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution ..-_-.. question one 645 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 04:37
... 737 SallyA 08-Jun-17 06:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 625 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 16:15
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 758 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 19:38
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 725 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 03:20
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 608 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 05:33
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 920 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 16:08
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 662 SallyA 08-Jun-17 05:17
... 738 SallyA 08-Jun-17 06:06
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 708 Bruce R. Fenton 09-Jun-17 02:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution -- thank you 666 SallyA 09-Jun-17 03:47
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 816 Thanos5150 11-Jun-17 16:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 598 Bruce R. Fenton 12-Jun-17 09:26
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 633 Bruce R. Fenton 09-Jun-17 02:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 717 Thanos5150 09-Jun-17 23:54
OOA strikes back - the sequel 765 laughin 08-Jun-17 13:09
Re: OOA strikes back - the sequel 663 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 15:37
Re: OOA strikes back - the sequel 663 Thanos5150 08-Jun-17 17:23
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 645 Robert Jameson 11-Jun-17 06:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 644 Bruce R. Fenton 11-Jun-17 11:46
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 797 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 05:34
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 655 dong 12-Jun-17 06:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 719 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 13:32
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 724 Bruce R. Fenton 12-Jun-17 09:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 621 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 12:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 691 Susan Doris 14-Jun-17 05:02
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 692 Robert Jameson 14-Jun-17 05:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 719 michael seabrook 13-Jun-17 22:09
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 725 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 00:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 625 SallyA 13-Jun-17 01:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 605 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 02:44
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb. .. Giza hosts an inland sea 792 SallyA 13-Jun-17 02:59
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb 589 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 03:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb 651 SallyA 13-Jun-17 04:04
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 709 Thanos5150 14-Jun-17 15:55
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 785 Robert Jameson 14-Jun-17 17:54
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 610 michael seabrook 16-Jun-17 21:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 629 Robert Jameson 16-Jun-17 22:47
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution Excellent and ... 700 SallyA 16-Jun-17 23:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution Excellent and ... 699 Robert Jameson 17-Jun-17 09:44
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 605 Susan Doris 17-Jun-17 14:17
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 668 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 02:43
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 621 Susan Doris 18-Jun-17 09:24
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 677 Bruce R. Fenton 18-Jun-17 11:04
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 678 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 11:14
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 587 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 11:04
Unfair diversion 518 drrayeye 18-Jun-17 21:35
Re: Proto-sumerian ... Ukraine ... a bit late for into Africa I fear, probably mis-posted 782 SallyA 19-Jun-17 03:00
Re: Unfair diversion 716 Susan Doris 19-Jun-17 05:20
Unfair diversion for sure 605 drrayeye 19-Jun-17 05:47
Re: Unfair diversion for sure 665 Susan Doris 20-Jun-17 04:56
Robert's challenge 706 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 07:24
Re: Robert's challenge 600 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 11:17
Tangential 593 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 05:03
Re: Tangential 604 Robert Jameson 27-Jun-17 06:12
Wrong board 622 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 06:38
Re: Wrong board 578 Robert Jameson 27-Jun-17 08:03
Re: Tangential 614 Eddie Larry 27-Jun-17 15:59
Re:Susan, do you know of a time line? 624 SallyA 19-Jun-17 17:48
Re: Unfair diversion 683 Thanos5150 19-Jun-17 13:44
Re: Unfair diversion 596 drrayeye 19-Jun-17 15:40
Re: Unfair diversion 712 Robert Jameson 19-Jun-17 23:14
Re: Unfair diversion 609 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 00:31
Re: Unfair diversion 679 Robert Jameson 20-Jun-17 10:19
kicking a dead horse 621 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 14:36
Re: kicking a dead horse 526 Robert Jameson 20-Jun-17 23:49
Staying on topic 607 drrayeye 21-Jun-17 01:15
Re: Unfair diversion 619 Thanos5150 20-Jun-17 15:24
Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 545 SallyA 20-Jun-17 15:59
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 515 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 10:21
Interesting 592 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 06:50
Re: Interesting 479 Bruce R. Fenton 27-Jun-17 22:32
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 485 Eddie Larry 28-Jun-17 04:37
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 829 Bruce R. Fenton 28-Jun-17 04:41
Re: Unfair diversion 562 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 15:59
Off Topic: re: factors which alter .. Earth's shields don't block cygnets ... nor neutrinos, ... 538 SallyA 20-Jun-17 21:13
Re: Unfair diversion 514 SallyA 21-Jun-17 01:37
Focus 613 drrayeye 21-Jun-17 07:30
Re: Focus 682 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 10:26
Re: Focus 587 Susan Doris 26-Jun-17 16:51
Re: Focus... ah, my bad ... 492 SallyA 11-Feb-18 19:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 683 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Jun-17 12:12
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 615 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 06:32
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 594 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 11:57
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 742 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 13:59
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 429 lalbee 16-Feb-18 13:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 411 lalbee 17-Feb-18 02:25
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 428 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Feb-18 04:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 408 lalbee 17-Feb-18 05:56
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 433 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Feb-18 06:27
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 565 lalbee 18-Feb-18 15:17
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 440 drrayeye 21-Feb-18 13:48
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 421 lalbee 22-Feb-18 16:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 419 Robert Jameson 22-Feb-18 19:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 801 Bruce R. Fenton 22-Feb-18 23:07
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 431 Bruce R. Fenton 22-Feb-18 23:00


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