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Hi Lee,

Thank you very much for your comment, it is good to get the discussion rolling along. It might have been easier to split your post into parts, but I will try to address it as is.

First off let me say I do not see the contradiction between these two statements:

"Examination of the recent conclusions associated with the analysis of Homo erectus skulls in the Georgian Republic confirms that several species of hominins in Africa are in fact nothing more than expected variance within the greater H. erectus population."

"These matters are more complicated than first glance. The findings of the Dmanisi site actually included the strong suggestion that Homo habilis (and similair hominins in Africa) represent early H. erectus forms."

These seem to me just two ways of saying the same thing, as best as I can see. My point being that most African hominin fossils we know of are, in fact, representative of Homo erectus. I should have added that the this is for fossils dating between 2.5 million years ago to around 1 million years ago, including European and Asian fossils. This provides a new view of our family tree.

In response to your comment:

"Well, it is by no means a “fact” but rather opinion to explain [away] the implications of having multiple species outside of Africa at such an early date."

It may not be a rock solid undeniable fact (such are hard to come by) but I don't agree that this latest finding is just given to explain away any implications of having multiple species outside of Africa early on, even having the same species outside Africa at such times is problematic for the mainstream. The multiple species model is the dominant perspective so few scientists are very interested in explaining it away (other than perhaps a handful of radicals). The Dmanisi team simply recognised that the morphological diversity observed among the five skulls (which are universally accepted as being from H. erectus) was so incredibly high that there was no longer any solid basis upon which to place the multiple species model - which is currently based on the same level of morphological diversity across geographic regions. Morphological diversity alone is no longer a sufficient reason to claim multiple species if we have real world data telling us that Homo erectus were immensely diverse in their anatomy and skull morphology. What other evidence do we have to argue multiple species across regions between 2.5 - 1 million years ago?

As for the discussion about Early Modern Humans vs Fully Modern Humans, this is a slippery area. What really makes us fully modern humans? Is it simply having hugely reduced brow ridges and a more gracile form, or is it all the behavioural traits? What exactly is the criteria?

We now know that the first Homo sapiens, our ancestors that diverged away from Neanderthals, Denisovans and the shared ancestor, were on that lonesome path by around 700,000 years ago. In the most literal sense then, Homo sapiens have been around from perhaps 700,000 years ago, these would be the true early humans. When did they become early modern humans and when did they become modern humans? What is the criteria for these stages and are there really such clearly defined stages at all?

This all needs rethinking, now that we know our line is MUCH older than previously understood (as explained in my opening article). We also see modern behaviour much earlier than believed, including use of watercraft and production of abstract art. Conversely we see archaic traits surviving much later than previously understood, just look at the fossils of WLH50.

Your intuition on possible problems with some aspects of archaeogentics, like dating mutations, especially when divorced from physical fossil evidence, is very astute. You might find these papers of some interest, here, here and here.

Thank you for your points and I do hope you will continue to question my claims!

Best regards

Bruce



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07-Jun-17 05:34 by Bruce R. Fenton.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 4427 Bruce R. Fenton 01-Jun-17 11:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 957 Susan Doris 02-Jun-17 05:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 779 Bruce R. Fenton 02-Jun-17 06:56
Related threads on GHMB 842 drrayeye 02-Jun-17 17:06
Re: Related threads on GHMB 674 Bruce R. Fenton 03-Jun-17 10:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 720 laughin 05-Jun-17 21:06
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 689 Bruce R. Fenton 06-Jun-17 04:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 706 SallyA 07-Jun-17 02:28
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 595 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 04:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 872 Thanos5150 06-Jun-17 14:29
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 725 SallyA 07-Jun-17 02:55
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 662 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 05:47
... 704 SallyA 08-Jun-17 04:00
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution ..-_-.. question one 622 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 04:37
... 702 SallyA 08-Jun-17 06:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 600 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 16:15
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 733 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 19:38
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 703 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 03:20
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 583 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 05:33
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 845 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 16:08
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 639 SallyA 08-Jun-17 05:17
... 711 SallyA 08-Jun-17 06:06
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 684 Bruce R. Fenton 09-Jun-17 02:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution -- thank you 642 SallyA 09-Jun-17 03:47
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 765 Thanos5150 11-Jun-17 16:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 575 Bruce R. Fenton 12-Jun-17 09:26
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 606 Bruce R. Fenton 09-Jun-17 02:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 694 Thanos5150 09-Jun-17 23:54
OOA strikes back - the sequel 737 laughin 08-Jun-17 13:09
Re: OOA strikes back - the sequel 635 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 15:37
Re: OOA strikes back - the sequel 639 Thanos5150 08-Jun-17 17:23
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 616 Robert Jameson 11-Jun-17 06:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 617 Bruce R. Fenton 11-Jun-17 11:46
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 773 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 05:34
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 628 dong 12-Jun-17 06:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 683 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 13:32
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 696 Bruce R. Fenton 12-Jun-17 09:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 597 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 12:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 667 Susan Doris 14-Jun-17 05:02
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 668 Robert Jameson 14-Jun-17 05:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 692 michael seabrook 13-Jun-17 22:09
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 695 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 00:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 598 SallyA 13-Jun-17 01:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 581 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 02:44
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb. .. Giza hosts an inland sea 758 SallyA 13-Jun-17 02:59
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb 563 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 03:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb 623 SallyA 13-Jun-17 04:04
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 679 Thanos5150 14-Jun-17 15:55
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 760 Robert Jameson 14-Jun-17 17:54
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 586 michael seabrook 16-Jun-17 21:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 603 Robert Jameson 16-Jun-17 22:47
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution Excellent and ... 673 SallyA 16-Jun-17 23:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution Excellent and ... 675 Robert Jameson 17-Jun-17 09:44
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 584 Susan Doris 17-Jun-17 14:17
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 647 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 02:43
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 596 Susan Doris 18-Jun-17 09:24
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 654 Bruce R. Fenton 18-Jun-17 11:04
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 649 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 11:14
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 563 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 11:04
Unfair diversion 490 drrayeye 18-Jun-17 21:35
Re: Proto-sumerian ... Ukraine ... a bit late for into Africa I fear, probably mis-posted 753 SallyA 19-Jun-17 03:00
Re: Unfair diversion 693 Susan Doris 19-Jun-17 05:20
Unfair diversion for sure 581 drrayeye 19-Jun-17 05:47
Re: Unfair diversion for sure 639 Susan Doris 20-Jun-17 04:56
Robert's challenge 666 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 07:24
Re: Robert's challenge 575 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 11:17
Tangential 571 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 05:03
Re: Tangential 581 Robert Jameson 27-Jun-17 06:12
Wrong board 598 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 06:38
Re: Wrong board 554 Robert Jameson 27-Jun-17 08:03
Re: Tangential 588 Eddie Larry 27-Jun-17 15:59
Re:Susan, do you know of a time line? 602 SallyA 19-Jun-17 17:48
Re: Unfair diversion 659 Thanos5150 19-Jun-17 13:44
Re: Unfair diversion 574 drrayeye 19-Jun-17 15:40
Re: Unfair diversion 683 Robert Jameson 19-Jun-17 23:14
Re: Unfair diversion 584 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 00:31
Re: Unfair diversion 651 Robert Jameson 20-Jun-17 10:19
kicking a dead horse 599 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 14:36
Re: kicking a dead horse 503 Robert Jameson 20-Jun-17 23:49
Staying on topic 583 drrayeye 21-Jun-17 01:15
Re: Unfair diversion 589 Thanos5150 20-Jun-17 15:24
Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 519 SallyA 20-Jun-17 15:59
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 491 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 10:21
Interesting 569 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 06:50
Re: Interesting 458 Bruce R. Fenton 27-Jun-17 22:32
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 465 Eddie Larry 28-Jun-17 04:37
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 793 Bruce R. Fenton 28-Jun-17 04:41
Re: Unfair diversion 535 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 15:59
Off Topic: re: factors which alter .. Earth's shields don't block cygnets ... nor neutrinos, ... 510 SallyA 20-Jun-17 21:13
Re: Unfair diversion 488 SallyA 21-Jun-17 01:37
Focus 585 drrayeye 21-Jun-17 07:30
Re: Focus 650 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 10:26
Re: Focus 563 Susan Doris 26-Jun-17 16:51
Re: Focus... ah, my bad ... 468 SallyA 11-Feb-18 19:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 651 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Jun-17 12:12
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 592 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 06:32
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 571 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 11:57
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 715 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 13:59
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 405 lalbee 16-Feb-18 13:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 386 lalbee 17-Feb-18 02:25
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 404 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Feb-18 04:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 384 lalbee 17-Feb-18 05:56
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 406 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Feb-18 06:27
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 526 lalbee 18-Feb-18 15:17
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 410 drrayeye 21-Feb-18 13:48
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 396 lalbee 22-Feb-18 16:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 392 Robert Jameson 22-Feb-18 19:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 747 Bruce R. Fenton 22-Feb-18 23:07
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 402 Bruce R. Fenton 22-Feb-18 23:00


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