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Hi Lee,

Thank you very much for your comment, it is good to get the discussion rolling along. It might have been easier to split your post into parts, but I will try to address it as is.

First off let me say I do not see the contradiction between these two statements:

"Examination of the recent conclusions associated with the analysis of Homo erectus skulls in the Georgian Republic confirms that several species of hominins in Africa are in fact nothing more than expected variance within the greater H. erectus population."

"These matters are more complicated than first glance. The findings of the Dmanisi site actually included the strong suggestion that Homo habilis (and similair hominins in Africa) represent early H. erectus forms."

These seem to me just two ways of saying the same thing, as best as I can see. My point being that most African hominin fossils we know of are, in fact, representative of Homo erectus. I should have added that the this is for fossils dating between 2.5 million years ago to around 1 million years ago, including European and Asian fossils. This provides a new view of our family tree.

In response to your comment:

"Well, it is by no means a “fact” but rather opinion to explain [away] the implications of having multiple species outside of Africa at such an early date."

It may not be a rock solid undeniable fact (such are hard to come by) but I don't agree that this latest finding is just given to explain away any implications of having multiple species outside of Africa early on, even having the same species outside Africa at such times is problematic for the mainstream. The multiple species model is the dominant perspective so few scientists are very interested in explaining it away (other than perhaps a handful of radicals). The Dmanisi team simply recognised that the morphological diversity observed among the five skulls (which are universally accepted as being from H. erectus) was so incredibly high that there was no longer any solid basis upon which to place the multiple species model - which is currently based on the same level of morphological diversity across geographic regions. Morphological diversity alone is no longer a sufficient reason to claim multiple species if we have real world data telling us that Homo erectus were immensely diverse in their anatomy and skull morphology. What other evidence do we have to argue multiple species across regions between 2.5 - 1 million years ago?

As for the discussion about Early Modern Humans vs Fully Modern Humans, this is a slippery area. What really makes us fully modern humans? Is it simply having hugely reduced brow ridges and a more gracile form, or is it all the behavioural traits? What exactly is the criteria?

We now know that the first Homo sapiens, our ancestors that diverged away from Neanderthals, Denisovans and the shared ancestor, were on that lonesome path by around 700,000 years ago. In the most literal sense then, Homo sapiens have been around from perhaps 700,000 years ago, these would be the true early humans. When did they become early modern humans and when did they become modern humans? What is the criteria for these stages and are there really such clearly defined stages at all?

This all needs rethinking, now that we know our line is MUCH older than previously understood (as explained in my opening article). We also see modern behaviour much earlier than believed, including use of watercraft and production of abstract art. Conversely we see archaic traits surviving much later than previously understood, just look at the fossils of WLH50.

Your intuition on possible problems with some aspects of archaeogentics, like dating mutations, especially when divorced from physical fossil evidence, is very astute. You might find these papers of some interest, here, here and here.

Thank you for your points and I do hope you will continue to question my claims!

Best regards

Bruce



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07-Jun-17 05:34 by Bruce R. Fenton.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 4517 Bruce R. Fenton 01-Jun-17 11:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 1019 Susan Doris 02-Jun-17 05:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 802 Bruce R. Fenton 02-Jun-17 06:56
Related threads on GHMB 868 drrayeye 02-Jun-17 17:06
Re: Related threads on GHMB 703 Bruce R. Fenton 03-Jun-17 10:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 741 laughin 05-Jun-17 21:06
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 727 Bruce R. Fenton 06-Jun-17 04:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 729 SallyA 07-Jun-17 02:28
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 618 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 04:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 928 Thanos5150 06-Jun-17 14:29
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 746 SallyA 07-Jun-17 02:55
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 696 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 05:47
... 730 SallyA 08-Jun-17 04:00
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution ..-_-.. question one 644 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 04:37
... 737 SallyA 08-Jun-17 06:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 624 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 16:15
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 757 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 19:38
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 724 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 03:20
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 607 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 05:33
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 919 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 16:08
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 662 SallyA 08-Jun-17 05:17
... 737 SallyA 08-Jun-17 06:06
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 708 Bruce R. Fenton 09-Jun-17 02:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution -- thank you 664 SallyA 09-Jun-17 03:47
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 816 Thanos5150 11-Jun-17 16:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 598 Bruce R. Fenton 12-Jun-17 09:26
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 632 Bruce R. Fenton 09-Jun-17 02:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 716 Thanos5150 09-Jun-17 23:54
OOA strikes back - the sequel 763 laughin 08-Jun-17 13:09
Re: OOA strikes back - the sequel 660 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 15:37
Re: OOA strikes back - the sequel 661 Thanos5150 08-Jun-17 17:23
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 643 Robert Jameson 11-Jun-17 06:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 643 Bruce R. Fenton 11-Jun-17 11:46
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 795 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 05:34
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 654 dong 12-Jun-17 06:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 718 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 13:32
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 724 Bruce R. Fenton 12-Jun-17 09:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 621 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 12:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 690 Susan Doris 14-Jun-17 05:02
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 692 Robert Jameson 14-Jun-17 05:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 717 michael seabrook 13-Jun-17 22:09
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 724 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 00:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 624 SallyA 13-Jun-17 01:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 604 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 02:44
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb. .. Giza hosts an inland sea 790 SallyA 13-Jun-17 02:59
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb 588 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 03:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb 651 SallyA 13-Jun-17 04:04
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 708 Thanos5150 14-Jun-17 15:55
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 783 Robert Jameson 14-Jun-17 17:54
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 609 michael seabrook 16-Jun-17 21:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 628 Robert Jameson 16-Jun-17 22:47
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution Excellent and ... 698 SallyA 16-Jun-17 23:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution Excellent and ... 698 Robert Jameson 17-Jun-17 09:44
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 604 Susan Doris 17-Jun-17 14:17
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 668 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 02:43
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 621 Susan Doris 18-Jun-17 09:24
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 676 Bruce R. Fenton 18-Jun-17 11:04
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 677 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 11:14
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 587 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 11:04
Unfair diversion 518 drrayeye 18-Jun-17 21:35
Re: Proto-sumerian ... Ukraine ... a bit late for into Africa I fear, probably mis-posted 780 SallyA 19-Jun-17 03:00
Re: Unfair diversion 715 Susan Doris 19-Jun-17 05:20
Unfair diversion for sure 604 drrayeye 19-Jun-17 05:47
Re: Unfair diversion for sure 664 Susan Doris 20-Jun-17 04:56
Robert's challenge 705 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 07:24
Re: Robert's challenge 598 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 11:17
Tangential 592 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 05:03
Re: Tangential 603 Robert Jameson 27-Jun-17 06:12
Wrong board 622 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 06:38
Re: Wrong board 577 Robert Jameson 27-Jun-17 08:03
Re: Tangential 611 Eddie Larry 27-Jun-17 15:59
Re:Susan, do you know of a time line? 623 SallyA 19-Jun-17 17:48
Re: Unfair diversion 682 Thanos5150 19-Jun-17 13:44
Re: Unfair diversion 596 drrayeye 19-Jun-17 15:40
Re: Unfair diversion 710 Robert Jameson 19-Jun-17 23:14
Re: Unfair diversion 609 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 00:31
Re: Unfair diversion 677 Robert Jameson 20-Jun-17 10:19
kicking a dead horse 621 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 14:36
Re: kicking a dead horse 526 Robert Jameson 20-Jun-17 23:49
Staying on topic 606 drrayeye 21-Jun-17 01:15
Re: Unfair diversion 618 Thanos5150 20-Jun-17 15:24
Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 545 SallyA 20-Jun-17 15:59
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 514 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 10:21
Interesting 592 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 06:50
Re: Interesting 479 Bruce R. Fenton 27-Jun-17 22:32
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 484 Eddie Larry 28-Jun-17 04:37
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 828 Bruce R. Fenton 28-Jun-17 04:41
Re: Unfair diversion 562 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 15:59
Off Topic: re: factors which alter .. Earth's shields don't block cygnets ... nor neutrinos, ... 536 SallyA 20-Jun-17 21:13
Re: Unfair diversion 513 SallyA 21-Jun-17 01:37
Focus 612 drrayeye 21-Jun-17 07:30
Re: Focus 681 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 10:26
Re: Focus 586 Susan Doris 26-Jun-17 16:51
Re: Focus... ah, my bad ... 490 SallyA 11-Feb-18 19:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 681 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Jun-17 12:12
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 615 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 06:32
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 593 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 11:57
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 741 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 13:59
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 427 lalbee 16-Feb-18 13:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 411 lalbee 17-Feb-18 02:25
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 427 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Feb-18 04:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 406 lalbee 17-Feb-18 05:56
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 431 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Feb-18 06:27
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 565 lalbee 18-Feb-18 15:17
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 438 drrayeye 21-Feb-18 13:48
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 421 lalbee 22-Feb-18 16:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 418 Robert Jameson 22-Feb-18 19:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 798 Bruce R. Fenton 22-Feb-18 23:07
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 430 Bruce R. Fenton 22-Feb-18 23:00


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