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Hi Rob,


> The idea of a Holy Bloodline, IMO, negates the message that
> Jesus brought, ie, that the future Kingdom will be born out
> of the spirit and not out of man made political rulership.

I can't help feeling that this argument is back to front, it's kind of like: this evidence can't be right because it doesn't fit my theory. But even if we do argue it back to front then one could still argue that Jesus' message is that humanity's path forward is spiritual is surely stronger if he is a man like all the rest of us and manages to take the spiritual path. Otherwise a man might not be totally unjustified in saying, "OK Jesus, its alright for you to say look at me I've taken the spiritual path, but you are a god after all."

I think a problem in all of this is that there is very little real historical documentation about Jesus. There are only a couple of passages from Josephus if I remember correctly and it is also clear that the Church has a vested interest in dissuading any serious historical research in the matter. Most of the information that we use to asses whether a story can be right or not is that which was compiled at the Council of Nicea in AD 325. Most Bible scholars seem to agree that none of the Gospels so included were actually written by the deciples, rather the first ones were probably written in AD100 or thereabouts in Alexandria.

Because of this I think taking into account cultural issues like the rareness of an Unmarried teacher of Jesus' kind in that time is actually a very strong one and that we find little evidence of it in the Bible which amongst other things proposes the Papal succession and a patriarchal society is not so surprising. We have read often enough on this site that history is written by the winners and I think is is fair to say that the Bible can hardly be seen as an unbiased history.

From what I read of the Dead Sea Scroles which were probably written closer to Jesus' time, his posse, the Jerusalem Church, was less into the divine aspect of Jesus and also refers to Paul as "the liar" or such.

Sorry I haven't got any reference books with me.

Best,
Ant

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Mysticism and Knights Templars 555 Melusine 26-Feb-04 04:39
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 296 Mark Staab 26-Feb-04 05:21
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 230 Melusine 26-Feb-04 13:31
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 232 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 15:52
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 178 Melusine 26-Feb-04 18:23
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 269 Dominick Ohrbeck 15-Mar-04 18:35
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 265 Milo 26-Feb-04 15:58
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 226 Melusine 26-Feb-04 18:28
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 291 Milo 26-Feb-04 19:43
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 223 Melusine 26-Feb-04 21:06
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 232 Milo 26-Feb-04 21:13
Re: I found an interesting site for you Milo 332 Melusine 28-Feb-04 17:41
Re: I found an interesting site for you Milo 215 Milo 28-Feb-04 18:11
Re: I found an interesting site for you Milo 225 Melusine 28-Feb-04 18:21
Will do, thanks! n/t 238 Milo 28-Feb-04 18:29
Smokescreen for science and wealth? 217 ananda 02-Mar-04 15:46
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 215 Milo 02-Mar-04 19:19
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 228 Kboldt 02-Mar-04 20:24
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 213 Milo 02-Mar-04 20:58
I forgot to add... 227 Milo 02-Mar-04 21:05
Re: I forgot to add... 273 Kboldt 02-Mar-04 21:28
Superiority raises its ugly head 199 Archietype 03-Mar-04 08:12
Re: Superiority raises its ugly head 235 Milo 03-Mar-04 15:10
Re: Superiority raises its ugly head 251 Archietype 04-Mar-04 17:25
Re: Superiority raises its ugly head 235 Milo 04-Mar-04 17:48
Re: writing 299 Archietype 04-Mar-04 18:31
Re: Superiority raises its ugly head 232 Mark Staab 04-Mar-04 18:08
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 257 Alatariel 04-Mar-04 00:42
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 220 Melusine 04-Mar-04 01:10
Over the Rainbow... 291 Milo 04-Mar-04 01:26
Re: Over the Rainbow... 293 Melusine 04-Mar-04 01:39
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 252 Lee McGiffen 04-Mar-04 09:32
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 238 Melusine 04-Mar-04 09:48
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 300 Milo 04-Mar-04 01:13
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 231 Melusine 04-Mar-04 10:04
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 291 Melusine 04-Mar-04 10:07
My two cents... 263 Milo 04-Mar-04 16:16
Re: My two cents... 233 Kboldt 04-Mar-04 18:09
Re: My two cents... 172 Milo 04-Mar-04 19:23
Re: My two cents... 199 Kboldt 04-Mar-04 19:32
Re: My two cents... 283 Milo 04-Mar-04 20:30
Re: My two cents... 267 Melusine 05-Mar-04 09:30
Re: My two cents... 170 Kboldt 05-Mar-04 13:49
Re: My two cents... 208 Melusine 04-Mar-04 21:46
Re: My two cents... 151 Milo 04-Mar-04 22:32
On further thought... 219 Milo 05-Mar-04 06:08
Re: On further thought... 273 Melusine 06-Mar-04 15:29
Re: On further thought... 221 Milo 06-Mar-04 16:55
Re: My two cents too 179 Alatariel 05-Mar-04 01:30
Re: My two cents too 210 Milo 05-Mar-04 02:09
Re: My two cents too 206 debraregypt 07-Mar-04 17:27
Re: My two cents too 192 Milo 07-Mar-04 18:31
Re: My two cents too 267 Melusine 09-Mar-04 07:41
Re: My two cents too 254 Milo 09-Mar-04 08:07
Re: My two cents too 208 Mark Staab 09-Mar-04 08:56
Re: My two cents too 225 Melusine 09-Mar-04 22:13
Re: My two cents too 253 debraregypt 10-Mar-04 01:08
Re: My two cents too 217 Milo 10-Mar-04 01:19
Re: My two cents too 261 Kboldt 10-Mar-04 15:01
Big Misunderstanding!!! 275 Milo 10-Mar-04 16:59
Re: Big Misunderstanding!!! 248 Kboldt 10-Mar-04 17:36
Some more cents... 193 Anthony Taylor 09-Mar-04 19:37
Re: Some more cents... 210 Milo 09-Mar-04 20:12
Re: Some more cents... 222 Melusine 09-Mar-04 22:22
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 161 Alatariel 05-Mar-04 01:23
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 237 Milo 05-Mar-04 02:36
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 273 smetters 05-Mar-04 13:31
The Message of the Marriage of Cana 281 Kboldt 05-Mar-04 17:08
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 248 smetters 05-Mar-04 17:30
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 204 Kboldt 08-Mar-04 13:52
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 241 smetters 08-Mar-04 17:47
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 264 Kboldt 08-Mar-04 19:49
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 294 Alatariel 08-Mar-04 22:40
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 270 Melusine 09-Mar-04 08:20
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 287 smetters 09-Mar-04 13:27
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 235 Kboldt 09-Mar-04 13:45
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 178 Mark Staab 09-Mar-04 15:02
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 289 smetters 09-Mar-04 15:31
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 234 Mark Staab 09-Mar-04 15:57
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 257 smetters 09-Mar-04 16:54
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 213 Melusine 09-Mar-04 22:37
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 189 Mark Staab 10-Mar-04 01:42
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 228 Melusine 11-Mar-04 01:52
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 222 Mark Staab 11-Mar-04 07:03
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 263 Mark Staab 09-Mar-04 16:35
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 150 Melusine 09-Mar-04 22:32
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 225 smetters 10-Mar-04 10:45
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 199 smetters 09-Mar-04 15:18
I for got this part... 275 Kboldt 05-Mar-04 18:03
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 272 Milo 05-Mar-04 18:21
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 243 Alatariel 07-Mar-04 03:16
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 329 Milo 07-Mar-04 04:13
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 195 David L 07-Mar-04 05:30
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 209 Milo 07-Mar-04 05:35
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 207 David L 07-Mar-04 05:48
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 204 Milo 07-Mar-04 06:20
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 272 Melusine 11-Mar-04 02:05
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 192 Kboldt 08-Mar-04 14:53
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 249 Milo 08-Mar-04 16:16
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 276 Alatariel 07-Mar-04 15:58
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 236 David L 07-Mar-04 05:36
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 294 Melusine 11-Mar-04 02:03
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 275 Nebankh 07-Mar-04 22:30
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 225 Melusine 11-Mar-04 04:00
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 210 ananda 04-Mar-04 13:10
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 211 smetters 04-Mar-04 13:34
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 277 ananda 02-Mar-04 23:14
Feudalism is still with us, thanks to the secret socieites 275 Milo 02-Mar-04 23:40
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 217 Melusine 03-Mar-04 03:01
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 293 ananda 03-Mar-04 03:36
The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 270 Milo 03-Mar-04 04:25
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 188 Melusine 03-Mar-04 11:50
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 251 Milo 03-Mar-04 15:21
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 213 Melusine 04-Mar-04 01:46
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 259 Milo 04-Mar-04 02:03
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 270 Melusine 04-Mar-04 09:52
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 261 Milo 04-Mar-04 16:45
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 203 Melusine 04-Mar-04 19:54
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 192 Milo 04-Mar-04 20:28
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 218 smetters 03-Mar-04 20:49
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 221 Alatariel 04-Mar-04 00:52
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 259 Melusine 04-Mar-04 01:57
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 193 Alatariel 08-Mar-04 00:03
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 267 Melusine 09-Mar-04 08:00
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 266 Melusine 04-Mar-04 01:37
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 301 smetters 04-Mar-04 13:45
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 264 Melusine 04-Mar-04 16:08
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 220 smetters 04-Mar-04 18:34
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 207 ananda 04-Mar-04 18:47
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 247 Melusine 04-Mar-04 19:45
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 216 Melusine 05-Mar-04 10:07
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 284 smetters 05-Mar-04 12:46
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 209 Melusine 05-Mar-04 16:09
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 243 smetters 05-Mar-04 16:35
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 170 Alatariel 05-Mar-04 00:58
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 199 ArmchairObserver 05-Mar-04 09:28
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 234 Milo 04-Mar-04 17:01
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 196 smetters 04-Mar-04 19:00
Lucifer and the Great Work 208 Milo 04-Mar-04 20:16
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 157 Anne-Marie 05-Mar-04 07:01
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 226 Melusine 05-Mar-04 19:41
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 249 Milo 06-Mar-04 02:07
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 268 ArmchairObserver 06-Mar-04 09:13
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 235 Milo 06-Mar-04 17:02
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 183 ArmchairObserver 06-Mar-04 18:33
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 180 Milo 06-Mar-04 19:40
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 264 Anne-Marie 07-Mar-04 00:09
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 201 Milo 07-Mar-04 01:14
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 236 Anne-Marie 07-Mar-04 07:22
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 259 Milo 07-Mar-04 09:02
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 245 Melusine 11-Mar-04 03:53
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 251 Milo 11-Mar-04 05:43
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 189 ArmchairObserver 07-Mar-04 03:19
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 248 Milo 07-Mar-04 04:07
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 205 ArmchairObserver 07-Mar-04 06:27
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 296 Milo 07-Mar-04 09:51
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 186 ArmchairObserver 07-Mar-04 21:10
The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 700 Milo 07-Mar-04 22:30
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 217 ArmchairObserver 08-Mar-04 03:28
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 214 Milo 08-Mar-04 04:12
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 292 ArmchairObserver 08-Mar-04 05:10
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 228 Milo 08-Mar-04 05:29
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 196 Alatariel 08-Mar-04 12:40
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 230 Milo 08-Mar-04 16:21
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 250 ArmchairObserver 08-Mar-04 16:32
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 183 Mark Staab 08-Mar-04 20:31
PPS 207 Mark Staab 08-Mar-04 20:38
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 204 smetters 08-Mar-04 18:12
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 273 ArmchairObserver 08-Mar-04 20:04
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 202 smetters 09-Mar-04 12:23
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 205 ArmchairObserver 09-Mar-04 19:57
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 263 smetters 10-Mar-04 17:41
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 216 ArmchairObserver 10-Mar-04 18:36
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 219 smetters 11-Mar-04 13:03
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 251 ArmchairObserver 11-Mar-04 18:57
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 264 smetters 12-Mar-04 12:15
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 198 Melusine 09-Mar-04 22:54
Re: Left-Handed and Red Hair 283 Kboldt 09-Mar-04 23:00
Re: Left-Handed and Red Hair 300 ArmchairObserver 10-Mar-04 06:54
Re: Left-Handed and Red Hair 213 Briffits 10-Mar-04 08:21
Re: Left-Handed and Red Hair 183 ArmchairObserver 10-Mar-04 18:38
Re: Left-Handed and Red Hair 231 Artificer 10-Mar-04 23:35
Re: Left-Handed and Red Hair 191 smetters 11-Mar-04 12:50
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 252 ArmchairObserver 10-Mar-04 07:15
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 190 Melusine 11-Mar-04 02:36
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 195 ArmchairObserver 11-Mar-04 05:13
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 250 Milo 11-Mar-04 05:50
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 247 ArmchairObserver 11-Mar-04 21:43
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 230 Milo 12-Mar-04 01:13
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 222 ArmchairObserver 12-Mar-04 04:56
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 190 Melusine 06-Mar-04 14:45
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 241 Milo 06-Mar-04 17:04
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 231 Melusine 06-Mar-04 19:16
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 206 Milo 06-Mar-04 20:14
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 172 Melusine 06-Mar-04 20:32
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 187 Milo 06-Mar-04 21:01
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 239 smetters 05-Mar-04 13:25
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 284 Milo 05-Mar-04 18:18
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 171 smetters 08-Mar-04 17:54
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 195 Milo 08-Mar-04 22:35
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 218 smetters 09-Mar-04 12:28
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 225 Melusine 05-Mar-04 20:11
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 213 Alatariel 07-Mar-04 03:54
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 197 David L 07-Mar-04 04:59
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 252 Milo 07-Mar-04 05:07
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 169 David L 07-Mar-04 05:09
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 239 Milo 07-Mar-04 05:16
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 214 smetters 08-Mar-04 13:50
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 245 Milo 08-Mar-04 16:25
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 204 Milo 08-Mar-04 16:27
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 272 Kboldt 08-Mar-04 16:31
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 239 smetters 08-Mar-04 17:29
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 252 smetters 08-Mar-04 17:56
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 205 David L 07-Mar-04 04:07
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 255 Milo 07-Mar-04 04:22
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 202 David L 07-Mar-04 04:52
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 244 Milo 07-Mar-04 05:03
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 253 David L 07-Mar-04 05:07
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 219 Milo 07-Mar-04 05:18
Mod comment 175 ArmchairObserver 07-Mar-04 06:57
Re: Mod comment 217 Milo 07-Mar-04 09:55
Re: Mod comment 284 ArmchairObserver 07-Mar-04 18:24
Re: Mod comment 299 Milo 07-Mar-04 18:44
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 190 smetters 08-Mar-04 13:31
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 214 David L 08-Mar-04 15:16
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 214 smetters 08-Mar-04 17:00
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 179 David L 07-Mar-04 04:34
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 258 Milo 07-Mar-04 04:58
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 208 David L 07-Mar-04 05:03
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 206 Milo 07-Mar-04 05:11
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 194 Melusine 11-Mar-04 03:57
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 189 Milo 11-Mar-04 06:08
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 242 Melusine 15-Mar-04 23:44
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 192 Milo 16-Mar-04 00:10
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 255 Milo 16-Mar-04 00:50
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 275 Melusine 17-Mar-04 03:00
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 248 Milo 17-Mar-04 06:25
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 240 Melusine 17-Mar-04 23:15
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 225 Milo 17-Mar-04 23:59
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 466 Joyeuse 18-Mar-04 00:38
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 211 Dominick Ohrbeck 12-Mar-04 07:38
Templar Cross at Temple of Karnak, Egypt 192 fisherman 15-Mar-04 23:50
fixed link 195 Dominick Ohrbeck 12-Mar-04 18:09
Re: fixed link 211 Melusine 15-Mar-04 23:31
Re: fixed link 212 Dominick Ohrbeck 16-Mar-04 01:47
Re: fixed link 243 Dominick Ohrbeck 17-Mar-04 18:00


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