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Hi Rob,


> The idea of a Holy Bloodline, IMO, negates the message that
> Jesus brought, ie, that the future Kingdom will be born out
> of the spirit and not out of man made political rulership.

I can't help feeling that this argument is back to front, it's kind of like: this evidence can't be right because it doesn't fit my theory. But even if we do argue it back to front then one could still argue that Jesus' message is that humanity's path forward is spiritual is surely stronger if he is a man like all the rest of us and manages to take the spiritual path. Otherwise a man might not be totally unjustified in saying, "OK Jesus, its alright for you to say look at me I've taken the spiritual path, but you are a god after all."

I think a problem in all of this is that there is very little real historical documentation about Jesus. There are only a couple of passages from Josephus if I remember correctly and it is also clear that the Church has a vested interest in dissuading any serious historical research in the matter. Most of the information that we use to asses whether a story can be right or not is that which was compiled at the Council of Nicea in AD 325. Most Bible scholars seem to agree that none of the Gospels so included were actually written by the deciples, rather the first ones were probably written in AD100 or thereabouts in Alexandria.

Because of this I think taking into account cultural issues like the rareness of an Unmarried teacher of Jesus' kind in that time is actually a very strong one and that we find little evidence of it in the Bible which amongst other things proposes the Papal succession and a patriarchal society is not so surprising. We have read often enough on this site that history is written by the winners and I think is is fair to say that the Bible can hardly be seen as an unbiased history.

From what I read of the Dead Sea Scroles which were probably written closer to Jesus' time, his posse, the Jerusalem Church, was less into the divine aspect of Jesus and also refers to Paul as "the liar" or such.

Sorry I haven't got any reference books with me.

Best,
Ant

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Mysticism and Knights Templars 504 Melusine 26-Feb-04 04:39
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 266 Mark Staab 26-Feb-04 05:21
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 209 Melusine 26-Feb-04 13:31
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 214 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 15:52
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 157 Melusine 26-Feb-04 18:23
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 246 Dominick Ohrbeck 15-Mar-04 18:35
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 227 Milo 26-Feb-04 15:58
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 201 Melusine 26-Feb-04 18:28
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 265 Milo 26-Feb-04 19:43
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 195 Melusine 26-Feb-04 21:06
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 209 Milo 26-Feb-04 21:13
Re: I found an interesting site for you Milo 313 Melusine 28-Feb-04 17:41
Re: I found an interesting site for you Milo 192 Milo 28-Feb-04 18:11
Re: I found an interesting site for you Milo 201 Melusine 28-Feb-04 18:21
Will do, thanks! n/t 220 Milo 28-Feb-04 18:29
Smokescreen for science and wealth? 191 ananda 02-Mar-04 15:46
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 194 Milo 02-Mar-04 19:19
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 196 Kboldt 02-Mar-04 20:24
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 196 Milo 02-Mar-04 20:58
I forgot to add... 209 Milo 02-Mar-04 21:05
Re: I forgot to add... 252 Kboldt 02-Mar-04 21:28
Superiority raises its ugly head 178 Archietype 03-Mar-04 08:12
Re: Superiority raises its ugly head 211 Milo 03-Mar-04 15:10
Re: Superiority raises its ugly head 230 Archietype 04-Mar-04 17:25
Re: Superiority raises its ugly head 214 Milo 04-Mar-04 17:48
Re: writing 256 Archietype 04-Mar-04 18:31
Re: Superiority raises its ugly head 203 Mark Staab 04-Mar-04 18:08
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 225 Alatariel 04-Mar-04 00:42
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 198 Melusine 04-Mar-04 01:10
Over the Rainbow... 258 Milo 04-Mar-04 01:26
Re: Over the Rainbow... 272 Melusine 04-Mar-04 01:39
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 225 Lee McGiffen 04-Mar-04 09:32
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 221 Melusine 04-Mar-04 09:48
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 266 Milo 04-Mar-04 01:13
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 210 Melusine 04-Mar-04 10:04
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 270 Melusine 04-Mar-04 10:07
My two cents... 241 Milo 04-Mar-04 16:16
Re: My two cents... 214 Kboldt 04-Mar-04 18:09
Re: My two cents... 147 Milo 04-Mar-04 19:23
Re: My two cents... 183 Kboldt 04-Mar-04 19:32
Re: My two cents... 265 Milo 04-Mar-04 20:30
Re: My two cents... 237 Melusine 05-Mar-04 09:30
Re: My two cents... 147 Kboldt 05-Mar-04 13:49
Re: My two cents... 189 Melusine 04-Mar-04 21:46
Re: My two cents... 134 Milo 04-Mar-04 22:32
On further thought... 196 Milo 05-Mar-04 06:08
Re: On further thought... 244 Melusine 06-Mar-04 15:29
Re: On further thought... 197 Milo 06-Mar-04 16:55
Re: My two cents too 164 Alatariel 05-Mar-04 01:30
Re: My two cents too 190 Milo 05-Mar-04 02:09
Re: My two cents too 182 debraregypt 07-Mar-04 17:27
Re: My two cents too 170 Milo 07-Mar-04 18:31
Re: My two cents too 238 Melusine 09-Mar-04 07:41
Re: My two cents too 232 Milo 09-Mar-04 08:07
Re: My two cents too 187 Mark Staab 09-Mar-04 08:56
Re: My two cents too 208 Melusine 09-Mar-04 22:13
Re: My two cents too 227 debraregypt 10-Mar-04 01:08
Re: My two cents too 192 Milo 10-Mar-04 01:19
Re: My two cents too 240 Kboldt 10-Mar-04 15:01
Big Misunderstanding!!! 252 Milo 10-Mar-04 16:59
Re: Big Misunderstanding!!! 224 Kboldt 10-Mar-04 17:36
Some more cents... 166 Anthony Taylor 09-Mar-04 19:37
Re: Some more cents... 191 Milo 09-Mar-04 20:12
Re: Some more cents... 191 Melusine 09-Mar-04 22:22
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 143 Alatariel 05-Mar-04 01:23
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 216 Milo 05-Mar-04 02:36
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 251 smetters 05-Mar-04 13:31
The Message of the Marriage of Cana 261 Kboldt 05-Mar-04 17:08
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 215 smetters 05-Mar-04 17:30
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 181 Kboldt 08-Mar-04 13:52
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 221 smetters 08-Mar-04 17:47
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 239 Kboldt 08-Mar-04 19:49
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 260 Alatariel 08-Mar-04 22:40
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 243 Melusine 09-Mar-04 08:20
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 266 smetters 09-Mar-04 13:27
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 202 Kboldt 09-Mar-04 13:45
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 141 Mark Staab 09-Mar-04 15:02
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 271 smetters 09-Mar-04 15:31
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 209 Mark Staab 09-Mar-04 15:57
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 240 smetters 09-Mar-04 16:54
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 193 Melusine 09-Mar-04 22:37
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 168 Mark Staab 10-Mar-04 01:42
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 209 Melusine 11-Mar-04 01:52
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 198 Mark Staab 11-Mar-04 07:03
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 243 Mark Staab 09-Mar-04 16:35
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 129 Melusine 09-Mar-04 22:32
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 189 smetters 10-Mar-04 10:45
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 165 smetters 09-Mar-04 15:18
I for got this part... 251 Kboldt 05-Mar-04 18:03
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 250 Milo 05-Mar-04 18:21
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 221 Alatariel 07-Mar-04 03:16
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 313 Milo 07-Mar-04 04:13
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 169 David L 07-Mar-04 05:30
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 188 Milo 07-Mar-04 05:35
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 181 David L 07-Mar-04 05:48
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 180 Milo 07-Mar-04 06:20
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 247 Melusine 11-Mar-04 02:05
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 175 Kboldt 08-Mar-04 14:53
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 220 Milo 08-Mar-04 16:16
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 245 Alatariel 07-Mar-04 15:58
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 201 David L 07-Mar-04 05:36
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 255 Melusine 11-Mar-04 02:03
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 252 Nebankh 07-Mar-04 22:30
Re: The Message of the Marriage of Cana 206 Melusine 11-Mar-04 04:00
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 188 ananda 04-Mar-04 13:10
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 186 smetters 04-Mar-04 13:34
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 253 ananda 02-Mar-04 23:14
Feudalism is still with us, thanks to the secret socieites 244 Milo 02-Mar-04 23:40
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 193 Melusine 03-Mar-04 03:01
Re: Smokescreen for science and wealth? 268 ananda 03-Mar-04 03:36
The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 245 Milo 03-Mar-04 04:25
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 168 Melusine 03-Mar-04 11:50
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 226 Milo 03-Mar-04 15:21
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 190 Melusine 04-Mar-04 01:46
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 239 Milo 04-Mar-04 02:03
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 242 Melusine 04-Mar-04 09:52
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 246 Milo 04-Mar-04 16:45
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 186 Melusine 04-Mar-04 19:54
Re: The Biblical struggle against the anti-Christ 170 Milo 04-Mar-04 20:28
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 179 smetters 03-Mar-04 20:49
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 191 Alatariel 04-Mar-04 00:52
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 235 Melusine 04-Mar-04 01:57
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 170 Alatariel 08-Mar-04 00:03
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 249 Melusine 09-Mar-04 08:00
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 240 Melusine 04-Mar-04 01:37
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 268 smetters 04-Mar-04 13:45
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 244 Melusine 04-Mar-04 16:08
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 200 smetters 04-Mar-04 18:34
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 186 ananda 04-Mar-04 18:47
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 224 Melusine 04-Mar-04 19:45
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 197 Melusine 05-Mar-04 10:07
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 259 smetters 05-Mar-04 12:46
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 185 Melusine 05-Mar-04 16:09
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 218 smetters 05-Mar-04 16:35
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 155 Alatariel 05-Mar-04 00:58
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 173 ArmchairObserver 05-Mar-04 09:28
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 216 Milo 04-Mar-04 17:01
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 169 smetters 04-Mar-04 19:00
Lucifer and the Great Work 180 Milo 04-Mar-04 20:16
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 141 Anne-Marie 05-Mar-04 07:01
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 198 Melusine 05-Mar-04 19:41
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 224 Milo 06-Mar-04 02:07
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 247 ArmchairObserver 06-Mar-04 09:13
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 212 Milo 06-Mar-04 17:02
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 168 ArmchairObserver 06-Mar-04 18:33
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 162 Milo 06-Mar-04 19:40
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 226 Anne-Marie 07-Mar-04 00:09
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 167 Milo 07-Mar-04 01:14
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 220 Anne-Marie 07-Mar-04 07:22
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 222 Milo 07-Mar-04 09:02
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 222 Melusine 11-Mar-04 03:53
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 220 Milo 11-Mar-04 05:43
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 157 ArmchairObserver 07-Mar-04 03:19
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 221 Milo 07-Mar-04 04:07
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 179 ArmchairObserver 07-Mar-04 06:27
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 268 Milo 07-Mar-04 09:51
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 164 ArmchairObserver 07-Mar-04 21:10
The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 598 Milo 07-Mar-04 22:30
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 186 ArmchairObserver 08-Mar-04 03:28
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 195 Milo 08-Mar-04 04:12
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 269 ArmchairObserver 08-Mar-04 05:10
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 211 Milo 08-Mar-04 05:29
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 174 Alatariel 08-Mar-04 12:40
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 191 Milo 08-Mar-04 16:21
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 228 ArmchairObserver 08-Mar-04 16:32
Re: The Grail Bloodline Drank Menstrual Blood 151 Mark Staab 08-Mar-04 20:31
PPS 177 Mark Staab 08-Mar-04 20:38
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 180 smetters 08-Mar-04 18:12
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 247 ArmchairObserver 08-Mar-04 20:04
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 183 smetters 09-Mar-04 12:23
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 183 ArmchairObserver 09-Mar-04 19:57
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 230 smetters 10-Mar-04 17:41
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 199 ArmchairObserver 10-Mar-04 18:36
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 201 smetters 11-Mar-04 13:03
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 224 ArmchairObserver 11-Mar-04 18:57
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 241 smetters 12-Mar-04 12:15
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 179 Melusine 09-Mar-04 22:54
Re: Left-Handed and Red Hair 250 Kboldt 09-Mar-04 23:00
Re: Left-Handed and Red Hair 279 ArmchairObserver 10-Mar-04 06:54
Re: Left-Handed and Red Hair 188 Briffits 10-Mar-04 08:21
Re: Left-Handed and Red Hair 163 ArmchairObserver 10-Mar-04 18:38
Re: Left-Handed and Red Hair 206 Artificer 10-Mar-04 23:35
Re: Left-Handed and Red Hair 175 smetters 11-Mar-04 12:50
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 236 ArmchairObserver 10-Mar-04 07:15
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 174 Melusine 11-Mar-04 02:36
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 179 ArmchairObserver 11-Mar-04 05:13
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 223 Milo 11-Mar-04 05:50
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 227 ArmchairObserver 11-Mar-04 21:43
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 211 Milo 12-Mar-04 01:13
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 192 ArmchairObserver 12-Mar-04 04:56
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 170 Melusine 06-Mar-04 14:45
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 220 Milo 06-Mar-04 17:04
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 208 Melusine 06-Mar-04 19:16
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 186 Milo 06-Mar-04 20:14
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 147 Melusine 06-Mar-04 20:32
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 172 Milo 06-Mar-04 21:01
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 218 smetters 05-Mar-04 13:25
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 243 Milo 05-Mar-04 18:18
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 149 smetters 08-Mar-04 17:54
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 173 Milo 08-Mar-04 22:35
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 202 smetters 09-Mar-04 12:28
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 197 Melusine 05-Mar-04 20:11
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 185 Alatariel 07-Mar-04 03:54
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 174 David L 07-Mar-04 04:59
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 227 Milo 07-Mar-04 05:07
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 148 David L 07-Mar-04 05:09
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 219 Milo 07-Mar-04 05:16
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 197 smetters 08-Mar-04 13:50
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 211 Milo 08-Mar-04 16:25
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 179 Milo 08-Mar-04 16:27
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 241 Kboldt 08-Mar-04 16:31
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 223 smetters 08-Mar-04 17:29
Re: Lucifer and the Great Work 236 smetters 08-Mar-04 17:56
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 182 David L 07-Mar-04 04:07
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 228 Milo 07-Mar-04 04:22
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 167 David L 07-Mar-04 04:52
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 215 Milo 07-Mar-04 05:03
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 217 David L 07-Mar-04 05:07
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 201 Milo 07-Mar-04 05:18
Mod comment 159 ArmchairObserver 07-Mar-04 06:57
Re: Mod comment 191 Milo 07-Mar-04 09:55
Re: Mod comment 262 ArmchairObserver 07-Mar-04 18:24
Re: Mod comment 270 Milo 07-Mar-04 18:44
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 167 smetters 08-Mar-04 13:31
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 197 David L 08-Mar-04 15:16
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 178 smetters 08-Mar-04 17:00
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 155 David L 07-Mar-04 04:34
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 228 Milo 07-Mar-04 04:58
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 185 David L 07-Mar-04 05:03
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 188 Milo 07-Mar-04 05:11
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 177 Melusine 11-Mar-04 03:57
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 165 Milo 11-Mar-04 06:08
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 218 Melusine 15-Mar-04 23:44
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 170 Milo 16-Mar-04 00:10
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 233 Milo 16-Mar-04 00:50
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 253 Melusine 17-Mar-04 03:00
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 224 Milo 17-Mar-04 06:25
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 214 Melusine 17-Mar-04 23:15
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 204 Milo 17-Mar-04 23:59
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 404 Joyeuse 18-Mar-04 00:38
Re: Mysticism and Knights Templars 187 Dominick Ohrbeck 12-Mar-04 07:38
Templar Cross at Temple of Karnak, Egypt 170 fisherman 15-Mar-04 23:50
fixed link 175 Dominick Ohrbeck 12-Mar-04 18:09
Re: fixed link 186 Melusine 15-Mar-04 23:31
Re: fixed link 179 Dominick Ohrbeck 16-Mar-04 01:47
Re: fixed link 211 Dominick Ohrbeck 17-Mar-04 18:00


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