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ananda wrote:

> I have always considered very plausible the idea that
> Christian deities have been shaped over the years as
> amalgamations and offshoots of former gods and figures as
> they happen to have been assimilated from other cultures and
> regions.
>
> In Christ, I could see something of Horus and Mithra, for
> example (Zoroaster as well?)... in Mary, Isis (Astarte,
> Ishtar?).
>
> Is this valid thinking?
>
> I think some people are saying that the Christ/Mithra
> connection has been debunked... god, how I hate that word.
> However, I would like to know how that happened?

I don't think it is valid thinking. There are many essays debunking the Jesus story as being original but there are also scholarly rebuttals of such claims. Sorry to bring up J/ P. Holding, again but I'll give one glaring problem with one of the more common misconceptions that Jesus = Mithras , the idea that both were born on the 25th of December. J. P. Holding:

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.

This claim, which I have seen repeated in part by the Secular Web's James Still, is a mix of truth and obfuscations. Let's begin with the December 25th part by noting Glenn Miller's reply, which is more than sufficient: "...the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all." This is something the later church did, wherever they got the idea from -- not the apostolic church, and if there was any borrowing at all, everyone did it, for Dec. 25th was "universally distinguished by sacred festivities" [Cum.MM, 196] being that it was (at the time) the winter solstice.

Next, the cave part. First of all, Mithra was not born of a virgin in a cave; he was born out of solid rock, which presumably left a cave behind -- and I suppose technically the rock he was born out of could have been classified as a virgin! Here is how one Mithraic scholar describes the scene on Mithraic depictions: Mithra "wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix." [MS.173] Mithra was born a grown-up, but you won't hear the copycatters mention this! (The rock-birth scene itself was a likely carryover from Perseus, who experienced a similar birth in an underground cavern; Ulan.OMM, 36.)

---

J. P. Holding laboriously goes through every facet of the claims that Jesus = Mithras and replies to them all in this essay: Mighty Mithraic Madness - Did The Mithraic Mysteries Influence Christianity?

---

> Also, I read somewhere that the origin of haloes came from AE
> depictions of Isis and Horus. Interesting. Remember we were
> wondering why some Renaissance painters used haloes and
> others didn't, and why Michelangelo and da Vinci didn't...
> though da Vinci was coerced into supplying them in his remake
> "Madonna of the Rocks." The Russians even went so far as to
> institutionalize haloes in all of their beautifully stylized
> icons and symbolic religious paintings. By the Middle Ages,
> belief was absolute and enforced with an iron hand,
> alternately a fist for coercion and a palm for accepting
> gifts, alms, tithes, and payment for indulgences.

Don't fall off your chair Ananda but I believe it is probably true that the origin of haloes came from AE depictions of Horus or Osiris. However, these depictions are only creations of the artists concerned. There is not a single description in the Bible of Jesus with a halo. The word "halo" is not found in the Bible.



Is Bush a Horus figure? Probably!

> Well, anyhow, I find it hard to believe that the Christ and
> Mary that fleshed out over the years just materialized out of
> the thin rarefied ether of heaven and fell on earth full
> blown with no other vertical or horizontal influences or
> histories to help us create them.

Erm, I don't think that's how it happened... Jesus was born, he didn't just appear fully blown but I've probably misuderstood what you were driving at here! The whole of the OT builds up to the arrival of Jesus also, so his arrival wasn't unexpected...

> Or were they indeed
> products of the spontaneous combustion of divine inspiration
> and miraculous events such as no one could invent or even
> come together to help create?

I believe Christ's birth was a natural happening, except that instead of a normal human baby spirit coming into the womb, some weeks or months after the original act of sex, a Divine being in the form of Jesus enetered her womb. Apparently, a foetus doesn't come to life until some time after the actual sex act. I forget when this is exactly supposed to be now...

Mary was probably a virgin in the sense that her union with Joseph was pure. This is a big sunfect in and of itself. I could expand if you request...

Rob

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 877 ananda 23-Feb-04 02:51
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 313 Milo 23-Feb-04 04:18
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 275 ananda 23-Feb-04 04:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 241 Milo 23-Feb-04 05:12
Mod Comment to you two 244 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 14:42
Re: Mod Comment to you two 251 Milo 23-Feb-04 15:00
Fallen Angels & Co. 264 Nejc 23-Feb-04 15:09
Re: Fallen Angels & Co. 265 Milo 23-Feb-04 15:18
Yes .. ups.. sorry..n/t 258 Nejc 23-Feb-04 15:27
it's me - lol 296 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 16:19
Re: it's me - lol 290 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:21
No probs n/t 287 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 16:30
Re: Divine Beings 280 Nebankh 23-Feb-04 16:47
Re: Divine Beings 276 Milo 23-Feb-04 17:17
Divine Agreement to Differ 284 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 17:58
Re: Divine Agreement to Differ 292 Milo 23-Feb-04 18:22
Believers and Researchers 312 Nejc 23-Feb-04 18:48
I am not a blind believer but a researcher 290 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:01
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 292 Nejc 23-Feb-04 19:15
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 280 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:19
Oh. Thanks for this one :) n/t 284 Nejc 23-Feb-04 19:22
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 239 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:21
On the other hand... 307 Nejc 23-Feb-04 20:21
Re: On the other hand... 281 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:39
Re: Divine Beings 318 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 19:00
Re: Divine Beings 255 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:09
Re: Divine Beings 313 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 19:24
Re: Divine Beings 266 David L 23-Feb-04 22:42
Is there another site for serious discussion? 300 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 23:09
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 286 Paul Mallon 24-Feb-04 18:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 270 Milo 24-Feb-04 19:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 255 David L 25-Feb-04 01:48
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 250 Milo 25-Feb-04 02:14
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 264 David L 25-Feb-04 03:03
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 245 Milo 25-Feb-04 06:37
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 258 David L 25-Feb-04 16:30
No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 263 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:18
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 260 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:47
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 269 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:54
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 262 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:58
Re: Cana 267 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:30
Re: Cana - missed off a bit! 256 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:32
Re: Cana - missed off a bit! 259 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:05
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 231 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:57
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 283 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:36
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 295 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 10:19
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 256 ananda 26-Feb-04 16:01
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 282 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:14
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 286 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:23
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 299 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:27
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 279 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:58
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 243 Milo 26-Feb-04 17:01
Augustinian vs. Gnostic (and even Pelagian) 271 ananda 26-Feb-04 17:30
Re: Augustinian vs. Gnostic (and even Pelagian) 270 Milo 26-Feb-04 17:43
In Addition.... 246 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 18:50
Point was missed 236 ananda 26-Feb-04 18:58
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 258 ArmchairObserver 25-Feb-04 18:45
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 243 Zosimos 25-Feb-04 18:53
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 255 ArmchairObserver 25-Feb-04 19:02
I misread the quoted passage... 244 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:28
Re: I misread the quoted passage... 294 David L 25-Feb-04 23:20
Re: I misread the quoted passage... 248 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:31
One more thing... 276 David L 25-Feb-04 23:25
Re: One more thing... 275 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:32
Also... 270 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:41
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 270 David L 25-Feb-04 23:08
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 265 Thirdwave 25-Feb-04 23:33
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 283 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:36
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 261 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:01
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 259 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:37
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 278 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:53
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 254 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:58
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 280 sunbeam 23-Feb-04 15:50
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 284 ananda 23-Feb-04 16:15
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 292 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:28
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 294 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:25
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 280 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:36
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 295 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 288 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:49
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 265 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:22
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 238 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:26
Osirus - Seprapis - Christianity 291 Jaimi 23-Feb-04 21:04
Re: Osirus - Seprapis - Christianity 302 Milo 23-Feb-04 21:27
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 289 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:23
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 290 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:32
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 290 Paul Mallon 24-Feb-04 19:43
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 282 Milo 24-Feb-04 20:19
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 283 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:35
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 253 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:35
And by the way... 288 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:36
Re: And by the way... 298 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:42
Re: And by the way... 250 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:14
Re: And by the way... 255 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:28
Re: And by the way... 271 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 16:48
Sources? 273 ananda 26-Feb-04 17:24
Re: Sources? 256 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 18:29
Re: And by the way... 362 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 17:00
Re: And by the way... 267 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 17:45
Re: And by the way... 365 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 18:20
Re: And by the way... 253 ananda 26-Feb-04 18:49
Re: And by the way... 348 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 19:15
Re: And by the way... 241 ananda 26-Feb-04 21:11
Re: And by the way... 343 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 23:30
Re: And by the way... 337 Zosimos 27-Feb-04 00:14
Re: And by the way... 256 Kboldt 27-Feb-04 13:35
Re: And by the way... 319 Zosimos 27-Feb-04 16:44
Re: And by the way... 444 Kboldt 27-Feb-04 16:46
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 275 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:40
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 268 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 311 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:57
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 301 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:19
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 333 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:23
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 294 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:24
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 293 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:34
Challenge to Milo 291 ananda 23-Feb-04 21:21
Re: Challenge to Milo 310 Milo 23-Feb-04 21:38
Re: Challenge to Milo 346 ananda 23-Feb-04 21:43
Re: Challenge to Milo 283 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:31
Yes you are n/t 288 Nejc 23-Feb-04 21:56
Re: Yes you are n/t 264 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:25
Then again... 263 Nejc 24-Feb-04 08:31
Big Blue :) 282 Thirdwave 24-Feb-04 10:54
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 262 debraregypt 23-Feb-04 15:53
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 274 ananda 23-Feb-04 16:16
Archetypes of the collective unconscious 312 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:55
Re: Archetypes of the collective unconscious 298 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:04
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 295 David L 23-Feb-04 22:28
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 277 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 286 David L 24-Feb-04 01:35
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 280 Milo 24-Feb-04 01:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 257 Lee McGiffen 25-Feb-04 09:51
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 242 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:22
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 306 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:24
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 287 Milo 26-Feb-04 15:55
Lee... What about Moses? 277 ananda 26-Feb-04 16:12
Evidence that Jesus Existed 250 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:16
Re: Lee... What about Moses? 269 David L 26-Feb-04 20:37
Deblinkering debunkers... 270 Morph 24-Feb-04 15:26
Re: Deblinkering debunkers... 275 Zosimos 24-Feb-04 18:50
Re: Deblinkering debunkers... 231 Morph 25-Feb-04 15:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 279 Lee McGiffen 25-Feb-04 09:58
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 267 ananda 25-Feb-04 13:10
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 262 Milo 25-Feb-04 16:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 255 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:27
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 241 Zosimos 25-Feb-04 21:16
Re: Christ and Dionysis - good article 264 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:58
6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 256 Milo 25-Feb-04 18:05
Re: 6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 254 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:14
Re: 6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 256 Milo 25-Feb-04 18:34
Hmmm... 299 Morph 26-Feb-04 15:16
Re: Hmmm... 282 Morph 26-Feb-04 15:20
Re: Hmmm... 263 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:44
Au Contraire... 266 Morph 27-Feb-04 14:36


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