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ananda wrote:

> I have always considered very plausible the idea that
> Christian deities have been shaped over the years as
> amalgamations and offshoots of former gods and figures as
> they happen to have been assimilated from other cultures and
> regions.
>
> In Christ, I could see something of Horus and Mithra, for
> example (Zoroaster as well?)... in Mary, Isis (Astarte,
> Ishtar?).
>
> Is this valid thinking?
>
> I think some people are saying that the Christ/Mithra
> connection has been debunked... god, how I hate that word.
> However, I would like to know how that happened?

I don't think it is valid thinking. There are many essays debunking the Jesus story as being original but there are also scholarly rebuttals of such claims. Sorry to bring up J/ P. Holding, again but I'll give one glaring problem with one of the more common misconceptions that Jesus = Mithras , the idea that both were born on the 25th of December. J. P. Holding:

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.

This claim, which I have seen repeated in part by the Secular Web's James Still, is a mix of truth and obfuscations. Let's begin with the December 25th part by noting Glenn Miller's reply, which is more than sufficient: "...the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all." This is something the later church did, wherever they got the idea from -- not the apostolic church, and if there was any borrowing at all, everyone did it, for Dec. 25th was "universally distinguished by sacred festivities" [Cum.MM, 196] being that it was (at the time) the winter solstice.

Next, the cave part. First of all, Mithra was not born of a virgin in a cave; he was born out of solid rock, which presumably left a cave behind -- and I suppose technically the rock he was born out of could have been classified as a virgin! Here is how one Mithraic scholar describes the scene on Mithraic depictions: Mithra "wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix." [MS.173] Mithra was born a grown-up, but you won't hear the copycatters mention this! (The rock-birth scene itself was a likely carryover from Perseus, who experienced a similar birth in an underground cavern; Ulan.OMM, 36.)

---

J. P. Holding laboriously goes through every facet of the claims that Jesus = Mithras and replies to them all in this essay: Mighty Mithraic Madness - Did The Mithraic Mysteries Influence Christianity?

---

> Also, I read somewhere that the origin of haloes came from AE
> depictions of Isis and Horus. Interesting. Remember we were
> wondering why some Renaissance painters used haloes and
> others didn't, and why Michelangelo and da Vinci didn't...
> though da Vinci was coerced into supplying them in his remake
> "Madonna of the Rocks." The Russians even went so far as to
> institutionalize haloes in all of their beautifully stylized
> icons and symbolic religious paintings. By the Middle Ages,
> belief was absolute and enforced with an iron hand,
> alternately a fist for coercion and a palm for accepting
> gifts, alms, tithes, and payment for indulgences.

Don't fall off your chair Ananda but I believe it is probably true that the origin of haloes came from AE depictions of Horus or Osiris. However, these depictions are only creations of the artists concerned. There is not a single description in the Bible of Jesus with a halo. The word "halo" is not found in the Bible.



Is Bush a Horus figure? Probably!

> Well, anyhow, I find it hard to believe that the Christ and
> Mary that fleshed out over the years just materialized out of
> the thin rarefied ether of heaven and fell on earth full
> blown with no other vertical or horizontal influences or
> histories to help us create them.

Erm, I don't think that's how it happened... Jesus was born, he didn't just appear fully blown but I've probably misuderstood what you were driving at here! The whole of the OT builds up to the arrival of Jesus also, so his arrival wasn't unexpected...

> Or were they indeed
> products of the spontaneous combustion of divine inspiration
> and miraculous events such as no one could invent or even
> come together to help create?

I believe Christ's birth was a natural happening, except that instead of a normal human baby spirit coming into the womb, some weeks or months after the original act of sex, a Divine being in the form of Jesus enetered her womb. Apparently, a foetus doesn't come to life until some time after the actual sex act. I forget when this is exactly supposed to be now...

Mary was probably a virgin in the sense that her union with Joseph was pure. This is a big sunfect in and of itself. I could expand if you request...

Rob

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 698 ananda 23-Feb-04 02:51
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 243 Milo 23-Feb-04 04:18
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 212 ananda 23-Feb-04 04:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 177 Milo 23-Feb-04 05:12
Mod Comment to you two 177 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 14:42
Re: Mod Comment to you two 184 Milo 23-Feb-04 15:00
Fallen Angels & Co. 192 Nejc 23-Feb-04 15:09
Re: Fallen Angels & Co. 201 Milo 23-Feb-04 15:18
Yes .. ups.. sorry..n/t 194 Nejc 23-Feb-04 15:27
it's me - lol 227 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 16:19
Re: it's me - lol 222 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:21
No probs n/t 225 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 16:30
Re: Divine Beings 215 Nebankh 23-Feb-04 16:47
Re: Divine Beings 212 Milo 23-Feb-04 17:17
Divine Agreement to Differ 217 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 17:58
Re: Divine Agreement to Differ 229 Milo 23-Feb-04 18:22
Believers and Researchers 242 Nejc 23-Feb-04 18:48
I am not a blind believer but a researcher 229 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:01
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 229 Nejc 23-Feb-04 19:15
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 214 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:19
Oh. Thanks for this one :) n/t 221 Nejc 23-Feb-04 19:22
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 176 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:21
On the other hand... 244 Nejc 23-Feb-04 20:21
Re: On the other hand... 214 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:39
Re: Divine Beings 254 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 19:00
Re: Divine Beings 189 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:09
Re: Divine Beings 252 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 19:24
Re: Divine Beings 199 David L 23-Feb-04 22:42
Is there another site for serious discussion? 239 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 23:09
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 220 Paul Mallon 24-Feb-04 18:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 202 Milo 24-Feb-04 19:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 191 David L 25-Feb-04 01:48
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 187 Milo 25-Feb-04 02:14
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 194 David L 25-Feb-04 03:03
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 182 Milo 25-Feb-04 06:37
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 194 David L 25-Feb-04 16:30
No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 206 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:18
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 193 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:47
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 205 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:54
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 199 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:58
Re: Cana 205 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:30
Re: Cana - missed off a bit! 191 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:32
Re: Cana - missed off a bit! 194 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:05
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 168 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:57
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 217 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:36
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 226 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 10:19
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 189 ananda 26-Feb-04 16:01
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 215 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:14
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 223 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:23
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 234 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:27
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 215 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:58
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 181 Milo 26-Feb-04 17:01
Augustinian vs. Gnostic (and even Pelagian) 203 ananda 26-Feb-04 17:30
Re: Augustinian vs. Gnostic (and even Pelagian) 203 Milo 26-Feb-04 17:43
In Addition.... 182 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 18:50
Point was missed 170 ananda 26-Feb-04 18:58
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 193 ArmchairObserver 25-Feb-04 18:45
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 184 Zosimos 25-Feb-04 18:53
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 188 ArmchairObserver 25-Feb-04 19:02
I misread the quoted passage... 176 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:28
Re: I misread the quoted passage... 228 David L 25-Feb-04 23:20
Re: I misread the quoted passage... 185 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:31
One more thing... 209 David L 25-Feb-04 23:25
Re: One more thing... 210 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:32
Also... 204 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:41
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 207 David L 25-Feb-04 23:08
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 202 Thirdwave 25-Feb-04 23:33
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 217 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:36
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 197 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:01
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 193 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:37
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 217 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:53
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 193 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:58
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 214 sunbeam 23-Feb-04 15:50
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 218 ananda 23-Feb-04 16:15
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 223 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:28
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 226 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:25
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 213 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:36
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 224 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 224 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:49
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 198 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:22
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 173 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:26
Osirus - Seprapis - Christianity 225 Jaimi 23-Feb-04 21:04
Re: Osirus - Seprapis - Christianity 235 Milo 23-Feb-04 21:27
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 225 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:23
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 225 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:32
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 226 Paul Mallon 24-Feb-04 19:43
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 217 Milo 24-Feb-04 20:19
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 216 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:35
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 187 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:35
And by the way... 224 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:36
Re: And by the way... 236 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:42
Re: And by the way... 185 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:14
Re: And by the way... 189 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:28
Re: And by the way... 207 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 16:48
Sources? 206 ananda 26-Feb-04 17:24
Re: Sources? 199 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 18:29
Re: And by the way... 280 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 17:00
Re: And by the way... 205 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 17:45
Re: And by the way... 284 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 18:20
Re: And by the way... 193 ananda 26-Feb-04 18:49
Re: And by the way... 261 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 19:15
Re: And by the way... 175 ananda 26-Feb-04 21:11
Re: And by the way... 259 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 23:30
Re: And by the way... 251 Zosimos 27-Feb-04 00:14
Re: And by the way... 197 Kboldt 27-Feb-04 13:35
Re: And by the way... 239 Zosimos 27-Feb-04 16:44
Re: And by the way... 339 Kboldt 27-Feb-04 16:46
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 212 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:40
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 203 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 240 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:57
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 238 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:19
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 271 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:23
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 221 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:24
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 226 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:34
Challenge to Milo 224 ananda 23-Feb-04 21:21
Re: Challenge to Milo 245 Milo 23-Feb-04 21:38
Re: Challenge to Milo 283 ananda 23-Feb-04 21:43
Re: Challenge to Milo 217 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:31
Yes you are n/t 222 Nejc 23-Feb-04 21:56
Re: Yes you are n/t 200 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:25
Then again... 196 Nejc 24-Feb-04 08:31
Big Blue :) 217 Thirdwave 24-Feb-04 10:54
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 199 debraregypt 23-Feb-04 15:53
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 209 ananda 23-Feb-04 16:16
Archetypes of the collective unconscious 248 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:55
Re: Archetypes of the collective unconscious 236 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:04
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 228 David L 23-Feb-04 22:28
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 213 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 223 David L 24-Feb-04 01:35
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 218 Milo 24-Feb-04 01:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 191 Lee McGiffen 25-Feb-04 09:51
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 177 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:22
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 243 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:24
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 224 Milo 26-Feb-04 15:55
Lee... What about Moses? 219 ananda 26-Feb-04 16:12
Evidence that Jesus Existed 192 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:16
Re: Lee... What about Moses? 212 David L 26-Feb-04 20:37
Deblinkering debunkers... 217 Morph 24-Feb-04 15:26
Re: Deblinkering debunkers... 221 Zosimos 24-Feb-04 18:50
Re: Deblinkering debunkers... 180 Morph 25-Feb-04 15:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 216 Lee McGiffen 25-Feb-04 09:58
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 209 ananda 25-Feb-04 13:10
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 205 Milo 25-Feb-04 16:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 193 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:27
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 189 Zosimos 25-Feb-04 21:16
Re: Christ and Dionysis - good article 199 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:58
6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 197 Milo 25-Feb-04 18:05
Re: 6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 193 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:14
Re: 6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 194 Milo 25-Feb-04 18:34
Hmmm... 235 Morph 26-Feb-04 15:16
Re: Hmmm... 224 Morph 26-Feb-04 15:20
Re: Hmmm... 205 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:44
Au Contraire... 203 Morph 27-Feb-04 14:36


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