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ananda wrote:

> I have always considered very plausible the idea that
> Christian deities have been shaped over the years as
> amalgamations and offshoots of former gods and figures as
> they happen to have been assimilated from other cultures and
> regions.
>
> In Christ, I could see something of Horus and Mithra, for
> example (Zoroaster as well?)... in Mary, Isis (Astarte,
> Ishtar?).
>
> Is this valid thinking?
>
> I think some people are saying that the Christ/Mithra
> connection has been debunked... god, how I hate that word.
> However, I would like to know how that happened?

I don't think it is valid thinking. There are many essays debunking the Jesus story as being original but there are also scholarly rebuttals of such claims. Sorry to bring up J/ P. Holding, again but I'll give one glaring problem with one of the more common misconceptions that Jesus = Mithras , the idea that both were born on the 25th of December. J. P. Holding:

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.

This claim, which I have seen repeated in part by the Secular Web's James Still, is a mix of truth and obfuscations. Let's begin with the December 25th part by noting Glenn Miller's reply, which is more than sufficient: "...the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all." This is something the later church did, wherever they got the idea from -- not the apostolic church, and if there was any borrowing at all, everyone did it, for Dec. 25th was "universally distinguished by sacred festivities" [Cum.MM, 196] being that it was (at the time) the winter solstice.

Next, the cave part. First of all, Mithra was not born of a virgin in a cave; he was born out of solid rock, which presumably left a cave behind -- and I suppose technically the rock he was born out of could have been classified as a virgin! Here is how one Mithraic scholar describes the scene on Mithraic depictions: Mithra "wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix." [MS.173] Mithra was born a grown-up, but you won't hear the copycatters mention this! (The rock-birth scene itself was a likely carryover from Perseus, who experienced a similar birth in an underground cavern; Ulan.OMM, 36.)

---

J. P. Holding laboriously goes through every facet of the claims that Jesus = Mithras and replies to them all in this essay: Mighty Mithraic Madness - Did The Mithraic Mysteries Influence Christianity?

---

> Also, I read somewhere that the origin of haloes came from AE
> depictions of Isis and Horus. Interesting. Remember we were
> wondering why some Renaissance painters used haloes and
> others didn't, and why Michelangelo and da Vinci didn't...
> though da Vinci was coerced into supplying them in his remake
> "Madonna of the Rocks." The Russians even went so far as to
> institutionalize haloes in all of their beautifully stylized
> icons and symbolic religious paintings. By the Middle Ages,
> belief was absolute and enforced with an iron hand,
> alternately a fist for coercion and a palm for accepting
> gifts, alms, tithes, and payment for indulgences.

Don't fall off your chair Ananda but I believe it is probably true that the origin of haloes came from AE depictions of Horus or Osiris. However, these depictions are only creations of the artists concerned. There is not a single description in the Bible of Jesus with a halo. The word "halo" is not found in the Bible.



Is Bush a Horus figure? Probably!

> Well, anyhow, I find it hard to believe that the Christ and
> Mary that fleshed out over the years just materialized out of
> the thin rarefied ether of heaven and fell on earth full
> blown with no other vertical or horizontal influences or
> histories to help us create them.

Erm, I don't think that's how it happened... Jesus was born, he didn't just appear fully blown but I've probably misuderstood what you were driving at here! The whole of the OT builds up to the arrival of Jesus also, so his arrival wasn't unexpected...

> Or were they indeed
> products of the spontaneous combustion of divine inspiration
> and miraculous events such as no one could invent or even
> come together to help create?

I believe Christ's birth was a natural happening, except that instead of a normal human baby spirit coming into the womb, some weeks or months after the original act of sex, a Divine being in the form of Jesus enetered her womb. Apparently, a foetus doesn't come to life until some time after the actual sex act. I forget when this is exactly supposed to be now...

Mary was probably a virgin in the sense that her union with Joseph was pure. This is a big sunfect in and of itself. I could expand if you request...

Rob

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 627 ananda 23-Feb-04 02:51
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 227 Milo 23-Feb-04 04:18
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 191 ananda 23-Feb-04 04:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 158 Milo 23-Feb-04 05:12
Mod Comment to you two 156 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 14:42
Re: Mod Comment to you two 161 Milo 23-Feb-04 15:00
Fallen Angels & Co. 172 Nejc 23-Feb-04 15:09
Re: Fallen Angels & Co. 187 Milo 23-Feb-04 15:18
Yes .. ups.. sorry..n/t 176 Nejc 23-Feb-04 15:27
it's me - lol 208 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 16:19
Re: it's me - lol 201 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:21
No probs n/t 206 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 16:30
Re: Divine Beings 195 Nebankh 23-Feb-04 16:47
Re: Divine Beings 188 Milo 23-Feb-04 17:17
Divine Agreement to Differ 197 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 17:58
Re: Divine Agreement to Differ 213 Milo 23-Feb-04 18:22
Believers and Researchers 225 Nejc 23-Feb-04 18:48
I am not a blind believer but a researcher 204 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:01
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 214 Nejc 23-Feb-04 19:15
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 190 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:19
Oh. Thanks for this one :) n/t 205 Nejc 23-Feb-04 19:22
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 160 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:21
On the other hand... 224 Nejc 23-Feb-04 20:21
Re: On the other hand... 193 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:39
Re: Divine Beings 238 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 19:00
Re: Divine Beings 168 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:09
Re: Divine Beings 237 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 19:24
Re: Divine Beings 174 David L 23-Feb-04 22:42
Is there another site for serious discussion? 222 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 23:09
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 194 Paul Mallon 24-Feb-04 18:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 185 Milo 24-Feb-04 19:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 169 David L 25-Feb-04 01:48
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 167 Milo 25-Feb-04 02:14
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 171 David L 25-Feb-04 03:03
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 166 Milo 25-Feb-04 06:37
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 174 David L 25-Feb-04 16:30
No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 188 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:18
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 173 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:47
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 183 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:54
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 178 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:58
Re: Cana 185 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:30
Re: Cana - missed off a bit! 170 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:32
Re: Cana - missed off a bit! 171 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:05
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 145 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:57
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 199 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:36
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 207 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 10:19
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 163 ananda 26-Feb-04 16:01
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 200 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:14
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 200 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:23
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 212 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:27
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 191 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:58
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 153 Milo 26-Feb-04 17:01
Augustinian vs. Gnostic (and even Pelagian) 186 ananda 26-Feb-04 17:30
Re: Augustinian vs. Gnostic (and even Pelagian) 175 Milo 26-Feb-04 17:43
In Addition.... 163 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 18:50
Point was missed 151 ananda 26-Feb-04 18:58
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 179 ArmchairObserver 25-Feb-04 18:45
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 169 Zosimos 25-Feb-04 18:53
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 174 ArmchairObserver 25-Feb-04 19:02
I misread the quoted passage... 158 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:28
Re: I misread the quoted passage... 204 David L 25-Feb-04 23:20
Re: I misread the quoted passage... 170 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:31
One more thing... 186 David L 25-Feb-04 23:25
Re: One more thing... 188 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:32
Also... 189 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:41
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 186 David L 25-Feb-04 23:08
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 185 Thirdwave 25-Feb-04 23:33
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 196 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:36
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 175 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:01
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 172 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:37
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 197 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:53
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 169 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:58
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 200 sunbeam 23-Feb-04 15:50
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 197 ananda 23-Feb-04 16:15
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 206 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:28
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 201 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:25
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 188 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:36
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 202 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 205 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:49
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 175 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:22
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 148 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:26
Osirus - Seprapis - Christianity 200 Jaimi 23-Feb-04 21:04
Re: Osirus - Seprapis - Christianity 218 Milo 23-Feb-04 21:27
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 208 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:23
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 202 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:32
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 205 Paul Mallon 24-Feb-04 19:43
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 195 Milo 24-Feb-04 20:19
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 197 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:35
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 164 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:35
And by the way... 196 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:36
Re: And by the way... 212 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:42
Re: And by the way... 164 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:14
Re: And by the way... 171 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:28
Re: And by the way... 190 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 16:48
Sources? 184 ananda 26-Feb-04 17:24
Re: Sources? 175 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 18:29
Re: And by the way... 259 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 17:00
Re: And by the way... 183 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 17:45
Re: And by the way... 265 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 18:20
Re: And by the way... 173 ananda 26-Feb-04 18:49
Re: And by the way... 242 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 19:15
Re: And by the way... 160 ananda 26-Feb-04 21:11
Re: And by the way... 239 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 23:30
Re: And by the way... 230 Zosimos 27-Feb-04 00:14
Re: And by the way... 173 Kboldt 27-Feb-04 13:35
Re: And by the way... 221 Zosimos 27-Feb-04 16:44
Re: And by the way... 302 Kboldt 27-Feb-04 16:46
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 191 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:40
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 183 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 218 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:57
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 214 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:19
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 249 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:23
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 202 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:24
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 201 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:34
Challenge to Milo 198 ananda 23-Feb-04 21:21
Re: Challenge to Milo 225 Milo 23-Feb-04 21:38
Re: Challenge to Milo 262 ananda 23-Feb-04 21:43
Re: Challenge to Milo 197 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:31
Yes you are n/t 207 Nejc 23-Feb-04 21:56
Re: Yes you are n/t 178 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:25
Then again... 182 Nejc 24-Feb-04 08:31
Big Blue :) 200 Thirdwave 24-Feb-04 10:54
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 172 debraregypt 23-Feb-04 15:53
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 193 ananda 23-Feb-04 16:16
Archetypes of the collective unconscious 232 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:55
Re: Archetypes of the collective unconscious 218 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:04
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 209 David L 23-Feb-04 22:28
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 193 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 202 David L 24-Feb-04 01:35
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 197 Milo 24-Feb-04 01:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 174 Lee McGiffen 25-Feb-04 09:51
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 157 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:22
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 219 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:24
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 204 Milo 26-Feb-04 15:55
Lee... What about Moses? 203 ananda 26-Feb-04 16:12
Evidence that Jesus Existed 171 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:16
Re: Lee... What about Moses? 190 David L 26-Feb-04 20:37
Deblinkering debunkers... 198 Morph 24-Feb-04 15:26
Re: Deblinkering debunkers... 203 Zosimos 24-Feb-04 18:50
Re: Deblinkering debunkers... 165 Morph 25-Feb-04 15:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 191 Lee McGiffen 25-Feb-04 09:58
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 186 ananda 25-Feb-04 13:10
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 189 Milo 25-Feb-04 16:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 172 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:27
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 173 Zosimos 25-Feb-04 21:16
Re: Christ and Dionysis - good article 179 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:58
6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 177 Milo 25-Feb-04 18:05
Re: 6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 174 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:14
Re: 6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 177 Milo 25-Feb-04 18:34
Hmmm... 218 Morph 26-Feb-04 15:16
Re: Hmmm... 203 Morph 26-Feb-04 15:20
Re: Hmmm... 188 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:44
Au Contraire... 188 Morph 27-Feb-04 14:36


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