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Hi Kees,

>>I’ve worked through your reply and I’ve come up with this. Hope you find the time to go over it.<<

I will make the time, particularly in that many of your ideas have been the stimulus for much additional thought on my part. Thank you.

>>On the other hand, I would like you to consider what science has brought us. To me, it brought us a lot of answers but a multitude more of questions. This is a “I am resplending in divergence” as Robert Fripp once played on his guitar, that will lead us nowhere but into the material world. Mind you, I have no right or wrong qualification attached to that. It’s only a matter of choice one has. Although largely over my head here, on the background to this one could see the decent from higher astral planes (and byond) as individuals, as well as of our entire specie. Basically it is a natural process, a mechanism.<<

I have thought about science extensively, and I've re-written this paragraph several times in an attempt to express my general take on science's efforts. The following, I think says it best:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber" (Jn 10:1)

Science hasn't answered squat. Certainly it has, in effect, taken for itself and remade the world in it's image. These are just appearances though -- aesthetics -- crudely, yet charmingly reconfigured molecules. No answers though. Things go on as before in an endlessly, ceaselessly circular spiral (downward, as you note). Entropy. To the dust we shall return -- to the dense, compact, homogenaity of matter described as "without form, and void" in the first chapter of Genesis (alternately described by science as a black hole, lol).

Really, what's the difference between the 50K or so of men, women, and children of the Canaanites the Israelites slaughtered in occupying the promised land, and the 3 million or so who've died in the US from cancer the last five years? Smoking? LOL!


Seems to me science has been much more brutal in carving out a place for itself in this world than ANY temporal power and, while it has been variously described as merely the "instrument" of policy, those with eyes to see know better. Contrary to a rather useful misapprehension on the part of the uninitiated, science is not concerned with the question "why." Only with "why not." And he employs his hired guns -- marvelously skilled rhetoricians -- to ensure the answer to this question never comes to light. Right and wrong does come into play here, IMHO.

Here's a symbol expressed in one word:


Here's a sign expressed in a verse:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand), then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" (Mt 24:15-19)

When I consider what science has wraught Oedipus Rex comes to mind.

>>On the snake symbol.
I am aware that the snake symbol is used many times over in various way’s in different cultures. So all you suggest could very well be true. Next to the snake symbolising the material world in that paradise lost interpretation I gave, I am also aware that the snake is seen as a depiction of kundalini. I give great value to that.<<

Frankly, I don't see anything in the OT or NT that prescribes particular practices as a way to attain unto God (certainly, however, in Jesus' example, there is the suggestion that if you start pointing out, in word or deed, the hypocrisy of people professing to have God and the creation's best interests at heart, one might just get to meet one's maker a lot sooner than one may have anticipated). Cain, we're told, was driven mad by the understanding Abel evinced for what pleased God. All Abel had to do was move sheep from one place of abundant grass to another, whereas Cain labored morning, noon, and night to create the bounty he'd brought God. He'd trenched and he'd sown and he'd irrigated and he'd guarded against nocturnal ruminants -- didn't God see his perfectly lined up rows of fruits, the complicated mechanism of his irrigation system, how he'd learned to dung his plot to get a second and even third yield in a growing season, how he'd patiently studied and cross pollinated between different sub-species to get a bigger, or sweeter, or hardier fruit.

"I did it all for YOU, God!"

"Um, no, Cain, [dub James Earl Jones voice] if you'll recall, I found no shortcoming in my creation. At the end of each day of the process, I saw that it was good -- and at the end of the sixth day, I saw that it was all VERY good. All that you brought me grows abundantly all over the world. What all your labor was about was only so YOU wouldn't have to go out and find them. You may see room for improvement in My efforts in this regard; but you don't have the big picture. Still, you may yet learn from your efforts -- "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door" (Gen 4:7). Of course there IS a curious property to plant-life you ought to be aware of. More closely bound to the matter from which they sprang, they tend to exhibit the entropic, chaotic nature of matter much more strongly than anything else on this world. Your younger brother, Abel, seems to have snapped to what I had in mind for your parents when I created them before the plants and herbs and trees. I placed them in a garden to dress and to keep it. Somebody needs to keep an eye on those plants -- they grow like crazy, get infested with snakes, start sucking up all the water, start blocking out the sunlight, start taking on an impenetrable mass that grows and grows and grows -- left to their own devices, plants would swiftly bring death and chaos to the life and order I have established here. Unfortunately, ruminants don't have what it takes to ruminate where it's needful (they're not that far removed from the plant-life, you see), your brother, however, saw the need and took the initiative, using the ruminants as a pair of garden shears. Perhaps now you'll understand why I'm so pleased with his offering, and not so pleased that you've effectively "planted" yourself over yonder, much like your parents tried to do in the grove among the fig trees . . .?"

Of course, one's imagination can also run wild . . .

>>Please expand on the Nephilim remark.<<

Well, we have giant Sequoias. We have the fossil records of giant reptiles. Clearly the nature of matter is to take on mass. So couple that base nature with an infusion of spirit -- an infusion of other-directed life -- a spirit of division and subtraction opposed to a nature for multiplication and addition -- and you have the potential to curb such instability and create a stable platform for . . . more life. Quench the spirit -- disable the failsafe -- upset the balance that includes a relative handful of groundskeepers -- and, ultimately, giantism rears its unbalanced, unchecked, unsymetrical head. The base nature of matter, unrestrained by spirit, results in death for everything we know as life. God, it appears, didn't lie to his children.

Doubt this Old Testament reading?

Ask what was symbolized in the tale of the great and mighty instrument of God, Nebuchadnezzar, on his hands and knees, eating grass in a field like a beast for seven years . . .


Stars? LOL!

Warm regards,


Ps. I checked out your link and a couple of Matthew's works will be accessible tomorrow. I've always had a peculiar affinity for the Celts and, interestingly, my eldest fancies himself to be on a druidic path. Maybe he'll teach his tricksy ol' dad a thing or two, eh?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The origin of Christian religion 603 Kees 06-Feb-04 16:28
Re: The origin of Christian religion 168 maria k. 06-Feb-04 19:18
Re: The origin of Christian religion 188 Kees 06-Feb-04 21:49
Re: The origin of Christian religion 161 Hoppy 06-Feb-04 22:21
Re: The origin of Christian religion 165 Kees 06-Feb-04 22:57
Re: The origin of Christian religion 158 Mark Staab 07-Feb-04 00:59
Re: The origin of Christian religion 165 maria k. 07-Feb-04 02:47
Re: The origin of Christian religion 194 solar_fox 07-Feb-04 04:01
Ezekiel's Wheel 171 maria k. 07-Feb-04 04:32
The Four Beasts 167 Milo 07-Feb-04 05:06
Re: The Four Beasts 179 maria k. 07-Feb-04 06:02
Re: The Four Beasts 185 Milo 07-Feb-04 06:23
Re: The Four Beasts 170 solar_fox 07-Feb-04 07:02
Re: The Four Beasts 163 Milo 07-Feb-04 07:38
to solarfox 165 maria k. 07-Feb-04 19:37
Re: The Four Beasts 173 maria k. 07-Feb-04 07:36
Re: The Four Beasts 164 Milo 07-Feb-04 07:43
Re: The Four Beasts 168 Milo 07-Feb-04 07:53
Re: The Four Beasts 181 maria k. 07-Feb-04 19:12
Re: The Four Beasts 169 Milo 07-Feb-04 19:36
Hidden Meanings 187 Elizabeth Newton 08-Feb-04 07:17
Re: Hidden Meanings 179 maria k. 08-Feb-04 08:13
Re: Hidden Meanings 247 Laird Scranton 08-Feb-04 16:59
Re: Hidden Meanings 174 maria k. 08-Feb-04 20:48
Re: Hidden Meanings 236 Laird Scranton 09-Feb-04 02:40
Re: Hidden Meanings 170 Mark Staab 09-Feb-04 07:42
Re: Hidden Meanings 237 Laird Scranton 09-Feb-04 21:26
Re: Hidden Meanings 182 Jaimi 10-Feb-04 04:18
Re: Hidden Meanings 219 Laird Scranton 10-Feb-04 22:24
Re: The Four Beasts 192 Lee McGiffen 07-Feb-04 12:02
Re: The origin of Christian religion 161 Mark Staab 08-Feb-04 01:19
Re: The origin of Christian religion 166 maria k. 08-Feb-04 21:02
Re: The origin of Christian religion 207 Kees 08-Feb-04 22:04
Re: The origin of Christian religion 149 Mark Staab 09-Feb-04 08:48
the bible's &quot;written word&quot; 179 maria k. 09-Feb-04 20:50
Re: the bible's &quot;written word&quot; 173 Milo 09-Feb-04 21:08
Re: the bible's &quot;written word&quot; 166 Mark Staab 09-Feb-04 21:43
Re: the bible's &quot;written word&quot; 181 Milo 10-Feb-04 02:36
Re: the bible's &quot;written word&quot; 183 maria k. 09-Feb-04 22:32
So called glib comments 262 Richard Fusniak 10-Feb-04 00:37
Re: So called glib comments 247 Milo 10-Feb-04 02:29
What use is the bible? 215 Richard Fusniak 10-Feb-04 23:06
Re: What use is the bible? 164 Milo 10-Feb-04 23:15
Re: What use is the bible? 175 Richard Fusniak 11-Feb-04 23:59
Re: What use is the bible? 172 Milo 12-Feb-04 00:21
I forgot to comment on.... 194 Milo 12-Feb-04 00:25
The Vicarious Atonement 178 Richard Fusniak 12-Feb-04 02:31
Re: The Vicarious Atonement 361 Milo 12-Feb-04 03:31
Thanks Fuzzy! 162 maria k. 11-Feb-04 05:04
Re: Thanks Fuzzy! 174 Milo 11-Feb-04 05:33
correction... 150 Milo 11-Feb-04 05:46
Re: correction... 156 maria k. 11-Feb-04 06:37
Re: correction... 171 Milo 11-Feb-04 06:51
Re: correction... 165 maria k. 11-Feb-04 07:34
Re: correction... 161 Milo 11-Feb-04 07:38
Re: correction... 201 maria k. 11-Feb-04 18:59
Re: correction... 176 Milo 11-Feb-04 19:11
Re: The origin of Christian religion 162 Kees 07-Feb-04 11:23
Re: The origin of Christian religion 175 Mark Staab 08-Feb-04 01:34
Re: The origin of Christian religion 170 Mark Staab 08-Feb-04 01:26
Re: The origin of Christian religion 168 Kees 08-Feb-04 10:00
Re: The origin of Christian religion 172 Kees 08-Feb-04 13:37
Re: The origin of Christian religion 173 solar_fox 09-Feb-04 01:10
Re: The origin of Christian religion 176 Jaimi 09-Feb-04 05:16
Re: The origin of Christian religion 171 maria k. 09-Feb-04 05:56
Re: The origin of Christian religion 178 solar_fox 09-Feb-04 07:53
Re: The origin of Christian religion 178 Mark Staab 09-Feb-04 06:47

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