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Hi Mark,

You asked the question:
>>How, in light of through whom the "fall" is purported to have come, was Eve
ever to be a help "meet" for Adam? She did seem to have a way with serpents

I think it's as simple as giving adam something other than himself to love..... in the focussing of ones love on another, we lose the "ego-trip" bit, without losing the self (I'm talking about absolute Love here lol, the kind that we pay lipservice to these days).

>>But such an approach to self knowledge, to me, seems interminable. To me it
seems a trap of the Ego. Ego is sly and crafty.

Yes, I agree 100%. The only way to get rid of "ego" is to forget about fixing oneself and just get on with living the best we can - if we focus our lives on getting rid of ego, we are in fact so totally absorbed in ourselves that we can't see further than our own ego! To even assume that we can fix ourselves is egotistical in the extreme.

In fact, one should define ego here, in order to discuss this constructively (people seem to have very different ideas these days as to the Real meaning of words). According to the Oxford dictionary:

ego : (Metaphysical)concious thinking subject;(Psych.) part of the mind that reacts to reality and has sense of individuality; self-esteem.

and interestingly -

ego-trip:

activity etc. devoted to one's own interests or feelings

Now I have no problem with ego as defined by the dictionary, but I do have a problem with the ego-trip! In fact I would in the metaphysical sense, like to improve my "ego" ie concious thinking part as oposed to my subconcious. And, psychologically, I believe this raising of conciousness will improve the way that I react to reality. The Psychology definition reminds me of the scene in the Matrix where Smith has multiplied into a whole host of Smith's whose motivation is to turn everone else into a Smith.... no individual's and that to me is horrific. The Smith's are threatened by anything that isn't Smith. I love the differences in people (even their ideas) - they inspire me and make me think deeper. In fact if everyone were identical, there would be no point in anything... would there?

As far as ego-trip goes, I think this is what we are actually referring to here when we say "ego" is bad and from the definition, it would seem that your statement:

>>But such an approach to self knowledge, to me, seems interminable. To me it
seems a trap of the Ego. Ego is sly and crafty. >>

is spot on. This focussing on the self is the absolute ego-trip.

What I find interesting is the Hebrew word that we have translated as "naked"

Genesis2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

The word is : arom aw-rome and is written the same way as aram aw-ram which means:

1) to be subtle, be shrewd, be crafty, beware, take crafty counsel, be prudent
1a) (Qal) to be crafty, be subtle
1b) (Hiphil) to be crafty, be or become shrewd

and is in fact used here as a past participle to describe the serpent:

Genesis3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

So the subtlety of the serpent and the nakedness of man was the same thing!

The word serpent is also very badly transliterated. The word translated as serpent is nachash naw-khawsh’ and indeed does mean:

1) serpent, snake
1a) serpent
1b) image (of serpent)
1c) fleeing serpent (mythological)

But the word nachash is from an earlier root word nachash naw-khash’ which has a different meaning, but is written identically:

1) to practice divination, divine, observe signs, learn by experience, diligently observe, practice fortune telling, take as an omen
1a) (Piel)
1a1) to practice divination
1a2) to observe the signs or omens

The two words are identical even though they are translated differently. The latter being the older meaning of the word serpent and hence, I believe, the more correct interpretation since the story of the fall is the oldest in human history and would hence have used the earliest form of the word. When Adam said Nachash, he would had used the earliest meaning.

This ‘serpent’ is an intelligent being with “supernatural” powers and not a slithering reptile.

Another word of interest is ‘beguiled’:
nasha’ naw-shaw’
AV-deceive 12, greatly 1, beguiled me 1, seize 1, utterly 1; 16

You will notice immediately the similarity between the two words nachash (serpent) and nasha (beguiled).

Adam and Eve did possess the "knowledge" of self, but it wasn't an introspective knowledge:

genesis3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

God asks who told you that you were naked ... clearly they had eyes, they could see....The Nachash beguiled them. It was the temptation to become independant "gods" (as God) that perverted their knowledge. Instead of simply being, they were striving to become. This is the illusion - we already are everything we will ever be, but in thinking that we are not, we don't behave in the right way. Instead of walking with God in the cool, we hide from Him.

The trees in the garden are also very interesting, but that is is long study LOL so I'll leave it now...

Blessings
Banah

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Questions about Truth 703 adequatedane 24-Jan-04 10:24
Re: Questions about Truth 166 Segestan 24-Jan-04 14:00
Re: Questions about Truth 159 adequatedane 25-Jan-04 08:38
Re: Questions about Truth 198 gene douglas 24-Jan-04 14:57
Re: Questions about Truth 165 Alex S 25-Jan-04 01:13
Re: Questions about Truth 164 gene douglas 25-Jan-04 04:04
Re: Questions about Truth 174 Alex S 26-Jan-04 01:18
Re: Questions about Truth 184 gene douglas 26-Jan-04 02:14
Re: Questions about Truth 168 Alex S 27-Jan-04 01:57
Re: Questions about Truth 161 gene douglas 27-Jan-04 09:44
Re: Questions about Truth 153 adequatedane 25-Jan-04 08:34
Re: Questions about Truth 182 adequatedane 25-Jan-04 08:42
Re: Questions about Truth 170 gene douglas 25-Jan-04 10:05
Re: Questions about Truth 168 adequatedane 25-Jan-04 11:21
Re: Questions about Truth 160 gene douglas 25-Jan-04 15:40
Re: Questions about Truth 177 gene douglas 25-Jan-04 16:14
Re: Questions about Truth 168 adequatedane 25-Jan-04 17:06
Re: Questions about Truth 156 gene douglas 25-Jan-04 21:51
Re: Questions about Truth 169 adequatedane 26-Jan-04 22:50
Re: Questions about Truth 158 David L 24-Jan-04 15:55
Re: Questions about Truth 154 newrisingsun 24-Jan-04 17:32
Re: Questions about Truth 167 RichardC 24-Jan-04 23:40
Re: Questions about Truth 185 David L 25-Jan-04 03:46
Re: Questions about Truth 161 RichardC 25-Jan-04 19:45
Re: Questions about Truth 166 David L 25-Jan-04 20:49
Re: Questions about Truth 186 adequatedane 25-Jan-04 09:37
Re: Questions about Truth 164 David L 25-Jan-04 17:31
Re: Questions about Truth 154 adequatedane 26-Jan-04 22:55
Re: Questions about Truth 173 adequatedane 28-Jan-04 23:04
Re: Questions about Truth 150 David L 28-Jan-04 23:28
Re: Questions about Truth 156 adequatedane 29-Jan-04 23:01
Re: Questions about Truth 162 wirelessguru1 29-Jan-04 23:26
Re: Questions about Truth 172 David L 30-Jan-04 03:24
Re: Questions about Truth 181 wirelessguru1 30-Jan-04 03:48
Re: Questions about Truth 188 David L 30-Jan-04 22:32
Re: Questions about Truth 157 wirelessguru1 31-Jan-04 00:30
Re: Questions about Truth 154 adequatedane 30-Jan-04 21:01
Re: Questions about Truth 173 David L 30-Jan-04 22:24
Re: Questions about Truth 155 banah 31-Jan-04 09:13
Re: Questions about Truth 159 David L 31-Jan-04 14:20
Re: Questions about Truth 182 banah 31-Jan-04 20:20
Re: Questions about Truth 168 David L 01-Feb-04 01:59
Jesus didn't say anything of the sort 155 Richard Fusniak 01-Feb-04 14:28
Re: Jesus didn't say anything of the sort 212 banah 01-Feb-04 17:21
Re: Questions about Truth 156 Zurg 03-Feb-04 08:12
Re: Questions about Truth 151 banah 04-Feb-04 10:58
Re: Questions about Truth 184 adequatedane 31-Jan-04 10:17
Re: Questions about Truth 166 banah 31-Jan-04 09:20
Re: Questions about Truth 180 David L 30-Jan-04 03:26
We don't live in a "true or false" world... 161 David L 30-Jan-04 03:30
Re: We don't live in a "true or false" world... 173 banah 31-Jan-04 09:27
Re: We don't live in a "true or false" world... 163 adequatedane 31-Jan-04 10:53
Re: We don't live in a "true or false" world... 154 David L 31-Jan-04 13:38
Re: We don't live in a "true or false" world... 163 banah 31-Jan-04 20:47
Re: Questions about Truth 140 RichardC 24-Jan-04 23:50
Re: Questions about Truth 196 adequatedane 25-Jan-04 09:48
Re: Questions about Truth 186 RichardC 25-Jan-04 19:49
Re: Questions about Truth 172 adequatedane 26-Jan-04 23:00
Re: Questions about Truth 196 RichardC 26-Jan-04 23:32
Re: Questions about Truth 172 banah 25-Jan-04 17:56
Re: Questions about Truth 161 adequatedane 26-Jan-04 23:24
No such thing 172 Nejc 25-Jan-04 23:13
Re: No such thing 177 adequatedane 26-Jan-04 23:40
Re: No such thing 158 Alex S 27-Jan-04 14:13
Re: No such thing 160 gene douglas 27-Jan-04 19:01
Re: Questions about Truth 176 Mark Staab 25-Jan-04 23:35
Re: Questions about Truth 163 adequatedane 27-Jan-04 00:15
Re: Questions about Truth 166 Mark Staab 27-Jan-04 02:00
Re: Questions about Truth 163 adequatedane 27-Jan-04 22:40
Re: Questions about Truth 176 banah 30-Jan-04 19:40
Re: Questions about Truth 156 Mark Staab 30-Jan-04 22:22
Re: Questions about Truth 170 banah 31-Jan-04 11:05
Re: Questions about Truth 206 Mark Staab 01-Feb-04 06:33
Re: Questions about Truth 201 banah 01-Feb-04 11:48
Re: Questions about Truth 165 adequatedane 01-Feb-04 16:06
Re: Questions about Truth 151 banah 01-Feb-04 17:25
Re: Questions about Truth 172 adequatedane 02-Feb-04 23:58
Re: Questions about Truth 173 banah 04-Feb-04 11:04
Re: Questions about Truth 167 adequatedane 05-Feb-04 22:26
Re: Questions about Truth 150 banah 07-Feb-04 13:19
Re: Questions about Truth 186 adequatedane 07-Feb-04 14:47
Re: ps 160 banah 01-Feb-04 17:29
Re: Questions about Truth 156 Mark Staab 01-Feb-04 23:42
Re: Questions about Truth 150 banah 04-Feb-04 11:07
Tree of knowledge is the kundalini shakti 176 David L 01-Feb-04 21:33
Re: Tree of knowledge is the kundalini shakti 181 Mark Staab 02-Feb-04 02:09
Re: Tree of knowledge is the kundalini shakti 213 David L 02-Feb-04 23:50
Re: Tree of knowledge is the kundalini shakti 162 Mark Staab 03-Feb-04 05:57
Re: Tree of knowledge is the kundalini shakti 193 David L 03-Feb-04 16:11
Regarding the Old Testament... 153 David L 03-Feb-04 16:19
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 166 banah 04-Feb-04 10:45
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 149 David L 04-Feb-04 13:49
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 169 Mark Staab 05-Feb-04 00:38
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 149 David L 05-Feb-04 01:07
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 178 banah 05-Feb-04 16:48
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 172 David L 05-Feb-04 19:51
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 165 wirelessguru1 06-Feb-04 00:50
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 189 David L 06-Feb-04 01:49
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 173 wirelessguru1 06-Feb-04 02:24
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 151 Anne-Marie 06-Feb-04 07:36
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 169 adequatedane 06-Feb-04 14:09
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 163 David L 06-Feb-04 18:37
Who speaks the truth... 181 wirelessguru1 07-Feb-04 01:37
Re: Who speaks the truth... 176 David L 07-Feb-04 06:12
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 170 banah 07-Feb-04 13:05
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 192 David L 07-Feb-04 15:49
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 170 Anne-Marie 06-Feb-04 07:22
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 154 wirelessguru1 07-Feb-04 02:28
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 172 Anne-Marie 07-Feb-04 08:19
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 149 banah 07-Feb-04 13:13
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 171 David L 07-Feb-04 16:17
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 166 Cesar 07-Feb-04 17:22
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 209 David L 07-Feb-04 17:48
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 163 Anne-Marie 07-Feb-04 19:59
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 176 David L 07-Feb-04 22:01
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 178 wirelessguru1 08-Feb-04 19:23
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 171 Anne-Marie 08-Feb-04 20:18
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 505 wirelessguru1 08-Feb-04 21:08
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 157 Cesar 08-Feb-04 18:31
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 155 David L 08-Feb-04 19:15
Re: Questions about Truth 176 Caduceus 27-Jan-04 01:32
Re: Questions about Truth 178 adequatedane 27-Jan-04 22:49
Re: Questions about Truth 165 Caduceus 29-Jan-04 04:12
Re: Questions about Truth 175 xiang 27-Jan-04 03:16
Re: Questions about Truth 160 Caduceus 27-Jan-04 10:53
Re: Questions about Truth 186 wirelessguru1 27-Jan-04 17:49
Re: Questions about Truth 156 adequatedane 27-Jan-04 22:13
Re: Questions about Truth 169 wirelessguru1 27-Jan-04 22:28
Re: Questions about Truth 157 adequatedane 27-Jan-04 23:16
Re: Questions about Truth 192 wirelessguru1 28-Jan-04 00:04
Re: Questions about Truth 178 adequatedane 28-Jan-04 21:32
Re: Questions about Truth 165 xiang 28-Jan-04 01:50
Re: Questions about Truth 175 adequatedane 28-Jan-04 21:55
Re: Questions about Truth 170 wirelessguru1 27-Jan-04 07:57
Re: Questions about Truth 161 adequatedane 27-Jan-04 23:24
Re: Questions about Truth 151 wirelessguru1 28-Jan-04 00:24
Re: Questions about Truth 157 adequatedane 28-Jan-04 22:22
Re: Questions about Truth 143 wirelessguru1 29-Jan-04 01:03
Re: Questions about Truth 144 adequatedane 29-Jan-04 23:35
Re: Questions about Truth 161 wirelessguru1 29-Jan-04 23:56
Re: Questions about Truth 182 adequatedane 30-Jan-04 02:19
Re: Questions about Truth 164 wirelessguru1 30-Jan-04 03:15
Re: Questions about Truth 151 adequatedane 30-Jan-04 21:32
Re: Questions about Truth 170 wirelessguru1 31-Jan-04 01:04
Re: Questions about Truth 181 adequatedane 31-Jan-04 09:23
Re: Questions about Truth 160 wirelessguru1 31-Jan-04 19:33
Re: Questions about Truth 177 Zurg 30-Jan-04 13:19
Re: Questions about Truth 160 adequatedane 30-Jan-04 22:07
Re: Questions about Truth 169 Dominick Ohrbeck 30-Jan-04 21:39
Re: Questions about Truth 157 adequatedane 31-Jan-04 10:47
Re: Questions about Truth 160 Cesar 08-Feb-04 11:51


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