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Hi Mark,

You asked the question:
>>How, in light of through whom the "fall" is purported to have come, was Eve
ever to be a help "meet" for Adam? She did seem to have a way with serpents

I think it's as simple as giving adam something other than himself to love..... in the focussing of ones love on another, we lose the "ego-trip" bit, without losing the self (I'm talking about absolute Love here lol, the kind that we pay lipservice to these days).

>>But such an approach to self knowledge, to me, seems interminable. To me it
seems a trap of the Ego. Ego is sly and crafty.

Yes, I agree 100%. The only way to get rid of "ego" is to forget about fixing oneself and just get on with living the best we can - if we focus our lives on getting rid of ego, we are in fact so totally absorbed in ourselves that we can't see further than our own ego! To even assume that we can fix ourselves is egotistical in the extreme.

In fact, one should define ego here, in order to discuss this constructively (people seem to have very different ideas these days as to the Real meaning of words). According to the Oxford dictionary:

ego : (Metaphysical)concious thinking subject;(Psych.) part of the mind that reacts to reality and has sense of individuality; self-esteem.

and interestingly -

ego-trip:

activity etc. devoted to one's own interests or feelings

Now I have no problem with ego as defined by the dictionary, but I do have a problem with the ego-trip! In fact I would in the metaphysical sense, like to improve my "ego" ie concious thinking part as oposed to my subconcious. And, psychologically, I believe this raising of conciousness will improve the way that I react to reality. The Psychology definition reminds me of the scene in the Matrix where Smith has multiplied into a whole host of Smith's whose motivation is to turn everone else into a Smith.... no individual's and that to me is horrific. The Smith's are threatened by anything that isn't Smith. I love the differences in people (even their ideas) - they inspire me and make me think deeper. In fact if everyone were identical, there would be no point in anything... would there?

As far as ego-trip goes, I think this is what we are actually referring to here when we say "ego" is bad and from the definition, it would seem that your statement:

>>But such an approach to self knowledge, to me, seems interminable. To me it
seems a trap of the Ego. Ego is sly and crafty. >>

is spot on. This focussing on the self is the absolute ego-trip.

What I find interesting is the Hebrew word that we have translated as "naked"

Genesis2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

The word is : arom aw-rome and is written the same way as aram aw-ram which means:

1) to be subtle, be shrewd, be crafty, beware, take crafty counsel, be prudent
1a) (Qal) to be crafty, be subtle
1b) (Hiphil) to be crafty, be or become shrewd

and is in fact used here as a past participle to describe the serpent:

Genesis3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

So the subtlety of the serpent and the nakedness of man was the same thing!

The word serpent is also very badly transliterated. The word translated as serpent is nachash naw-khawsh’ and indeed does mean:

1) serpent, snake
1a) serpent
1b) image (of serpent)
1c) fleeing serpent (mythological)

But the word nachash is from an earlier root word nachash naw-khash’ which has a different meaning, but is written identically:

1) to practice divination, divine, observe signs, learn by experience, diligently observe, practice fortune telling, take as an omen
1a) (Piel)
1a1) to practice divination
1a2) to observe the signs or omens

The two words are identical even though they are translated differently. The latter being the older meaning of the word serpent and hence, I believe, the more correct interpretation since the story of the fall is the oldest in human history and would hence have used the earliest form of the word. When Adam said Nachash, he would had used the earliest meaning.

This ‘serpent’ is an intelligent being with “supernatural” powers and not a slithering reptile.

Another word of interest is ‘beguiled’:
nasha’ naw-shaw’
AV-deceive 12, greatly 1, beguiled me 1, seize 1, utterly 1; 16

You will notice immediately the similarity between the two words nachash (serpent) and nasha (beguiled).

Adam and Eve did possess the "knowledge" of self, but it wasn't an introspective knowledge:

genesis3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

God asks who told you that you were naked ... clearly they had eyes, they could see....The Nachash beguiled them. It was the temptation to become independant "gods" (as God) that perverted their knowledge. Instead of simply being, they were striving to become. This is the illusion - we already are everything we will ever be, but in thinking that we are not, we don't behave in the right way. Instead of walking with God in the cool, we hide from Him.

The trees in the garden are also very interesting, but that is is long study LOL so I'll leave it now...

Blessings
Banah

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Questions about Truth 591 adequatedane 24-Jan-04 10:24
Re: Questions about Truth 121 Segestan 24-Jan-04 14:00
Re: Questions about Truth 113 adequatedane 25-Jan-04 08:38
Re: Questions about Truth 146 gene douglas 24-Jan-04 14:57
Re: Questions about Truth 118 Alex S 25-Jan-04 01:13
Re: Questions about Truth 112 gene douglas 25-Jan-04 04:04
Re: Questions about Truth 123 Alex S 26-Jan-04 01:18
Re: Questions about Truth 133 gene douglas 26-Jan-04 02:14
Re: Questions about Truth 120 Alex S 27-Jan-04 01:57
Re: Questions about Truth 110 gene douglas 27-Jan-04 09:44
Re: Questions about Truth 100 adequatedane 25-Jan-04 08:34
Re: Questions about Truth 127 adequatedane 25-Jan-04 08:42
Re: Questions about Truth 119 gene douglas 25-Jan-04 10:05
Re: Questions about Truth 121 adequatedane 25-Jan-04 11:21
Re: Questions about Truth 115 gene douglas 25-Jan-04 15:40
Re: Questions about Truth 125 gene douglas 25-Jan-04 16:14
Re: Questions about Truth 119 adequatedane 25-Jan-04 17:06
Re: Questions about Truth 107 gene douglas 25-Jan-04 21:51
Re: Questions about Truth 116 adequatedane 26-Jan-04 22:50
Re: Questions about Truth 106 David L 24-Jan-04 15:55
Re: Questions about Truth 99 newrisingsun 24-Jan-04 17:32
Re: Questions about Truth 120 RichardC 24-Jan-04 23:40
Re: Questions about Truth 140 David L 25-Jan-04 03:46
Re: Questions about Truth 110 RichardC 25-Jan-04 19:45
Re: Questions about Truth 120 David L 25-Jan-04 20:49
Re: Questions about Truth 135 adequatedane 25-Jan-04 09:37
Re: Questions about Truth 115 David L 25-Jan-04 17:31
Re: Questions about Truth 107 adequatedane 26-Jan-04 22:55
Re: Questions about Truth 127 adequatedane 28-Jan-04 23:04
Re: Questions about Truth 108 David L 28-Jan-04 23:28
Re: Questions about Truth 110 adequatedane 29-Jan-04 23:01
Re: Questions about Truth 118 wirelessguru1 29-Jan-04 23:26
Re: Questions about Truth 123 David L 30-Jan-04 03:24
Re: Questions about Truth 132 wirelessguru1 30-Jan-04 03:48
Re: Questions about Truth 137 David L 30-Jan-04 22:32
Re: Questions about Truth 108 wirelessguru1 31-Jan-04 00:30
Re: Questions about Truth 104 adequatedane 30-Jan-04 21:01
Re: Questions about Truth 123 David L 30-Jan-04 22:24
Re: Questions about Truth 108 banah 31-Jan-04 09:13
Re: Questions about Truth 113 David L 31-Jan-04 14:20
Re: Questions about Truth 135 banah 31-Jan-04 20:20
Re: Questions about Truth 121 David L 01-Feb-04 01:59
Jesus didn't say anything of the sort 108 Richard Fusniak 01-Feb-04 14:28
Re: Jesus didn't say anything of the sort 146 banah 01-Feb-04 17:21
Re: Questions about Truth 107 Zurg 03-Feb-04 08:12
Re: Questions about Truth 108 banah 04-Feb-04 10:58
Re: Questions about Truth 136 adequatedane 31-Jan-04 10:17
Re: Questions about Truth 121 banah 31-Jan-04 09:20
Re: Questions about Truth 126 David L 30-Jan-04 03:26
We don't live in a "true or false" world... 107 David L 30-Jan-04 03:30
Re: We don't live in a "true or false" world... 124 banah 31-Jan-04 09:27
Re: We don't live in a "true or false" world... 112 adequatedane 31-Jan-04 10:53
Re: We don't live in a "true or false" world... 108 David L 31-Jan-04 13:38
Re: We don't live in a "true or false" world... 114 banah 31-Jan-04 20:47
Re: Questions about Truth 95 RichardC 24-Jan-04 23:50
Re: Questions about Truth 133 adequatedane 25-Jan-04 09:48
Re: Questions about Truth 131 RichardC 25-Jan-04 19:49
Re: Questions about Truth 122 adequatedane 26-Jan-04 23:00
Re: Questions about Truth 139 RichardC 26-Jan-04 23:32
Re: Questions about Truth 137 banah 25-Jan-04 17:56
Re: Questions about Truth 112 adequatedane 26-Jan-04 23:24
No such thing 128 Nejc 25-Jan-04 23:13
Re: No such thing 128 adequatedane 26-Jan-04 23:40
Re: No such thing 111 Alex S 27-Jan-04 14:13
Re: No such thing 110 gene douglas 27-Jan-04 19:01
Re: Questions about Truth 125 Mark Staab 25-Jan-04 23:35
Re: Questions about Truth 115 adequatedane 27-Jan-04 00:15
Re: Questions about Truth 115 Mark Staab 27-Jan-04 02:00
Re: Questions about Truth 111 adequatedane 27-Jan-04 22:40
Re: Questions about Truth 127 banah 30-Jan-04 19:40
Re: Questions about Truth 107 Mark Staab 30-Jan-04 22:22
Re: Questions about Truth 117 banah 31-Jan-04 11:05
Re: Questions about Truth 153 Mark Staab 01-Feb-04 06:33
Re: Questions about Truth 145 banah 01-Feb-04 11:48
Re: Questions about Truth 116 adequatedane 01-Feb-04 16:06
Re: Questions about Truth 107 banah 01-Feb-04 17:25
Re: Questions about Truth 125 adequatedane 02-Feb-04 23:58
Re: Questions about Truth 129 banah 04-Feb-04 11:04
Re: Questions about Truth 117 adequatedane 05-Feb-04 22:26
Re: Questions about Truth 101 banah 07-Feb-04 13:19
Re: Questions about Truth 138 adequatedane 07-Feb-04 14:47
Re: ps 114 banah 01-Feb-04 17:29
Re: Questions about Truth 107 Mark Staab 01-Feb-04 23:42
Re: Questions about Truth 107 banah 04-Feb-04 11:07
Tree of knowledge is the kundalini shakti 135 David L 01-Feb-04 21:33
Re: Tree of knowledge is the kundalini shakti 132 Mark Staab 02-Feb-04 02:09
Re: Tree of knowledge is the kundalini shakti 148 David L 02-Feb-04 23:50
Re: Tree of knowledge is the kundalini shakti 114 Mark Staab 03-Feb-04 05:57
Re: Tree of knowledge is the kundalini shakti 152 David L 03-Feb-04 16:11
Regarding the Old Testament... 107 David L 03-Feb-04 16:19
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 121 banah 04-Feb-04 10:45
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 103 David L 04-Feb-04 13:49
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 119 Mark Staab 05-Feb-04 00:38
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 99 David L 05-Feb-04 01:07
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 131 banah 05-Feb-04 16:48
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 118 David L 05-Feb-04 19:51
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 119 wirelessguru1 06-Feb-04 00:50
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 137 David L 06-Feb-04 01:49
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 128 wirelessguru1 06-Feb-04 02:24
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 101 Anne-Marie 06-Feb-04 07:36
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 115 adequatedane 06-Feb-04 14:09
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 117 David L 06-Feb-04 18:37
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Re: Who speaks the truth... 121 David L 07-Feb-04 06:12
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 118 banah 07-Feb-04 13:05
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 141 David L 07-Feb-04 15:49
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 120 Anne-Marie 06-Feb-04 07:22
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 106 wirelessguru1 07-Feb-04 02:28
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 124 Anne-Marie 07-Feb-04 08:19
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 104 banah 07-Feb-04 13:13
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 119 David L 07-Feb-04 16:17
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 119 Cesar 07-Feb-04 17:22
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 162 David L 07-Feb-04 17:48
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 115 Anne-Marie 07-Feb-04 19:59
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 118 David L 07-Feb-04 22:01
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 123 wirelessguru1 08-Feb-04 19:23
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 122 Anne-Marie 08-Feb-04 20:18
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 428 wirelessguru1 08-Feb-04 21:08
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 114 Cesar 08-Feb-04 18:31
Re: Regarding the Old Testament... 106 David L 08-Feb-04 19:15
Re: Questions about Truth 125 Caduceus 27-Jan-04 01:32
Re: Questions about Truth 130 adequatedane 27-Jan-04 22:49
Re: Questions about Truth 110 Caduceus 29-Jan-04 04:12
Re: Questions about Truth 124 xiang 27-Jan-04 03:16
Re: Questions about Truth 113 Caduceus 27-Jan-04 10:53
Re: Questions about Truth 121 wirelessguru1 27-Jan-04 17:49
Re: Questions about Truth 108 adequatedane 27-Jan-04 22:13
Re: Questions about Truth 119 wirelessguru1 27-Jan-04 22:28
Re: Questions about Truth 113 adequatedane 27-Jan-04 23:16
Re: Questions about Truth 136 wirelessguru1 28-Jan-04 00:04
Re: Questions about Truth 129 adequatedane 28-Jan-04 21:32
Re: Questions about Truth 127 xiang 28-Jan-04 01:50
Re: Questions about Truth 129 adequatedane 28-Jan-04 21:55
Re: Questions about Truth 126 wirelessguru1 27-Jan-04 07:57
Re: Questions about Truth 114 adequatedane 27-Jan-04 23:24
Re: Questions about Truth 106 wirelessguru1 28-Jan-04 00:24
Re: Questions about Truth 111 adequatedane 28-Jan-04 22:22
Re: Questions about Truth 102 wirelessguru1 29-Jan-04 01:03
Re: Questions about Truth 101 adequatedane 29-Jan-04 23:35
Re: Questions about Truth 116 wirelessguru1 29-Jan-04 23:56
Re: Questions about Truth 139 adequatedane 30-Jan-04 02:19
Re: Questions about Truth 118 wirelessguru1 30-Jan-04 03:15
Re: Questions about Truth 112 adequatedane 30-Jan-04 21:32
Re: Questions about Truth 128 wirelessguru1 31-Jan-04 01:04
Re: Questions about Truth 132 adequatedane 31-Jan-04 09:23
Re: Questions about Truth 113 wirelessguru1 31-Jan-04 19:33
Re: Questions about Truth 127 Zurg 30-Jan-04 13:19
Re: Questions about Truth 116 adequatedane 30-Jan-04 22:07
Re: Questions about Truth 122 Dominick Ohrbeck 30-Jan-04 21:39
Re: Questions about Truth 113 adequatedane 31-Jan-04 10:47
Re: Questions about Truth 113 Cesar 08-Feb-04 11:51


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