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Hi Magdalen,

The living water you referr to is Jesus. Jesus used this verse:

John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

to point out to the woman that He was the one spoken of by the prophets:

Jeremiah{2:13} For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

The word used for born(gennao), in Greek (in those verses) has nthing to do with inititation and it is expounded by Peter here:

1Peter1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain way of life received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit to a sincere love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and its flower falleth away:

Here born again is the word:

annagenao and specifically means : to produce again, be born again, born anew

The word for iniatiate is mueo from the word mysterion. The word egkainizo referrs to a ritual of renewal or consecration or initiation. Neither of these is used in any of Jesus teachings.

It is very helpful to read things in their original languages because then we don't lose the sense in the confusion of transliteration.

>>Matthew 3:11 (John the Baptist speaking)
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

This is a baptism unto repentance!! Not an initiation rite. John uses the word baptizo which means to dip into water to clean or wash. Jesus uses the word baptisma which has connotations of of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed ..... :

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? {were: or, are}
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. {freed: Gr. justified}
8 Now if we are dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died to sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth to God.

(baptizo used above)

Here again, Jesus is referring to His crucifixion:
Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I constrained till it shall be accomplished!

and here:

Mark 10:38 But Jesus said to them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

This baptism is the suffering. The filling with the HolySpirit is the annointing with God's Spirit. They are two different things. The second only took place after Jesus ascended to heaven:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

The birth of the Spirit only began after Jesus ascended to heaven .... not while He was on earth.

There are many other verses where Jesus speaks of this, but I used the one in John because you seem to use John as an authority. If you read the whole of John (to get the context right) you will find that it has nothing to do with initiation.


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reincarnation 595 Melusine 19-Jan-04 20:55
Re: reincarnation 190 Zosimos 19-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 150 Melusine 19-Jan-04 21:59
Re: reincarnation 172 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:09
Re: reincarnation 159 Melusine 20-Jan-04 03:59
Re: reincarnation 149 David L 19-Jan-04 23:24
Re: reincarnation 179 Milo 19-Jan-04 23:38
Re: reincarnation 171 David L 20-Jan-04 15:08
Re: reincarnation 136 Milo 21-Jan-04 00:19
Re: reincarnation 172 David L 21-Jan-04 15:10
Re: reincarnation 162 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:23
Re: reincarnation 154 David L 20-Jan-04 15:03
Re: reincarnation 171 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 21:38
Re: reincarnation 129 David L 20-Jan-04 23:22
Re: reincarnation 165 Melusine 20-Jan-04 18:57
Re: reincarnation 155 Melusine 20-Jan-04 04:12
Re: reincarnation 141 David L 20-Jan-04 15:21
Re: reincarnation 150 gene douglas 20-Jan-04 17:13
Re: reincarnation 148 David L 20-Jan-04 18:54
Re: reincarnation 157 gene douglas 20-Jan-04 19:27
Re: reincarnation 179 David L 20-Jan-04 23:35
Re: reincarnation 179 banah 25-Jan-04 20:54
Re: reincarnation 168 David L 26-Jan-04 04:23
Re: reincarnation 164 banah 30-Jan-04 19:54
Water Symbolism 142 Cleopatra 11-Feb-04 13:59
Re: Water Symbolism 157 David L 11-Feb-04 17:32
Re: reincarnation 194 HarryWJYoung 21-Jan-04 10:16
Re: reincarnation 173 gene douglas 21-Jan-04 13:26
Re: reincarnation 157 HarryWJYoung 22-Jan-04 00:21
Re: reincarnation 173 David L 21-Jan-04 15:26
Re: reincarnation 177 HarryWJYoung 21-Jan-04 16:02
Re: reincarnation 166 David L 21-Jan-04 22:13
Re: reincarnation 157 banah 25-Jan-04 19:41
Re: reincarnation 145 SunSword 14-Feb-04 18:29
Re: reincarnation 155 fiascohoho 20-Jan-04 19:22
Re: reincarnation 169 David L 20-Jan-04 23:41
Re: reincarnation 168 Milo 21-Jan-04 00:39
Re: reincarnation 145 David L 21-Jan-04 02:48
Re: reincarnation 159 Milo 21-Jan-04 03:03
Re: reincarnation 167 David L 21-Jan-04 15:41
Re: reincarnation 163 Milo 21-Jan-04 15:58
Re: reincarnation 159 David L 21-Jan-04 22:20
Re: reincarnation 175 Milo 21-Jan-04 22:52
Re: reincarnation 159 David L 22-Jan-04 01:55
Re: reincarnation 146 Milo 22-Jan-04 02:13
Re: reincarnation 120 Nebankh 22-Jan-04 12:44
Re: reincarnation 159 Milo 22-Jan-04 17:00
Re: reincarnation 159 Nebankh 22-Jan-04 17:34
Re: reincarnation 114 Milo 22-Jan-04 19:09
Re: reincarnation 198 David L 22-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 308 Cesar 22-Jan-04 22:49
Re: reincarnation 228 David L 23-Jan-04 02:37
Re: reincarnation 174 Cesar 23-Jan-04 10:41
Re: reincarnation 235 David L 23-Jan-04 02:53
Re: reincarnation 174 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 09:41
Re: reincarnation 151 David L 23-Jan-04 15:36
Re: reincarnation 175 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 16:35
Re: reincarnation 158 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 17:06
Re: reincarnation 166 David L 23-Jan-04 20:28
Re: reincarnation 400 David L 23-Jan-04 20:10
Re: reincarnation 140 Milo 23-Jan-04 20:50
Re: reincarnation 138 David L 23-Jan-04 23:06
Re: reincarnation 137 Milo 23-Jan-04 23:43
Re: reincarnation 152 David L 24-Jan-04 01:04
Re: reincarnation 155 ArmchairObserver 24-Jan-04 07:43
Re: reincarnation 177 Cesar 24-Jan-04 17:31
Re: reincarnation 171 Cesar 24-Jan-04 00:31
Re: reincarnation 152 Cesar 24-Jan-04 00:45
Re: reincarnation 149 Milo 22-Jan-04 23:17
Re: reincarnation 129 Zosimos 22-Jan-04 22:53
Re: reincarnation 176 lobo-hotei 19-Jan-04 23:26
Re: reincarnation 167 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:27
Re: reincarnation 137 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 09:08
Re: reincarnation 194 RichardC 20-Jan-04 13:06
Re: reincarnation 170 SunSword 14-Feb-04 18:13
Master of your own ship 300 Richard Fusniak 14-Feb-04 18:31
Re: reincarnation 164 David L 19-Jan-04 23:16
Re: reincarnation 175 newrisingsun 19-Jan-04 23:37
Re: reincarnation 143 David L 20-Jan-04 01:33
Re: reincarnation 157 newrisingsun 20-Jan-04 17:04
Re: reincarnation 134 Saorsa 20-Jan-04 08:46
Re: reincarnation 262 Aarooga 20-Jan-04 16:35
Re: reincarnation 127 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 08:20
Re: reincarnation 159 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 09:15
Re: reincarnation 141 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 11:58
Re: reincarnation 125 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 15:33
Re: reincarnation 142 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 16:19
Re: reincarnation 188 Aarooga 22-Jan-04 13:13
Re: reincarnation 144 Saorsa 22-Jan-04 14:48
Re: reincarnation 172 Dominick Ohrbeck 20-Jan-04 20:21
Fuzzy 157 Richard Fusniak 20-Jan-04 23:21
Re: Fuzzy 138 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 08:35
Re: Fuzzy 155 Mark Staab 22-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 144 Segestan 21-Jan-04 16:33
Re: reincarnation 125 Earache 21-Jan-04 21:34
Re: reincarnation 165 Trygve Hogebol 22-Jan-04 07:17
Re: reincarnation 142 Earache 24-Jan-04 13:07
Re: reincarnation 144 Richard Fusniak 25-Jan-04 21:17
Re: reincarnation 144 Earache 31-Jan-04 15:42
Re: reincarnation 157 Alex S 26-Jan-04 01:56
Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 148 Richard Fusniak 27-Jan-04 01:26
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 146 Alex S 27-Jan-04 15:11
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 146 Richard Fusniak 29-Jan-04 02:04
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 173 Alex S 29-Jan-04 12:13
Planetary Consciousness 130 Trygve Hogebol 30-Jan-04 05:59
Re: Planetary Consciousness 150 Mark Staab 30-Jan-04 16:18
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 214 timewaster 29-Jan-04 16:25
The value of regression 157 Richard Fusniak 31-Jan-04 23:17
Re: The value of regression 153 timewaster 02-Feb-04 03:22
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 179 David L 01-Feb-04 01:28
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 145 Trygve Hogebol 02-Feb-04 03:48
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 161 Trygve Hogebol 29-Jan-04 02:58
King or pauper 150 Richard Fusniak 29-Jan-04 12:40
Re: King or pauper 149 Saorsa 29-Jan-04 12:51
Re: reincarnation 140 Lee McGiffen 27-Jan-04 10:38

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