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Hi Magdalen,

The living water you referr to is Jesus. Jesus used this verse:

John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

to point out to the woman that He was the one spoken of by the prophets:

Jeremiah{2:13} For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

The word used for born(gennao), in Greek (in those verses) has nthing to do with inititation and it is expounded by Peter here:

1Peter1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain way of life received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit to a sincere love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and its flower falleth away:

Here born again is the word:

annagenao and specifically means : to produce again, be born again, born anew

The word for iniatiate is mueo from the word mysterion. The word egkainizo referrs to a ritual of renewal or consecration or initiation. Neither of these is used in any of Jesus teachings.

It is very helpful to read things in their original languages because then we don't lose the sense in the confusion of transliteration.

>>Matthew 3:11 (John the Baptist speaking)
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

This is a baptism unto repentance!! Not an initiation rite. John uses the word baptizo which means to dip into water to clean or wash. Jesus uses the word baptisma which has connotations of of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed ..... :

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? {were: or, are}
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. {freed: Gr. justified}
8 Now if we are dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died to sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth to God.

(baptizo used above)

Here again, Jesus is referring to His crucifixion:
Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I constrained till it shall be accomplished!

and here:

Mark 10:38 But Jesus said to them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

This baptism is the suffering. The filling with the HolySpirit is the annointing with God's Spirit. They are two different things. The second only took place after Jesus ascended to heaven:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

The birth of the Spirit only began after Jesus ascended to heaven .... not while He was on earth.

There are many other verses where Jesus speaks of this, but I used the one in John because you seem to use John as an authority. If you read the whole of John (to get the context right) you will find that it has nothing to do with initiation.


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reincarnation 398 Melusine 19-Jan-04 20:55
Re: reincarnation 127 Zosimos 19-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 105 Melusine 19-Jan-04 21:59
Re: reincarnation 103 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:09
Re: reincarnation 93 Melusine 20-Jan-04 03:59
Re: reincarnation 93 David L 19-Jan-04 23:24
Re: reincarnation 109 Milo 19-Jan-04 23:38
Re: reincarnation 113 David L 20-Jan-04 15:08
Re: reincarnation 89 Milo 21-Jan-04 00:19
Re: reincarnation 110 David L 21-Jan-04 15:10
Re: reincarnation 108 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:23
Re: reincarnation 103 David L 20-Jan-04 15:03
Re: reincarnation 119 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 21:38
Re: reincarnation 81 David L 20-Jan-04 23:22
Re: reincarnation 96 Melusine 20-Jan-04 18:57
Re: reincarnation 102 Melusine 20-Jan-04 04:12
Re: reincarnation 86 David L 20-Jan-04 15:21
Re: reincarnation 94 gene douglas 20-Jan-04 17:13
Re: reincarnation 93 David L 20-Jan-04 18:54
Re: reincarnation 97 gene douglas 20-Jan-04 19:27
Re: reincarnation 112 David L 20-Jan-04 23:35
Re: reincarnation 112 banah 25-Jan-04 20:54
Re: reincarnation 105 David L 26-Jan-04 04:23
Re: reincarnation 112 banah 30-Jan-04 19:54
Water Symbolism 97 Cleopatra 11-Feb-04 13:59
Re: Water Symbolism 106 David L 11-Feb-04 17:32
Re: reincarnation 142 HarryWJYoung 21-Jan-04 10:16
Re: reincarnation 103 gene douglas 21-Jan-04 13:26
Re: reincarnation 113 HarryWJYoung 22-Jan-04 00:21
Re: reincarnation 116 David L 21-Jan-04 15:26
Re: reincarnation 105 HarryWJYoung 21-Jan-04 16:02
Re: reincarnation 109 David L 21-Jan-04 22:13
Re: reincarnation 109 banah 25-Jan-04 19:41
Re: reincarnation 104 SunSword 14-Feb-04 18:29
Re: reincarnation 93 fiascohoho 20-Jan-04 19:22
Re: reincarnation 108 David L 20-Jan-04 23:41
Re: reincarnation 106 Milo 21-Jan-04 00:39
Re: reincarnation 101 David L 21-Jan-04 02:48
Re: reincarnation 107 Milo 21-Jan-04 03:03
Re: reincarnation 98 David L 21-Jan-04 15:41
Re: reincarnation 107 Milo 21-Jan-04 15:58
Re: reincarnation 103 David L 21-Jan-04 22:20
Re: reincarnation 110 Milo 21-Jan-04 22:52
Re: reincarnation 106 David L 22-Jan-04 01:55
Re: reincarnation 105 Milo 22-Jan-04 02:13
Re: reincarnation 73 Nebankh 22-Jan-04 12:44
Re: reincarnation 98 Milo 22-Jan-04 17:00
Re: reincarnation 93 Nebankh 22-Jan-04 17:34
Re: reincarnation 75 Milo 22-Jan-04 19:09
Re: reincarnation 147 David L 22-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 234 Cesar 22-Jan-04 22:49
Re: reincarnation 163 David L 23-Jan-04 02:37
Re: reincarnation 97 Cesar 23-Jan-04 10:41
Re: reincarnation 172 David L 23-Jan-04 02:53
Re: reincarnation 122 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 09:41
Re: reincarnation 100 David L 23-Jan-04 15:36
Re: reincarnation 132 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 16:35
Re: reincarnation 93 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 17:06
Re: reincarnation 111 David L 23-Jan-04 20:28
Re: reincarnation 337 David L 23-Jan-04 20:10
Re: reincarnation 88 Milo 23-Jan-04 20:50
Re: reincarnation 85 David L 23-Jan-04 23:06
Re: reincarnation 82 Milo 23-Jan-04 23:43
Re: reincarnation 95 David L 24-Jan-04 01:04
Re: reincarnation 101 ArmchairObserver 24-Jan-04 07:43
Re: reincarnation 116 Cesar 24-Jan-04 17:31
Re: reincarnation 108 Cesar 24-Jan-04 00:31
Re: reincarnation 92 Cesar 24-Jan-04 00:45
Re: reincarnation 91 Milo 22-Jan-04 23:17
Re: reincarnation 75 Zosimos 22-Jan-04 22:53
Re: reincarnation 114 lobo-hotei 19-Jan-04 23:26
Re: reincarnation 103 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:27
Re: reincarnation 79 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 09:08
Re: reincarnation 129 RichardC 20-Jan-04 13:06
Re: reincarnation 115 SunSword 14-Feb-04 18:13
Master of your own ship 197 Richard Fusniak 14-Feb-04 18:31
Re: reincarnation 103 David L 19-Jan-04 23:16
Re: reincarnation 100 newrisingsun 19-Jan-04 23:37
Re: reincarnation 92 David L 20-Jan-04 01:33
Re: reincarnation 102 newrisingsun 20-Jan-04 17:04
Re: reincarnation 89 Saorsa 20-Jan-04 08:46
Re: reincarnation 185 Aarooga 20-Jan-04 16:35
Re: reincarnation 76 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 08:20
Re: reincarnation 105 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 09:15
Re: reincarnation 86 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 11:58
Re: reincarnation 82 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 15:33
Re: reincarnation 91 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 16:19
Re: reincarnation 133 Aarooga 22-Jan-04 13:13
Re: reincarnation 87 Saorsa 22-Jan-04 14:48
Re: reincarnation 110 Dominick Ohrbeck 20-Jan-04 20:21
Fuzzy 92 Richard Fusniak 20-Jan-04 23:21
Re: Fuzzy 82 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 08:35
Re: Fuzzy 108 Mark Staab 22-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 101 Segestan 21-Jan-04 16:33
Re: reincarnation 82 Earache 21-Jan-04 21:34
Re: reincarnation 103 Trygve Hogebol 22-Jan-04 07:17
Re: reincarnation 97 Earache 24-Jan-04 13:07
Re: reincarnation 88 Richard Fusniak 25-Jan-04 21:17
Re: reincarnation 85 Earache 31-Jan-04 15:42
Re: reincarnation 100 Alex S 26-Jan-04 01:56
Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 107 Richard Fusniak 27-Jan-04 01:26
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 91 Alex S 27-Jan-04 15:11
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 103 Richard Fusniak 29-Jan-04 02:04
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 108 Alex S 29-Jan-04 12:13
Planetary Consciousness 78 Trygve Hogebol 30-Jan-04 05:59
Re: Planetary Consciousness 98 Mark Staab 30-Jan-04 16:18
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 128 timewaster 29-Jan-04 16:25
The value of regression 113 Richard Fusniak 31-Jan-04 23:17
Re: The value of regression 96 timewaster 02-Feb-04 03:22
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 125 David L 01-Feb-04 01:28
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 89 Trygve Hogebol 02-Feb-04 03:48
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 109 Trygve Hogebol 29-Jan-04 02:58
King or pauper 94 Richard Fusniak 29-Jan-04 12:40
Re: King or pauper 101 Saorsa 29-Jan-04 12:51
Re: reincarnation 86 Lee McGiffen 27-Jan-04 10:38

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