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Hi Magdalen,

The living water you referr to is Jesus. Jesus used this verse:

John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

to point out to the woman that He was the one spoken of by the prophets:

Jeremiah{2:13} For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

The word used for born(gennao), in Greek (in those verses) has nthing to do with inititation and it is expounded by Peter here:

1Peter1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain way of life received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit to a sincere love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and its flower falleth away:

Here born again is the word:

annagenao and specifically means : to produce again, be born again, born anew

The word for iniatiate is mueo from the word mysterion. The word egkainizo referrs to a ritual of renewal or consecration or initiation. Neither of these is used in any of Jesus teachings.

It is very helpful to read things in their original languages because then we don't lose the sense in the confusion of transliteration.

>>Matthew 3:11 (John the Baptist speaking)
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

This is a baptism unto repentance!! Not an initiation rite. John uses the word baptizo which means to dip into water to clean or wash. Jesus uses the word baptisma which has connotations of of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed ..... :

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? {were: or, are}
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. {freed: Gr. justified}
8 Now if we are dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died to sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth to God.

(baptizo used above)

Here again, Jesus is referring to His crucifixion:
Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I constrained till it shall be accomplished!

and here:

Mark 10:38 But Jesus said to them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

This baptism is the suffering. The filling with the HolySpirit is the annointing with God's Spirit. They are two different things. The second only took place after Jesus ascended to heaven:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

The birth of the Spirit only began after Jesus ascended to heaven .... not while He was on earth.

There are many other verses where Jesus speaks of this, but I used the one in John because you seem to use John as an authority. If you read the whole of John (to get the context right) you will find that it has nothing to do with initiation.


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reincarnation 512 Melusine 19-Jan-04 20:55
Re: reincarnation 155 Zosimos 19-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 133 Melusine 19-Jan-04 21:59
Re: reincarnation 140 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:09
Re: reincarnation 119 Melusine 20-Jan-04 03:59
Re: reincarnation 120 David L 19-Jan-04 23:24
Re: reincarnation 144 Milo 19-Jan-04 23:38
Re: reincarnation 150 David L 20-Jan-04 15:08
Re: reincarnation 115 Milo 21-Jan-04 00:19
Re: reincarnation 140 David L 21-Jan-04 15:10
Re: reincarnation 133 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:23
Re: reincarnation 130 David L 20-Jan-04 15:03
Re: reincarnation 147 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 21:38
Re: reincarnation 106 David L 20-Jan-04 23:22
Re: reincarnation 130 Melusine 20-Jan-04 18:57
Re: reincarnation 126 Melusine 20-Jan-04 04:12
Re: reincarnation 110 David L 20-Jan-04 15:21
Re: reincarnation 123 gene douglas 20-Jan-04 17:13
Re: reincarnation 122 David L 20-Jan-04 18:54
Re: reincarnation 124 gene douglas 20-Jan-04 19:27
Re: reincarnation 146 David L 20-Jan-04 23:35
Re: reincarnation 138 banah 25-Jan-04 20:54
Re: reincarnation 132 David L 26-Jan-04 04:23
Re: reincarnation 137 banah 30-Jan-04 19:54
Water Symbolism 124 Cleopatra 11-Feb-04 13:59
Re: Water Symbolism 135 David L 11-Feb-04 17:32
Re: reincarnation 166 HarryWJYoung 21-Jan-04 10:16
Re: reincarnation 132 gene douglas 21-Jan-04 13:26
Re: reincarnation 139 HarryWJYoung 22-Jan-04 00:21
Re: reincarnation 149 David L 21-Jan-04 15:26
Re: reincarnation 149 HarryWJYoung 21-Jan-04 16:02
Re: reincarnation 133 David L 21-Jan-04 22:13
Re: reincarnation 134 banah 25-Jan-04 19:41
Re: reincarnation 128 SunSword 14-Feb-04 18:29
Re: reincarnation 119 fiascohoho 20-Jan-04 19:22
Re: reincarnation 141 David L 20-Jan-04 23:41
Re: reincarnation 131 Milo 21-Jan-04 00:39
Re: reincarnation 125 David L 21-Jan-04 02:48
Re: reincarnation 142 Milo 21-Jan-04 03:03
Re: reincarnation 132 David L 21-Jan-04 15:41
Re: reincarnation 133 Milo 21-Jan-04 15:58
Re: reincarnation 127 David L 21-Jan-04 22:20
Re: reincarnation 138 Milo 21-Jan-04 22:52
Re: reincarnation 130 David L 22-Jan-04 01:55
Re: reincarnation 130 Milo 22-Jan-04 02:13
Re: reincarnation 96 Nebankh 22-Jan-04 12:44
Re: reincarnation 123 Milo 22-Jan-04 17:00
Re: reincarnation 119 Nebankh 22-Jan-04 17:34
Re: reincarnation 98 Milo 22-Jan-04 19:09
Re: reincarnation 175 David L 22-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 268 Cesar 22-Jan-04 22:49
Re: reincarnation 192 David L 23-Jan-04 02:37
Re: reincarnation 140 Cesar 23-Jan-04 10:41
Re: reincarnation 201 David L 23-Jan-04 02:53
Re: reincarnation 146 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 09:41
Re: reincarnation 128 David L 23-Jan-04 15:36
Re: reincarnation 158 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 16:35
Re: reincarnation 126 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 17:06
Re: reincarnation 136 David L 23-Jan-04 20:28
Re: reincarnation 369 David L 23-Jan-04 20:10
Re: reincarnation 111 Milo 23-Jan-04 20:50
Re: reincarnation 109 David L 23-Jan-04 23:06
Re: reincarnation 105 Milo 23-Jan-04 23:43
Re: reincarnation 119 David L 24-Jan-04 01:04
Re: reincarnation 126 ArmchairObserver 24-Jan-04 07:43
Re: reincarnation 143 Cesar 24-Jan-04 17:31
Re: reincarnation 134 Cesar 24-Jan-04 00:31
Re: reincarnation 118 Cesar 24-Jan-04 00:45
Re: reincarnation 115 Milo 22-Jan-04 23:17
Re: reincarnation 99 Zosimos 22-Jan-04 22:53
Re: reincarnation 143 lobo-hotei 19-Jan-04 23:26
Re: reincarnation 138 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:27
Re: reincarnation 104 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 09:08
Re: reincarnation 157 RichardC 20-Jan-04 13:06
Re: reincarnation 140 SunSword 14-Feb-04 18:13
Master of your own ship 250 Richard Fusniak 14-Feb-04 18:31
Re: reincarnation 130 David L 19-Jan-04 23:16
Re: reincarnation 130 newrisingsun 19-Jan-04 23:37
Re: reincarnation 116 David L 20-Jan-04 01:33
Re: reincarnation 127 newrisingsun 20-Jan-04 17:04
Re: reincarnation 113 Saorsa 20-Jan-04 08:46
Re: reincarnation 224 Aarooga 20-Jan-04 16:35
Re: reincarnation 99 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 08:20
Re: reincarnation 129 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 09:15
Re: reincarnation 110 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 11:58
Re: reincarnation 106 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 15:33
Re: reincarnation 119 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 16:19
Re: reincarnation 171 Aarooga 22-Jan-04 13:13
Re: reincarnation 115 Saorsa 22-Jan-04 14:48
Re: reincarnation 139 Dominick Ohrbeck 20-Jan-04 20:21
Fuzzy 126 Richard Fusniak 20-Jan-04 23:21
Re: Fuzzy 107 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 08:35
Re: Fuzzy 131 Mark Staab 22-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 127 Segestan 21-Jan-04 16:33
Re: reincarnation 106 Earache 21-Jan-04 21:34
Re: reincarnation 133 Trygve Hogebol 22-Jan-04 07:17
Re: reincarnation 123 Earache 24-Jan-04 13:07
Re: reincarnation 112 Richard Fusniak 25-Jan-04 21:17
Re: reincarnation 109 Earache 31-Jan-04 15:42
Re: reincarnation 125 Alex S 26-Jan-04 01:56
Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 134 Richard Fusniak 27-Jan-04 01:26
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 115 Alex S 27-Jan-04 15:11
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 128 Richard Fusniak 29-Jan-04 02:04
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 143 Alex S 29-Jan-04 12:13
Planetary Consciousness 103 Trygve Hogebol 30-Jan-04 05:59
Re: Planetary Consciousness 124 Mark Staab 30-Jan-04 16:18
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 179 timewaster 29-Jan-04 16:25
The value of regression 139 Richard Fusniak 31-Jan-04 23:17
Re: The value of regression 121 timewaster 02-Feb-04 03:22
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 148 David L 01-Feb-04 01:28
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 115 Trygve Hogebol 02-Feb-04 03:48
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 134 Trygve Hogebol 29-Jan-04 02:58
King or pauper 120 Richard Fusniak 29-Jan-04 12:40
Re: King or pauper 129 Saorsa 29-Jan-04 12:51
Re: reincarnation 113 Lee McGiffen 27-Jan-04 10:38

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