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Hi Magdalen,

The living water you referr to is Jesus. Jesus used this verse:

John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

to point out to the woman that He was the one spoken of by the prophets:

Jeremiah{2:13} For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

The word used for born(gennao), in Greek (in those verses) has nthing to do with inititation and it is expounded by Peter here:

1Peter1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain way of life received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit to a sincere love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and its flower falleth away:

Here born again is the word:

annagenao and specifically means : to produce again, be born again, born anew

The word for iniatiate is mueo from the word mysterion. The word egkainizo referrs to a ritual of renewal or consecration or initiation. Neither of these is used in any of Jesus teachings.

It is very helpful to read things in their original languages because then we don't lose the sense in the confusion of transliteration.

>>Matthew 3:11 (John the Baptist speaking)
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

This is a baptism unto repentance!! Not an initiation rite. John uses the word baptizo which means to dip into water to clean or wash. Jesus uses the word baptisma which has connotations of of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed ..... :

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? {were: or, are}
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. {freed: Gr. justified}
8 Now if we are dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died to sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth to God.

(baptizo used above)

Here again, Jesus is referring to His crucifixion:
Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I constrained till it shall be accomplished!

and here:

Mark 10:38 But Jesus said to them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

This baptism is the suffering. The filling with the HolySpirit is the annointing with God's Spirit. They are two different things. The second only took place after Jesus ascended to heaven:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

The birth of the Spirit only began after Jesus ascended to heaven .... not while He was on earth.

There are many other verses where Jesus speaks of this, but I used the one in John because you seem to use John as an authority. If you read the whole of John (to get the context right) you will find that it has nothing to do with initiation.


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reincarnation 687 Melusine 19-Jan-04 20:55
Re: reincarnation 224 Zosimos 19-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 184 Melusine 19-Jan-04 21:59
Re: reincarnation 208 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:09
Re: reincarnation 198 Melusine 20-Jan-04 03:59
Re: reincarnation 184 David L 19-Jan-04 23:24
Re: reincarnation 214 Milo 19-Jan-04 23:38
Re: reincarnation 206 David L 20-Jan-04 15:08
Re: reincarnation 169 Milo 21-Jan-04 00:19
Re: reincarnation 204 David L 21-Jan-04 15:10
Re: reincarnation 197 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:23
Re: reincarnation 195 David L 20-Jan-04 15:03
Re: reincarnation 204 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 21:38
Re: reincarnation 158 David L 20-Jan-04 23:22
Re: reincarnation 204 Melusine 20-Jan-04 18:57
Re: reincarnation 194 Melusine 20-Jan-04 04:12
Re: reincarnation 174 David L 20-Jan-04 15:21
Re: reincarnation 184 gene douglas 20-Jan-04 17:13
Re: reincarnation 182 David L 20-Jan-04 18:54
Re: reincarnation 191 gene douglas 20-Jan-04 19:27
Re: reincarnation 211 David L 20-Jan-04 23:35
Re: reincarnation 219 banah 25-Jan-04 20:54
Re: reincarnation 201 David L 26-Jan-04 04:23
Re: reincarnation 197 banah 30-Jan-04 19:54
Water Symbolism 173 Cleopatra 11-Feb-04 13:59
Re: Water Symbolism 192 David L 11-Feb-04 17:32
Re: reincarnation 230 HarryWJYoung 21-Jan-04 10:16
Re: reincarnation 232 gene douglas 21-Jan-04 13:26
Re: reincarnation 190 HarryWJYoung 22-Jan-04 00:21
Re: reincarnation 207 David L 21-Jan-04 15:26
Re: reincarnation 212 HarryWJYoung 21-Jan-04 16:02
Re: reincarnation 200 David L 21-Jan-04 22:13
Re: reincarnation 189 banah 25-Jan-04 19:41
Re: reincarnation 175 SunSword 14-Feb-04 18:29
Re: reincarnation 194 fiascohoho 20-Jan-04 19:22
Re: reincarnation 201 David L 20-Jan-04 23:41
Re: reincarnation 202 Milo 21-Jan-04 00:39
Re: reincarnation 178 David L 21-Jan-04 02:48
Re: reincarnation 192 Milo 21-Jan-04 03:03
Re: reincarnation 202 David L 21-Jan-04 15:41
Re: reincarnation 198 Milo 21-Jan-04 15:58
Re: reincarnation 192 David L 21-Jan-04 22:20
Re: reincarnation 209 Milo 21-Jan-04 22:52
Re: reincarnation 189 David L 22-Jan-04 01:55
Re: reincarnation 178 Milo 22-Jan-04 02:13
Re: reincarnation 151 Nebankh 22-Jan-04 12:44
Re: reincarnation 205 Milo 22-Jan-04 17:00
Re: reincarnation 197 Nebankh 22-Jan-04 17:34
Re: reincarnation 146 Milo 22-Jan-04 19:09
Re: reincarnation 248 David L 22-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 341 Cesar 22-Jan-04 22:49
Re: reincarnation 265 David L 23-Jan-04 02:37
Re: reincarnation 213 Cesar 23-Jan-04 10:41
Re: reincarnation 268 David L 23-Jan-04 02:53
Re: reincarnation 208 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 09:41
Re: reincarnation 188 David L 23-Jan-04 15:36
Re: reincarnation 210 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 16:35
Re: reincarnation 193 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 17:06
Re: reincarnation 200 David L 23-Jan-04 20:28
Re: reincarnation 433 David L 23-Jan-04 20:10
Re: reincarnation 174 Milo 23-Jan-04 20:50
Re: reincarnation 173 David L 23-Jan-04 23:06
Re: reincarnation 172 Milo 23-Jan-04 23:43
Re: reincarnation 187 David L 24-Jan-04 01:04
Re: reincarnation 188 ArmchairObserver 24-Jan-04 07:43
Re: reincarnation 223 Cesar 24-Jan-04 17:31
Re: reincarnation 208 Cesar 24-Jan-04 00:31
Re: reincarnation 184 Cesar 24-Jan-04 00:45
Re: reincarnation 183 Milo 22-Jan-04 23:17
Re: reincarnation 165 Zosimos 22-Jan-04 22:53
Re: reincarnation 210 lobo-hotei 19-Jan-04 23:26
Re: reincarnation 202 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:27
Re: reincarnation 173 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 09:08
Re: reincarnation 231 RichardC 20-Jan-04 13:06
Re: reincarnation 200 SunSword 14-Feb-04 18:13
Master of your own ship 361 Richard Fusniak 14-Feb-04 18:31
Re: reincarnation 201 David L 19-Jan-04 23:16
Re: reincarnation 212 newrisingsun 19-Jan-04 23:37
Re: reincarnation 178 David L 20-Jan-04 01:33
Re: reincarnation 192 newrisingsun 20-Jan-04 17:04
Re: reincarnation 163 Saorsa 20-Jan-04 08:46
Re: reincarnation 298 Aarooga 20-Jan-04 16:35
Re: reincarnation 161 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 08:20
Re: reincarnation 194 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 09:15
Re: reincarnation 179 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 11:58
Re: reincarnation 157 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 15:33
Re: reincarnation 175 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 16:19
Re: reincarnation 222 Aarooga 22-Jan-04 13:13
Re: reincarnation 178 Saorsa 22-Jan-04 14:48
Re: reincarnation 209 Dominick Ohrbeck 20-Jan-04 20:21
Fuzzy 193 Richard Fusniak 20-Jan-04 23:21
Re: Fuzzy 173 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 08:35
Re: Fuzzy 187 Mark Staab 22-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 181 Segestan 21-Jan-04 16:33
Re: reincarnation 161 Earache 21-Jan-04 21:34
Re: reincarnation 195 Trygve Hogebol 22-Jan-04 07:17
Re: reincarnation 176 Earache 24-Jan-04 13:07
Re: reincarnation 176 Richard Fusniak 25-Jan-04 21:17
Re: reincarnation 181 Earache 31-Jan-04 15:42
Re: reincarnation 192 Alex S 26-Jan-04 01:56
Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 180 Richard Fusniak 27-Jan-04 01:26
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 179 Alex S 27-Jan-04 15:11
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 178 Richard Fusniak 29-Jan-04 02:04
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 204 Alex S 29-Jan-04 12:13
Planetary Consciousness 164 Trygve Hogebol 30-Jan-04 05:59
Re: Planetary Consciousness 183 Mark Staab 30-Jan-04 16:18
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 248 timewaster 29-Jan-04 16:25
The value of regression 190 Richard Fusniak 31-Jan-04 23:17
Re: The value of regression 182 timewaster 02-Feb-04 03:22
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 211 David L 01-Feb-04 01:28
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 173 Trygve Hogebol 02-Feb-04 03:48
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 192 Trygve Hogebol 29-Jan-04 02:58
King or pauper 181 Richard Fusniak 29-Jan-04 12:40
Re: King or pauper 177 Saorsa 29-Jan-04 12:51
Re: reincarnation 172 Lee McGiffen 27-Jan-04 10:38

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