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Hi Gene,

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {power: or, the right, or, privilege}
13 Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I find it odd that you quote John who talks of belief in Jesus as the saviour of humankind, when in other posts you claim that belief (Maya) is the problem with man. The verse above clearly states that it is only the will of God that initiates this spiritual rebirth - reincarnation claims that we choose to come back to work out Karma - the two simply do not agree.

John is definately not referring to a fleshly rebirth, but to a spiritual rebirth as the above verse and the one following (in full context) will show:

John3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {again: or, from above}
4 Nicodemus saith to him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born again. {again: or, from above}
8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the sound of it, but canst not tell where it cometh from, and where it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said to him, Art thou a teacher of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say to thee, We speak what we know, and testify what we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him may be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In the following verse from John, we see Jesus deal with a Karmic theory :

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man who was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who sinned, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be revealed in him.
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.



Jesus also tells the story of Lazarus. In it we clearly see that the dead prior to Jesus went to one of two places - Abraham's bosom(paradise) or Hades(hell):

Luke16:19 There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, who was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime didst receive thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they who would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Clearly the dead are not reincarnated ever according to this story told by Jesus. In fact we later discover exactly what paradise is when Jesus tells the thief on the cross that he will join Him in paradise that day. The thief and Jesus descended into paradise (paradise is not the same as heaven!!) and Jesus went and preached to the captives:

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

19 By whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


In John we read that Jesus had not yet ascended even after He rose from the dead :

15 Jesus saith to her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith to him, Sir, if thou hast borne him away, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith to her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith to him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I have not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things to her.

Therefore, this paradise that the thief joined Him in on the day of His crucifixion was not heaven - He didn't ascend on that day, but descended.

Jesus made it clear what happens to spirits at death...... and it certainly isn't reincarnation!

>>Christ gives us numerous references to reincarnation in The Gospel of Thomas:

"where the beginning it, there the end will be...."

..."What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it..."

"...the kingdom is spread out upon the earth, but men do not see it."

My favorite is, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live. For many of us who are first will become last, and they will become one and the same."
>>

Could you quote these in context? There is really nothing to go on here to show that He was teaching reincarnation.....

Blessings
Banah

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Subject Views Written By Posted
reincarnation 585 Melusine 19-Jan-04 20:55
Re: reincarnation 185 Zosimos 19-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 150 Melusine 19-Jan-04 21:59
Re: reincarnation 167 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:09
Re: reincarnation 155 Melusine 20-Jan-04 03:59
Re: reincarnation 145 David L 19-Jan-04 23:24
Re: reincarnation 173 Milo 19-Jan-04 23:38
Re: reincarnation 170 David L 20-Jan-04 15:08
Re: reincarnation 135 Milo 21-Jan-04 00:19
Re: reincarnation 166 David L 21-Jan-04 15:10
Re: reincarnation 158 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:23
Re: reincarnation 154 David L 20-Jan-04 15:03
Re: reincarnation 170 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 21:38
Re: reincarnation 127 David L 20-Jan-04 23:22
Re: reincarnation 160 Melusine 20-Jan-04 18:57
Re: reincarnation 151 Melusine 20-Jan-04 04:12
Re: reincarnation 137 David L 20-Jan-04 15:21
Re: reincarnation 148 gene douglas 20-Jan-04 17:13
Re: reincarnation 146 David L 20-Jan-04 18:54
Re: reincarnation 153 gene douglas 20-Jan-04 19:27
Re: reincarnation 168 David L 20-Jan-04 23:35
Re: reincarnation 172 banah 25-Jan-04 20:54
Re: reincarnation 162 David L 26-Jan-04 04:23
Re: reincarnation 160 banah 30-Jan-04 19:54
Water Symbolism 141 Cleopatra 11-Feb-04 13:59
Re: Water Symbolism 154 David L 11-Feb-04 17:32
Re: reincarnation 191 HarryWJYoung 21-Jan-04 10:16
Re: reincarnation 166 gene douglas 21-Jan-04 13:26
Re: reincarnation 157 HarryWJYoung 22-Jan-04 00:21
Re: reincarnation 171 David L 21-Jan-04 15:26
Re: reincarnation 173 HarryWJYoung 21-Jan-04 16:02
Re: reincarnation 158 David L 21-Jan-04 22:13
Re: reincarnation 154 banah 25-Jan-04 19:41
Re: reincarnation 143 SunSword 14-Feb-04 18:29
Re: reincarnation 148 fiascohoho 20-Jan-04 19:22
Re: reincarnation 165 David L 20-Jan-04 23:41
Re: reincarnation 161 Milo 21-Jan-04 00:39
Re: reincarnation 144 David L 21-Jan-04 02:48
Re: reincarnation 159 Milo 21-Jan-04 03:03
Re: reincarnation 162 David L 21-Jan-04 15:41
Re: reincarnation 157 Milo 21-Jan-04 15:58
Re: reincarnation 154 David L 21-Jan-04 22:20
Re: reincarnation 169 Milo 21-Jan-04 22:52
Re: reincarnation 156 David L 22-Jan-04 01:55
Re: reincarnation 144 Milo 22-Jan-04 02:13
Re: reincarnation 117 Nebankh 22-Jan-04 12:44
Re: reincarnation 153 Milo 22-Jan-04 17:00
Re: reincarnation 153 Nebankh 22-Jan-04 17:34
Re: reincarnation 113 Milo 22-Jan-04 19:09
Re: reincarnation 195 David L 22-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 303 Cesar 22-Jan-04 22:49
Re: reincarnation 223 David L 23-Jan-04 02:37
Re: reincarnation 169 Cesar 23-Jan-04 10:41
Re: reincarnation 227 David L 23-Jan-04 02:53
Re: reincarnation 169 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 09:41
Re: reincarnation 151 David L 23-Jan-04 15:36
Re: reincarnation 174 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 16:35
Re: reincarnation 154 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 17:06
Re: reincarnation 162 David L 23-Jan-04 20:28
Re: reincarnation 396 David L 23-Jan-04 20:10
Re: reincarnation 137 Milo 23-Jan-04 20:50
Re: reincarnation 133 David L 23-Jan-04 23:06
Re: reincarnation 132 Milo 23-Jan-04 23:43
Re: reincarnation 147 David L 24-Jan-04 01:04
Re: reincarnation 152 ArmchairObserver 24-Jan-04 07:43
Re: reincarnation 172 Cesar 24-Jan-04 17:31
Re: reincarnation 165 Cesar 24-Jan-04 00:31
Re: reincarnation 148 Cesar 24-Jan-04 00:45
Re: reincarnation 141 Milo 22-Jan-04 23:17
Re: reincarnation 123 Zosimos 22-Jan-04 22:53
Re: reincarnation 170 lobo-hotei 19-Jan-04 23:26
Re: reincarnation 162 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:27
Re: reincarnation 130 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 09:08
Re: reincarnation 188 RichardC 20-Jan-04 13:06
Re: reincarnation 166 SunSword 14-Feb-04 18:13
Master of your own ship 294 Richard Fusniak 14-Feb-04 18:31
Re: reincarnation 161 David L 19-Jan-04 23:16
Re: reincarnation 165 newrisingsun 19-Jan-04 23:37
Re: reincarnation 138 David L 20-Jan-04 01:33
Re: reincarnation 154 newrisingsun 20-Jan-04 17:04
Re: reincarnation 132 Saorsa 20-Jan-04 08:46
Re: reincarnation 257 Aarooga 20-Jan-04 16:35
Re: reincarnation 123 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 08:20
Re: reincarnation 156 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 09:15
Re: reincarnation 134 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 11:58
Re: reincarnation 125 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 15:33
Re: reincarnation 140 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 16:19
Re: reincarnation 188 Aarooga 22-Jan-04 13:13
Re: reincarnation 138 Saorsa 22-Jan-04 14:48
Re: reincarnation 165 Dominick Ohrbeck 20-Jan-04 20:21
Fuzzy 151 Richard Fusniak 20-Jan-04 23:21
Re: Fuzzy 132 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 08:35
Re: Fuzzy 153 Mark Staab 22-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 144 Segestan 21-Jan-04 16:33
Re: reincarnation 124 Earache 21-Jan-04 21:34
Re: reincarnation 157 Trygve Hogebol 22-Jan-04 07:17
Re: reincarnation 142 Earache 24-Jan-04 13:07
Re: reincarnation 137 Richard Fusniak 25-Jan-04 21:17
Re: reincarnation 140 Earache 31-Jan-04 15:42
Re: reincarnation 151 Alex S 26-Jan-04 01:56
Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 148 Richard Fusniak 27-Jan-04 01:26
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 140 Alex S 27-Jan-04 15:11
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 146 Richard Fusniak 29-Jan-04 02:04
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 169 Alex S 29-Jan-04 12:13
Planetary Consciousness 127 Trygve Hogebol 30-Jan-04 05:59
Re: Planetary Consciousness 145 Mark Staab 30-Jan-04 16:18
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 207 timewaster 29-Jan-04 16:25
The value of regression 156 Richard Fusniak 31-Jan-04 23:17
Re: The value of regression 146 timewaster 02-Feb-04 03:22
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 176 David L 01-Feb-04 01:28
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 140 Trygve Hogebol 02-Feb-04 03:48
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 158 Trygve Hogebol 29-Jan-04 02:58
King or pauper 145 Richard Fusniak 29-Jan-04 12:40
Re: King or pauper 147 Saorsa 29-Jan-04 12:51
Re: reincarnation 135 Lee McGiffen 27-Jan-04 10:38


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