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Hi Gene,

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {power: or, the right, or, privilege}
13 Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I find it odd that you quote John who talks of belief in Jesus as the saviour of humankind, when in other posts you claim that belief (Maya) is the problem with man. The verse above clearly states that it is only the will of God that initiates this spiritual rebirth - reincarnation claims that we choose to come back to work out Karma - the two simply do not agree.

John is definately not referring to a fleshly rebirth, but to a spiritual rebirth as the above verse and the one following (in full context) will show:

John3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {again: or, from above}
4 Nicodemus saith to him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born again. {again: or, from above}
8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the sound of it, but canst not tell where it cometh from, and where it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said to him, Art thou a teacher of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say to thee, We speak what we know, and testify what we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him may be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In the following verse from John, we see Jesus deal with a Karmic theory :

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man who was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who sinned, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be revealed in him.
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Jesus also tells the story of Lazarus. In it we clearly see that the dead prior to Jesus went to one of two places - Abraham's bosom(paradise) or Hades(hell):

Luke16:19 There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, who was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime didst receive thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they who would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Clearly the dead are not reincarnated ever according to this story told by Jesus. In fact we later discover exactly what paradise is when Jesus tells the thief on the cross that he will join Him in paradise that day. The thief and Jesus descended into paradise (paradise is not the same as heaven!!) and Jesus went and preached to the captives:

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

19 By whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

In John we read that Jesus had not yet ascended even after He rose from the dead :

15 Jesus saith to her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith to him, Sir, if thou hast borne him away, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith to her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith to him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I have not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things to her.

Therefore, this paradise that the thief joined Him in on the day of His crucifixion was not heaven - He didn't ascend on that day, but descended.

Jesus made it clear what happens to spirits at death...... and it certainly isn't reincarnation!

>>Christ gives us numerous references to reincarnation in The Gospel of Thomas:

"where the beginning it, there the end will be...."

..."What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it..."

"...the kingdom is spread out upon the earth, but men do not see it."

My favorite is, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live. For many of us who are first will become last, and they will become one and the same."

Could you quote these in context? There is really nothing to go on here to show that He was teaching reincarnation.....


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Subject Views Written By Posted
reincarnation 431 Melusine 19-Jan-04 20:55
Re: reincarnation 139 Zosimos 19-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 117 Melusine 19-Jan-04 21:59
Re: reincarnation 114 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:09
Re: reincarnation 104 Melusine 20-Jan-04 03:59
Re: reincarnation 104 David L 19-Jan-04 23:24
Re: reincarnation 121 Milo 19-Jan-04 23:38
Re: reincarnation 125 David L 20-Jan-04 15:08
Re: reincarnation 101 Milo 21-Jan-04 00:19
Re: reincarnation 126 David L 21-Jan-04 15:10
Re: reincarnation 120 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:23
Re: reincarnation 115 David L 20-Jan-04 15:03
Re: reincarnation 131 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 21:38
Re: reincarnation 90 David L 20-Jan-04 23:22
Re: reincarnation 106 Melusine 20-Jan-04 18:57
Re: reincarnation 113 Melusine 20-Jan-04 04:12
Re: reincarnation 97 David L 20-Jan-04 15:21
Re: reincarnation 108 gene douglas 20-Jan-04 17:13
Re: reincarnation 106 David L 20-Jan-04 18:54
Re: reincarnation 108 gene douglas 20-Jan-04 19:27
Re: reincarnation 122 David L 20-Jan-04 23:35
Re: reincarnation 124 banah 25-Jan-04 20:54
Re: reincarnation 115 David L 26-Jan-04 04:23
Re: reincarnation 122 banah 30-Jan-04 19:54
Water Symbolism 110 Cleopatra 11-Feb-04 13:59
Re: Water Symbolism 115 David L 11-Feb-04 17:32
Re: reincarnation 153 HarryWJYoung 21-Jan-04 10:16
Re: reincarnation 117 gene douglas 21-Jan-04 13:26
Re: reincarnation 127 HarryWJYoung 22-Jan-04 00:21
Re: reincarnation 131 David L 21-Jan-04 15:26
Re: reincarnation 122 HarryWJYoung 21-Jan-04 16:02
Re: reincarnation 120 David L 21-Jan-04 22:13
Re: reincarnation 121 banah 25-Jan-04 19:41
Re: reincarnation 114 SunSword 14-Feb-04 18:29
Re: reincarnation 104 fiascohoho 20-Jan-04 19:22
Re: reincarnation 118 David L 20-Jan-04 23:41
Re: reincarnation 117 Milo 21-Jan-04 00:39
Re: reincarnation 112 David L 21-Jan-04 02:48
Re: reincarnation 118 Milo 21-Jan-04 03:03
Re: reincarnation 110 David L 21-Jan-04 15:41
Re: reincarnation 118 Milo 21-Jan-04 15:58
Re: reincarnation 113 David L 21-Jan-04 22:20
Re: reincarnation 122 Milo 21-Jan-04 22:52
Re: reincarnation 115 David L 22-Jan-04 01:55
Re: reincarnation 116 Milo 22-Jan-04 02:13
Re: reincarnation 84 Nebankh 22-Jan-04 12:44
Re: reincarnation 108 Milo 22-Jan-04 17:00
Re: reincarnation 104 Nebankh 22-Jan-04 17:34
Re: reincarnation 85 Milo 22-Jan-04 19:09
Re: reincarnation 157 David L 22-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 245 Cesar 22-Jan-04 22:49
Re: reincarnation 174 David L 23-Jan-04 02:37
Re: reincarnation 108 Cesar 23-Jan-04 10:41
Re: reincarnation 183 David L 23-Jan-04 02:53
Re: reincarnation 132 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 09:41
Re: reincarnation 112 David L 23-Jan-04 15:36
Re: reincarnation 142 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 16:35
Re: reincarnation 104 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 17:06
Re: reincarnation 120 David L 23-Jan-04 20:28
Re: reincarnation 356 David L 23-Jan-04 20:10
Re: reincarnation 98 Milo 23-Jan-04 20:50
Re: reincarnation 95 David L 23-Jan-04 23:06
Re: reincarnation 92 Milo 23-Jan-04 23:43
Re: reincarnation 107 David L 24-Jan-04 01:04
Re: reincarnation 113 ArmchairObserver 24-Jan-04 07:43
Re: reincarnation 128 Cesar 24-Jan-04 17:31
Re: reincarnation 119 Cesar 24-Jan-04 00:31
Re: reincarnation 103 Cesar 24-Jan-04 00:45
Re: reincarnation 102 Milo 22-Jan-04 23:17
Re: reincarnation 86 Zosimos 22-Jan-04 22:53
Re: reincarnation 127 lobo-hotei 19-Jan-04 23:26
Re: reincarnation 115 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:27
Re: reincarnation 91 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 09:08
Re: reincarnation 144 RichardC 20-Jan-04 13:06
Re: reincarnation 124 SunSword 14-Feb-04 18:13
Master of your own ship 216 Richard Fusniak 14-Feb-04 18:31
Re: reincarnation 113 David L 19-Jan-04 23:16
Re: reincarnation 113 newrisingsun 19-Jan-04 23:37
Re: reincarnation 103 David L 20-Jan-04 01:33
Re: reincarnation 113 newrisingsun 20-Jan-04 17:04
Re: reincarnation 100 Saorsa 20-Jan-04 08:46
Re: reincarnation 199 Aarooga 20-Jan-04 16:35
Re: reincarnation 86 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 08:20
Re: reincarnation 116 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 09:15
Re: reincarnation 97 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 11:58
Re: reincarnation 94 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 15:33
Re: reincarnation 106 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 16:19
Re: reincarnation 147 Aarooga 22-Jan-04 13:13
Re: reincarnation 98 Saorsa 22-Jan-04 14:48
Re: reincarnation 121 Dominick Ohrbeck 20-Jan-04 20:21
Fuzzy 106 Richard Fusniak 20-Jan-04 23:21
Re: Fuzzy 94 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 08:35
Re: Fuzzy 119 Mark Staab 22-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 113 Segestan 21-Jan-04 16:33
Re: reincarnation 93 Earache 21-Jan-04 21:34
Re: reincarnation 114 Trygve Hogebol 22-Jan-04 07:17
Re: reincarnation 110 Earache 24-Jan-04 13:07
Re: reincarnation 97 Richard Fusniak 25-Jan-04 21:17
Re: reincarnation 95 Earache 31-Jan-04 15:42
Re: reincarnation 109 Alex S 26-Jan-04 01:56
Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 117 Richard Fusniak 27-Jan-04 01:26
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 100 Alex S 27-Jan-04 15:11
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 113 Richard Fusniak 29-Jan-04 02:04
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 118 Alex S 29-Jan-04 12:13
Planetary Consciousness 88 Trygve Hogebol 30-Jan-04 05:59
Re: Planetary Consciousness 107 Mark Staab 30-Jan-04 16:18
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 137 timewaster 29-Jan-04 16:25
The value of regression 124 Richard Fusniak 31-Jan-04 23:17
Re: The value of regression 107 timewaster 02-Feb-04 03:22
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 134 David L 01-Feb-04 01:28
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 101 Trygve Hogebol 02-Feb-04 03:48
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 118 Trygve Hogebol 29-Jan-04 02:58
King or pauper 103 Richard Fusniak 29-Jan-04 12:40
Re: King or pauper 110 Saorsa 29-Jan-04 12:51
Re: reincarnation 95 Lee McGiffen 27-Jan-04 10:38

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