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Hi Malcolm.

I hadn't realized that you had replied. It's really quite hard for me to follow along with a cell phone.

Anyhoo.... grangram Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> “The better question may be to question the
> nature of reality itself.”
> Nice to hear from you, I couldn't have said it
> better myself Mark. The fact that Science has to
> respond to this is great but when the “Fine
> Tuning' problem arose Science had a rethink and
> then they came up with multiple universes, they
> just made them up really. But in the end they may
> have to face up to uncomfortable solutions,
> Dawkins couldn't refute the simulation concept, I
> wonder whether he has ever read Chuang Tsu'
> 'dream' allegories as the Chinese master was
> talking of the same concept, dream, illusion,
> simulation and of course Socrates' Cave allegory
> comes to mind aswell.
> Dr J b Taylor said “What are we?”...... “We
> are the life force power of the universe” she
> could say this because she experienced it, she
> knew herself. You, Ray, myself and others have had
> similar experiences not because of an Brain
> Haemorrhage but a union brought about by our
> personal growth and Grace. "

Absolutely.

> We follow what seem different paths but we all
> seek the same union, although we may use different
> methods and names.

Say it again, brother! Naveen spoke eloquently on the same point not too long ago.
>
> I read a book by Dr Peter Fenwick some years ago,
> about 300 reported NDEs, he has noticed the
> different reports of these experiences for
> instance, Catholics generally saw the Virgin. I
> shan't say much about it, but leave a link to a
> interview where he covers most of his findings.
> See what you think.
> [www.youtube.com]
> 'What really happens when you die'. Dr Fenwick.
> 59.28 mins

I will look at the video, but here is another thing that Mr. Dawkins MUST agree to: that it is virtual certainty, based on the fact of our existence, that there is intelligent life in the universe and probably an abundance of it, intelligence that is much greater than ours.

I say this because we arrived in the final minute of Carl Sagan's Cosmic Calendar, on the equivalent of 11:59 pm on December 31st. If the Milky Way has 100 billion stars, with 10 planets per star, then we are already looking at a trillion planets in our local galaxy alone. At this point is already the height of geocentric arrogance to say that we are likely the only planet with intelligence life. But at 1 in a trillion chance odds, we should already be strongly doubting that we are alone.

Looking wider, "Hubble reveals an estimated 100 billion galaxies in the universe or so, but this number is likely to increase to about 200 billion as telescope technology in space improves." Extrapolating further, we are looking at 1 trillion times 200 billion planets. Nobody needs the Drake equation to see what this infers, and I would bet that Mr. Dawkins would strongly agree: Even when we factor God out of the equation, it remains a virtual certainty that we are not alone, if we wish to reduce the fact of our species' existence to random happenstance.

If one can imagine a 2 followed by 23 zeros, or 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, that's what we're dealing with. These kinds of numbers are VASTLY beyond what a criminal court would require in a DNA match to establish the "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold. And so, if we defer to such numbers there it really makes no sense to not apply the same style of reasoning elsewhere. To apply a double standard is an example of cognitive dissonance.

On to the futility of us trying to suggest what such ETs are capable of:

A species who was born 3 Cosmic Calendar months before us will be about 3-4 billion years older than us. So would their learning curve, if they managed to survive. If there's one thing that most people can agree on already, a mere 400 years into the Scientific Revolution, it is that we don't know what we are capable of AND that we expect to be continued to blown away by emerging technologies.

It is breathtaking to think of how much more advanced we Earthlings will be in 10,000 years, let alone 3.5 billion years. More to the point, our very extreme position on Sagan's Cosmic Calendar also very strong infers that the universes other intelligent species are MUCH older and more advanced that we are, for all of our 21st century science.
And so, the idea of simulated "universes" should at least be considered a possibility, if only because some ETs may have eventually acquired such technology.

Personally, I don't agree with the general idea, although I will certainly grant that it is certainly possible. For me, Malcolm, it's just that our known reality in many ways does reflect a computer program, when we drill down to its basics, rather than what greets the eye only (which is akin to only considering the surface of a web page, and NOT the underlying source code.)

The artist formally known as Poster Boy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05-Sep-19 20:40 by Poster Boy.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 1642 drrayeye 29-Aug-19 19:46
Is there such a thing as Spiritual Blindness? 153 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 13:28
Re: Is there such a thing as Spiritual Blindness? 143 PB Bytes 30-Aug-19 17:07
Re: Is there such a thing as Spiritual Blindness? 159 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 17:29
Re: Is there such a thing as Spiritual Blindness? 139 Eddie Larry 30-Aug-19 19:12
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 161 Susan Doris 30-Aug-19 14:53
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 153 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 15:37
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 144 Eddie Larry 30-Aug-19 20:30
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 143 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 22:04
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 140 Eddie Larry 30-Aug-19 23:10
Empirical science and spiritual experiences 129 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 23:59
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 134 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 00:09
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 147 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 00:40
Spirituality is one's whole inner and outer character; there is no division.... 145 Itatw70s 31-Aug-19 01:32
The Christian alternative: asceticism 132 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 01:49
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 153 Itatw70s 31-Aug-19 01:55
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 146 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 02:14
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 160 Itatw70s 31-Aug-19 20:53
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 135 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 23:08
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 128 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 18:08
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 132 drrayeye 02-Sep-19 19:03
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 129 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 20:39
This thread is about science 125 drrayeye 02-Sep-19 21:08
Re: This thread is about science 126 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 21:31
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 143 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 02:01
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 139 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 01:45
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 161 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 02:18
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 124 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 02:29
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 138 Jrevans 31-Aug-19 01:02
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 136 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 01:44
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 156 jazzmumbles 31-Aug-19 01:25
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 143 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 01:37
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 145 jazzmumbles 31-Aug-19 02:42
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 132 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 02:58
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 127 Itatw70s 01-Sep-19 20:31
NOPE 132 drrayeye 01-Sep-19 22:47
Re: NOPE 135 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 20:59
Science is not a threat 144 drrayeye 02-Sep-19 21:11
Re: Science is not a threat 138 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 21:37
Re: Science is not a threat 143 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 03:00
Re: Science is not a threat 124 Itatw70s 03-Sep-19 06:04
Re: Science is not a threat 140 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 07:31
Re: Science is not a threat 124 Susan Doris 03-Sep-19 07:47
Of course 131 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 08:05
Re: Of course 136 Susan Doris 03-Sep-19 10:14
Re: Of course 130 Itatw70s 03-Sep-19 11:40
Just Passing Through 156 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 12:54
"There is nowhere where there is not God".... 132 Itatw70s 03-Sep-19 22:17
Agreed 138 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 23:58
philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 138 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 11:54
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 141 Susan Doris 31-Aug-19 15:09
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 137 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 15:56
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 129 Susan Doris 31-Aug-19 17:51
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 143 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 18:49
Thought experimentation is the key.... 140 Itatw70s 01-Sep-19 21:03
From Descartes to the present 143 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 18:20
Re: From Descartes to the present 142 Susan Doris 01-Sep-19 05:12
You can lead a horse to water . . . 145 drrayeye 01-Sep-19 06:20
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 156 jazzmumbles 02-Sep-19 00:18
Nah 141 drrayeye 02-Sep-19 06:48
No not an extra you are the star. 169 grangram 03-Sep-19 07:39
Sorry 160 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 08:44
I don't think Dawkins likes the theory? 136 grangram 04-Sep-19 08:02
Re: I don't think Dawkins likes the theory? 150 drrayeye 04-Sep-19 13:15
Re: I don't think Dawkins likes the theory? 138 PB Bytes 04-Sep-19 19:44
The greatest cult of all... 133 Eddie Larry 04-Sep-19 21:08
Re: The greatest cult of all... 142 Itatw70s 04-Sep-19 22:55
Re: The greatest cult of all... 126 Eddie Larry 04-Sep-19 23:01
Re: The greatest cult of all... 142 Itatw70s 04-Sep-19 23:05
Re: The greatest cult of all... 126 Eddie Larry 05-Sep-19 02:16
Human imagination 124 grangram 05-Sep-19 10:00
Re: Human imagination 125 Eddie Larry 05-Sep-19 19:34
The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 153 grangram 05-Sep-19 08:29
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 144 Itatw70s 05-Sep-19 11:41
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 141 grangram 05-Sep-19 11:57
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 130 Susan Doris 05-Sep-19 12:18
Lazy Lazy Lazy 141 drrayeye 05-Sep-19 16:12
Re: Lazy Lazy Lazy 132 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 05:01
The links are there 131 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 07:06
Re: The links are there 133 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 12:21
Re: The links are there 133 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 12:51
Re: The links are there 129 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 16:07
Further thoughts 113 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 17:56
Re: The links are there 122 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 12:40
Re: The links are there 119 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 16:26
Re: The links are there 123 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 18:12
One of the things I've learned 115 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 19:19
Re: One of the things I've learned 127 PB Bytes 06-Sep-19 19:47
Re: One of the things I've learned 128 Susan Doris 07-Sep-19 05:26
Dr. Sam 123 drrayeye 07-Sep-19 06:35
Re: Dr. Sam 125 Susan Doris 07-Sep-19 07:01
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 132 PB Bytes 05-Sep-19 20:15
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 137 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 05:05
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 135 PB Bytes 05-Sep-19 20:13
Strongly disagree 150 drrayeye 05-Sep-19 21:09
Re: Strongly disagree 135 PB Bytes 05-Sep-19 21:28
The visual field (brain) and the visual world (mind) 160 drrayeye 05-Sep-19 20:28
Re: The visual field (brain) and the visual world (mind) 132 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 05:12
I did 138 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 07:20
Thanks 143 grangram 06-Sep-19 08:14
Re: No not an extra you are the star. 159 jazzmumbles 07-Sep-19 22:14
Re: No not an extra you are the star. 132 grangram 11-Sep-19 20:26
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 123 grangram 11-Sep-19 20:12
medical science is an oxymoron 146 drrayeye 11-Sep-19 21:41
Thank God for plumbers and electricians 134 grangram 13-Sep-19 07:38
Re: Thank God for plumbers and electricians 152 Susan Doris 13-Sep-19 10:30
Re: Thank God for plumbers and electricians 123 PB Bytes 13-Sep-19 16:09
Re: Thank God for plumbers and electricians 126 Eddie Larry 13-Sep-19 17:48
medicine vs. science 119 drrayeye 13-Sep-19 17:52
Re: medicine vs. science 129 PB Bytes 13-Sep-19 18:19
A critical distinction 125 drrayeye 13-Sep-19 19:50
Save a prayer for the scientist 133 drrayeye 13-Sep-19 11:03
James 2:14 127 grangram 14-Sep-19 11:34
Re: James 2:14 131 drrayeye 14-Sep-19 15:24
Pence's health care 122 grangram 15-Sep-19 22:18
Second Timothy 2: 15 216 drrayeye 16-Sep-19 00:32
Re: James 2:14 129 Glass Jigsaw 15-Sep-19 20:26
It's always different 106 drrayeye 16-Sep-19 00:17


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