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Hi Malcolm.

I hadn't realized that you had replied. It's really quite hard for me to follow along with a cell phone.

Anyhoo.... grangram Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> “The better question may be to question the
> nature of reality itself.”
> Nice to hear from you, I couldn't have said it
> better myself Mark. The fact that Science has to
> respond to this is great but when the “Fine
> Tuning' problem arose Science had a rethink and
> then they came up with multiple universes, they
> just made them up really. But in the end they may
> have to face up to uncomfortable solutions,
> Dawkins couldn't refute the simulation concept, I
> wonder whether he has ever read Chuang Tsu'
> 'dream' allegories as the Chinese master was
> talking of the same concept, dream, illusion,
> simulation and of course Socrates' Cave allegory
> comes to mind aswell.
> Dr J b Taylor said “What are we?”...... “We
> are the life force power of the universe” she
> could say this because she experienced it, she
> knew herself. You, Ray, myself and others have had
> similar experiences not because of an Brain
> Haemorrhage but a union brought about by our
> personal growth and Grace. "

Absolutely.

> We follow what seem different paths but we all
> seek the same union, although we may use different
> methods and names.

Say it again, brother! Naveen spoke eloquently on the same point not too long ago.
>
> I read a book by Dr Peter Fenwick some years ago,
> about 300 reported NDEs, he has noticed the
> different reports of these experiences for
> instance, Catholics generally saw the Virgin. I
> shan't say much about it, but leave a link to a
> interview where he covers most of his findings.
> See what you think.
> [www.youtube.com]
> 'What really happens when you die'. Dr Fenwick.
> 59.28 mins

I will look at the video, but here is another thing that Mr. Dawkins MUST agree to: that it is virtual certainty, based on the fact of our existence, that there is intelligent life in the universe and probably an abundance of it, intelligence that is much greater than ours.

I say this because we arrived in the final minute of Carl Sagan's Cosmic Calendar, on the equivalent of 11:59 pm on December 31st. If the Milky Way has 100 billion stars, with 10 planets per star, then we are already looking at a trillion planets in our local galaxy alone. At this point is already the height of geocentric arrogance to say that we are likely the only planet with intelligence life. But at 1 in a trillion chance odds, we should already be strongly doubting that we are alone.

Looking wider, "Hubble reveals an estimated 100 billion galaxies in the universe or so, but this number is likely to increase to about 200 billion as telescope technology in space improves." Extrapolating further, we are looking at 1 trillion times 200 billion planets. Nobody needs the Drake equation to see what this infers, and I would bet that Mr. Dawkins would strongly agree: Even when we factor God out of the equation, it remains a virtual certainty that we are not alone, if we wish to reduce the fact of our species' existence to random happenstance.

If one can imagine a 2 followed by 23 zeros, or 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, that's what we're dealing with. These kinds of numbers are VASTLY beyond what a criminal court would require in a DNA match to establish the "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold. And so, if we defer to such numbers there it really makes no sense to not apply the same style of reasoning elsewhere. To apply a double standard is an example of cognitive dissonance.

On to the futility of us trying to suggest what such ETs are capable of:

A species who was born 3 Cosmic Calendar months before us will be about 3-4 billion years older than us. So would their learning curve, if they managed to survive. If there's one thing that most people can agree on already, a mere 400 years into the Scientific Revolution, it is that we don't know what we are capable of AND that we expect to be continued to blown away by emerging technologies.

It is breathtaking to think of how much more advanced we Earthlings will be in 10,000 years, let alone 3.5 billion years. More to the point, our very extreme position on Sagan's Cosmic Calendar also very strong infers that the universes other intelligent species are MUCH older and more advanced that we are, for all of our 21st century science.
And so, the idea of simulated "universes" should at least be considered a possibility, if only because some ETs may have eventually acquired such technology.

Personally, I don't agree with the general idea, although I will certainly grant that it is certainly possible. For me, Malcolm, it's just that our known reality in many ways does reflect a computer program, when we drill down to its basics, rather than what greets the eye only (which is akin to only considering the surface of a web page, and NOT the underlying source code.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05-Sep-19 20:40 by Poster Boy.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 1581 drrayeye 29-Aug-19 19:46
Is there such a thing as Spiritual Blindness? 130 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 13:28
Re: Is there such a thing as Spiritual Blindness? 122 Poster Boy 30-Aug-19 17:07
Re: Is there such a thing as Spiritual Blindness? 138 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 17:29
Re: Is there such a thing as Spiritual Blindness? 119 Eddie Larry 30-Aug-19 19:12
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 141 Susan Doris 30-Aug-19 14:53
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 134 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 15:37
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 124 Eddie Larry 30-Aug-19 20:30
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 123 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 22:04
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 119 Eddie Larry 30-Aug-19 23:10
Empirical science and spiritual experiences 107 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 23:59
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 114 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 00:09
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 129 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 00:40
Spirituality is one's whole inner and outer character; there is no division.... 125 Itatw70s 31-Aug-19 01:32
The Christian alternative: asceticism 109 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 01:49
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 131 Itatw70s 31-Aug-19 01:55
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 125 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 02:14
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 142 Itatw70s 31-Aug-19 20:53
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 114 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 23:08
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 106 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 18:08
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 112 drrayeye 02-Sep-19 19:03
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 105 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 20:39
This thread is about science 102 drrayeye 02-Sep-19 21:08
Re: This thread is about science 105 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 21:31
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 123 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 02:01
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 119 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 01:45
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 138 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 02:18
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 104 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 02:29
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 117 Jrevans 31-Aug-19 01:02
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 115 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 01:44
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 135 jazzmumbles 31-Aug-19 01:25
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 120 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 01:37
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 124 jazzmumbles 31-Aug-19 02:42
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 112 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 02:58
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 109 Itatw70s 01-Sep-19 20:31
NOPE 113 drrayeye 01-Sep-19 22:47
Re: NOPE 113 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 20:59
Science is not a threat 123 drrayeye 02-Sep-19 21:11
Re: Science is not a threat 117 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 21:37
Re: Science is not a threat 124 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 03:00
Re: Science is not a threat 106 Itatw70s 03-Sep-19 06:04
Re: Science is not a threat 121 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 07:31
Re: Science is not a threat 104 Susan Doris 03-Sep-19 07:47
Of course 113 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 08:05
Re: Of course 107 Susan Doris 03-Sep-19 10:14
Re: Of course 110 Itatw70s 03-Sep-19 11:40
Just Passing Through 137 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 12:54
"There is nowhere where there is not God".... 112 Itatw70s 03-Sep-19 22:17
Agreed 118 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 23:58
philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 117 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 11:54
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 123 Susan Doris 31-Aug-19 15:09
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 113 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 15:56
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 110 Susan Doris 31-Aug-19 17:51
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 122 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 18:49
Thought experimentation is the key.... 120 Itatw70s 01-Sep-19 21:03
From Descartes to the present 123 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 18:20
Re: From Descartes to the present 123 Susan Doris 01-Sep-19 05:12
You can lead a horse to water . . . 121 drrayeye 01-Sep-19 06:20
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 136 jazzmumbles 02-Sep-19 00:18
Nah 122 drrayeye 02-Sep-19 06:48
No not an extra you are the star. 151 grangram 03-Sep-19 07:39
Sorry 140 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 08:44
I don't think Dawkins likes the theory? 116 grangram 04-Sep-19 08:02
Re: I don't think Dawkins likes the theory? 128 drrayeye 04-Sep-19 13:15
Re: I don't think Dawkins likes the theory? 118 Poster Boy 04-Sep-19 19:44
The greatest cult of all... 111 Eddie Larry 04-Sep-19 21:08
Re: The greatest cult of all... 122 Itatw70s 04-Sep-19 22:55
Re: The greatest cult of all... 105 Eddie Larry 04-Sep-19 23:01
Re: The greatest cult of all... 123 Itatw70s 04-Sep-19 23:05
Re: The greatest cult of all... 106 Eddie Larry 05-Sep-19 02:16
Human imagination 103 grangram 05-Sep-19 10:00
Re: Human imagination 107 Eddie Larry 05-Sep-19 19:34
The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 134 grangram 05-Sep-19 08:29
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 124 Itatw70s 05-Sep-19 11:41
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 122 grangram 05-Sep-19 11:57
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 111 Susan Doris 05-Sep-19 12:18
Lazy Lazy Lazy 121 drrayeye 05-Sep-19 16:12
Re: Lazy Lazy Lazy 112 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 05:01
The links are there 110 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 07:06
Re: The links are there 114 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 12:21
Re: The links are there 111 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 12:51
Re: The links are there 109 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 16:07
Further thoughts 94 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 17:56
Re: The links are there 103 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 12:40
Re: The links are there 101 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 16:26
Re: The links are there 102 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 18:12
One of the things I've learned 96 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 19:19
Re: One of the things I've learned 105 Poster Boy 06-Sep-19 19:47
Re: One of the things I've learned 109 Susan Doris 07-Sep-19 05:26
Dr. Sam 103 drrayeye 07-Sep-19 06:35
Re: Dr. Sam 104 Susan Doris 07-Sep-19 07:01
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 111 Poster Boy 05-Sep-19 20:15
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 117 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 05:05
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 116 Poster Boy 05-Sep-19 20:13
Strongly disagree 129 drrayeye 05-Sep-19 21:09
Re: Strongly disagree 114 Poster Boy 05-Sep-19 21:28
The visual field (brain) and the visual world (mind) 140 drrayeye 05-Sep-19 20:28
Re: The visual field (brain) and the visual world (mind) 112 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 05:12
I did 116 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 07:20
Thanks 124 grangram 06-Sep-19 08:14
Re: No not an extra you are the star. 135 jazzmumbles 07-Sep-19 22:14
Re: No not an extra you are the star. 113 grangram 11-Sep-19 20:26
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 103 grangram 11-Sep-19 20:12
medical science is an oxymoron 121 drrayeye 11-Sep-19 21:41
Thank God for plumbers and electricians 115 grangram 13-Sep-19 07:38
Re: Thank God for plumbers and electricians 134 Susan Doris 13-Sep-19 10:30
Re: Thank God for plumbers and electricians 101 Poster Boy 13-Sep-19 16:09
Re: Thank God for plumbers and electricians 102 Eddie Larry 13-Sep-19 17:48
medicine vs. science 100 drrayeye 13-Sep-19 17:52
Re: medicine vs. science 110 Poster Boy 13-Sep-19 18:19
A critical distinction 105 drrayeye 13-Sep-19 19:50
Save a prayer for the scientist 113 drrayeye 13-Sep-19 11:03
James 2:14 107 grangram 14-Sep-19 11:34
Re: James 2:14 112 drrayeye 14-Sep-19 15:24
Pence's health care 103 grangram 15-Sep-19 22:18
Second Timothy 2: 15 180 drrayeye 16-Sep-19 00:32
Re: James 2:14 103 Glass Jigsaw 15-Sep-19 20:26
It's always different 85 drrayeye 16-Sep-19 00:17


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