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Hi Malcolm

I see room for two kinds of simulations, both of which Dawkins must acknowledge as possible.

The key phrase he makes, near the end of his answer, is that if a teenage boy could design a simulation, that he would have to have it operated normally according to rules that mimic physical laws.

Now, let's think about that.

Suppose our teen creates such a game, whereby unwitting players enter the Game without knowing it is a virtual reality. As part of his agenda, he sets things up so that mountains are "virtually" impossible to move. In time, the players learn that they can move mountains within the rules, by building trucks and cranes that meet the Game's requirements. Much labour and planning involved. And where manual labour is required the Game can be tweaked so that the player feels ever-increasing degrees of effort as he tries to take on more work, until he reaches a limit of course, as we all do within reality.

And so, after many decades where much learning is involved: learning that includes The Game being the only reality. That we all cease to exist after we leave the Game. That it takes this much science and that much physics to be able to take on the task of moving a mountain---

As one stares at the mountain from within the Game, knowing all of these things as he does, the mountain rises up in the air and appears to fly across the sky until settles some distance off to the left.

Our player is at a complete loss to explain what happened. What has happened, is a simple select-and-drag computer move, where the 'mountain' is simply re-positioned, according to higher laws that have to do with computer technology, rather than any of the rules that apply to within the Game.

Other players - some, not all - will surely say that such a think never happened because mountains don't fly. And here's the analogy. The world's spiritual tradition speak constantly of miracles. Seen more prosaically, perhaps these miracles are simply manifestations of a higher physics. Of course, it is easy to dismiss all of those testimonials as fiction, since they are relegated to an obscure past. But such denial is not so easy to apply to similar present-day events.

One such event was Fatima, which Susan recently said she supports being buried. But she failed to provide a shed of evidence that shows why this event is likely to be normal. This is typical of the denialists. At the end of the day, when evidence doesn't support them, they must deny, deny and deny. Better to ignore the evidence, as Susan recently advocated. At least that way one doesn't have to confront the embarrassment that so often accompanies carte blanche denial.

There's a lot to like about simulation theory, but it may be that the 'real' universe itself is based entirely on information, just like computers are. Staying with my one example just a little longer: rather than question whether or not tens of thousands of people actually saw the sun dance, or a ufo, etc, on an appointed day, the better question may be to question the nature of reality itself.

In recent years we've become too hooked on the myth of the physical universe being all that there is. We act this way while conceding at the same time - unless we don't mind sounding ignorant - that the physical world is 99.9999999999999 percent empty space, that thought shapes matter at the quantum level, and various other things that speak to why what greets our senses is NOT to be taken for what it appears to be.

Think about that. Simulation theory, by it's very nature, presupposes two sets of laws of physics (as a minimum): what causes the Game to function normally, and what causes the normal process to be interrupted.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 1462 drrayeye 29-Aug-19 19:46
Is there such a thing as Spiritual Blindness? 98 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 13:28
Re: Is there such a thing as Spiritual Blindness? 92 Poster Boy 30-Aug-19 17:07
Re: Is there such a thing as Spiritual Blindness? 106 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 17:29
Re: Is there such a thing as Spiritual Blindness? 87 Eddie Larry 30-Aug-19 19:12
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 108 Susan Doris 30-Aug-19 14:53
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 103 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 15:37
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 91 Eddie Larry 30-Aug-19 20:30
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 87 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 22:04
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 87 Eddie Larry 30-Aug-19 23:10
Empirical science and spiritual experiences 79 drrayeye 30-Aug-19 23:59
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 85 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 00:09
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 98 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 00:40
Spirituality is one's whole inner and outer character; there is no division.... 91 Itatw70s 31-Aug-19 01:32
The Christian alternative: asceticism 84 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 01:49
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 96 Itatw70s 31-Aug-19 01:55
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 91 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 02:14
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 108 Itatw70s 31-Aug-19 20:53
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 83 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 23:08
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 77 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 18:08
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 80 drrayeye 02-Sep-19 19:03
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 73 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 20:39
This thread is about science 72 drrayeye 02-Sep-19 21:08
Re: This thread is about science 76 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 21:31
Re: The Christian alternative: asceticism 93 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 02:01
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 89 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 01:45
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 102 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 02:18
Re: Empirical science and spiritual experiences 75 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 02:29
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 83 Jrevans 31-Aug-19 01:02
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 83 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 01:44
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 102 jazzmumbles 31-Aug-19 01:25
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 89 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 01:37
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 92 jazzmumbles 31-Aug-19 02:42
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 82 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 02:58
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 78 Itatw70s 01-Sep-19 20:31
NOPE 80 drrayeye 01-Sep-19 22:47
Re: NOPE 81 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 20:59
Science is not a threat 92 drrayeye 02-Sep-19 21:11
Re: Science is not a threat 89 Itatw70s 02-Sep-19 21:37
Re: Science is not a threat 92 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 03:00
Re: Science is not a threat 72 Itatw70s 03-Sep-19 06:04
Re: Science is not a threat 83 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 07:31
Re: Science is not a threat 72 Susan Doris 03-Sep-19 07:47
Of course 87 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 08:05
Re: Of course 77 Susan Doris 03-Sep-19 10:14
Re: Of course 83 Itatw70s 03-Sep-19 11:40
Just Passing Through 103 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 12:54
"There is nowhere where there is not God".... 74 Itatw70s 03-Sep-19 22:17
Agreed 86 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 23:58
philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 86 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 11:54
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 92 Susan Doris 31-Aug-19 15:09
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 82 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 15:56
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 80 Susan Doris 31-Aug-19 17:51
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 92 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 18:49
Thought experimentation is the key.... 86 Itatw70s 01-Sep-19 21:03
From Descartes to the present 91 drrayeye 31-Aug-19 18:20
Re: From Descartes to the present 92 Susan Doris 01-Sep-19 05:12
You can lead a horse to water . . . 91 drrayeye 01-Sep-19 06:20
Re: philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 104 jazzmumbles 02-Sep-19 00:18
Nah 90 drrayeye 02-Sep-19 06:48
No not an extra you are the star. 110 grangram 03-Sep-19 07:39
Sorry 103 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 08:44
I don't think Dawkins likes the theory? 87 grangram 04-Sep-19 08:02
Re: I don't think Dawkins likes the theory? 94 drrayeye 04-Sep-19 13:15
Re: I don't think Dawkins likes the theory? 85 Poster Boy 04-Sep-19 19:44
The greatest cult of all... 80 Eddie Larry 04-Sep-19 21:08
Re: The greatest cult of all... 90 Itatw70s 04-Sep-19 22:55
Re: The greatest cult of all... 77 Eddie Larry 04-Sep-19 23:01
Re: The greatest cult of all... 94 Itatw70s 04-Sep-19 23:05
Re: The greatest cult of all... 76 Eddie Larry 05-Sep-19 02:16
Human imagination 73 grangram 05-Sep-19 10:00
Re: Human imagination 76 Eddie Larry 05-Sep-19 19:34
The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 102 grangram 05-Sep-19 08:29
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 93 Itatw70s 05-Sep-19 11:41
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 91 grangram 05-Sep-19 11:57
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 80 Susan Doris 05-Sep-19 12:18
Lazy Lazy Lazy 92 drrayeye 05-Sep-19 16:12
Re: Lazy Lazy Lazy 79 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 05:01
The links are there 79 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 07:06
Re: The links are there 82 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 12:21
Re: The links are there 81 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 12:51
Re: The links are there 77 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 16:07
Further thoughts 66 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 17:56
Re: The links are there 72 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 12:40
Re: The links are there 72 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 16:26
Re: The links are there 71 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 18:12
One of the things I've learned 70 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 19:19
Re: One of the things I've learned 73 Poster Boy 06-Sep-19 19:47
Re: One of the things I've learned 79 Susan Doris 07-Sep-19 05:26
Dr. Sam 72 drrayeye 07-Sep-19 06:35
Re: Dr. Sam 75 Susan Doris 07-Sep-19 07:01
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 82 Poster Boy 05-Sep-19 20:15
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 83 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 05:05
Re: The better question may be to question the nature of reality itself. 83 Poster Boy 05-Sep-19 20:13
Strongly disagree 94 drrayeye 05-Sep-19 21:09
Re: Strongly disagree 86 Poster Boy 05-Sep-19 21:28
The visual field (brain) and the visual world (mind) 101 drrayeye 05-Sep-19 20:28
Re: The visual field (brain) and the visual world (mind) 82 Susan Doris 06-Sep-19 05:12
I did 86 drrayeye 06-Sep-19 07:20
Thanks 93 grangram 06-Sep-19 08:14
Re: No not an extra you are the star. 99 jazzmumbles 07-Sep-19 22:14
Re: No not an extra you are the star. 76 grangram 11-Sep-19 20:26
Re: Empirical science, philosophy of science--and spiritual experiences 73 grangram 11-Sep-19 20:12
medical science is an oxymoron 84 drrayeye 11-Sep-19 21:41
Thank God for plumbers and electricians 85 grangram 13-Sep-19 07:38
Re: Thank God for plumbers and electricians 89 Susan Doris 13-Sep-19 10:30
Re: Thank God for plumbers and electricians 71 Poster Boy 13-Sep-19 16:09
Re: Thank God for plumbers and electricians 69 Eddie Larry 13-Sep-19 17:48
medicine vs. science 70 drrayeye 13-Sep-19 17:52
Re: medicine vs. science 77 Poster Boy 13-Sep-19 18:19
A critical distinction 77 drrayeye 13-Sep-19 19:50
Save a prayer for the scientist 81 drrayeye 13-Sep-19 11:03
James 2:14 78 grangram 14-Sep-19 11:34
Re: James 2:14 82 drrayeye 14-Sep-19 15:24
Pence's health care 73 grangram 15-Sep-19 22:18
Second Timothy 2: 15 116 drrayeye 16-Sep-19 00:32
Re: James 2:14 72 Glass Jigsaw 15-Sep-19 20:26
It's always different 60 drrayeye 16-Sep-19 00:17


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