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Nolondil Wrote:

An excellent answer!
-------------------------------------------------------
> Poster Boy Wrote:
>
> > Leaving aside the churches' corrupting
> influences,
> > what about those serial killers, etc? Surely
> you
> > wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect
> > archers!?
> >
>
Nolondil This will quickly lead us into the weeds of the
> definitions of individual identity and free will.
> How did the 'serial killer' become a
> 'serial killer'? Was it some sort of traumatic
> experience in their own lives (which may of them
> do have when you investigate) and how well did
> they cope with it? And when does someone begin to
> be held responsible for themselves?...
> The greater consequences don't change the nature
> of the situation. On the other hand, if they could
> not have changed the outcome, they are not
> entirely responsible, are they? :)

PB - I firmly agree.
>
> And these questions are a smaller scale version of
> the question of the nature of evil. Is evil 'real'
> in itself? Or merely a separation/privation from
> the good? This is the famous distinction between
> Augustine/Boethius (and the generally held
> 'Christian' view) that evil is merely privation of
> good -- loss of perfection -- and the Manichean
> view that evil is something real in itself,
> independent of and opposed to good -- and
> irredeemable...

PB And...
>
Nolondil > > Mainly, I dispute that this authority
> exists
> > > among mortal kind.
> >
PB > If I may ask, do you believe that such an
> > authority does or might exist elsewhere?
>
Nolondil - This really could get into metaphysics. Are there
> 'beings of higher rank' than humans? Something
> that does come up on this board from time to time.
> :) Personally, I wasn't thinking of some other
> 'authority', I was thinking of laws of cause and
> effect more like karma. Which humans could not
> alter any more than the laws of physics.

PB, it does necessarily get into metaphysics, I think. Personally,
when it comes to this issue I rely mainly on my own life experience,
rather than turning to the philosophies of others. In this context
I refer to various spiritual experiences, where I believe this matter
was addressed.

For whatever it's worth, Nolondil, at the end of the day, I believe
that we live in a universe that is ultimately an extension of a greater Mind,
that we generally call God. Others call it the Tao, some the Brahman etc.

The perception of separation between 'Mind' and matter, or the universal
infinite-Mind and the sub-infinite realms is/are the ultimate
Maya, and at the higher levels of awareness this becomes clear and is
something that can be directly experienced, if only temporarily.

To your earlier point, in my estimation it follows that there is potential
to sin at various sub-infinite levels, and that such manifestations are
likely often due to indirect causes where the individual soul becomes a
victim of its environment or is prone to error for being sub-infinitely aware -
regardless of how advanced or high that level is. Such errors contain a
volitional element, but are not necessarily evil when initially made although
there seems to be great potential to exacerbate the consequences of such
original sins. Susan alludes to thresholds in this thread. I suppose that I
would say that there is such a line, with the most serious consequences being
appropriately called 'evil' for various reasons.

So, my own conclusion is that 'sin' and 'evil' are very real, but born of the
separation that necessarily follows immersion into the sub-infinite realms. I
believe that Jesus somehow understood, or was made to understand, the mechanics
of Mind-matter physics and somehow understood that dying for our sins was the remedy.
Mind-matter physics would probably be the "authority" that I envision, Nolondil, or
a significant part of it. I believe there is a universal God, of course, but I
don't think He whimsically goes about punishing us for our transgressions as much
as we set in motion processes that are more mechanistic, ie 'karmic' in nature.
Karma likely speaks to the concept of 'original' sin, I figure. As a doctrine
there is no contradiction about us being born as sinners if in the past we have
incurred karmic debt.

PB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31-May-18 19:03 by Poster Boy.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 1220 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 237 PB Bytes 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 226 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 228 PB Bytes 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 230 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 220 PB Bytes 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 220 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 201 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 214 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 213 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 200 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 220 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 208 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 199 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 186 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 219 PB Bytes 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 198 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 211 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 208 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 215 PB Bytes 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 273 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 213 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 222 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 255 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 222 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 200 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 201 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 217 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 211 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 242 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 228 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 256 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 196 PB Bytes 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 203 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 204 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 198 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 211 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 194 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 215 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 303 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 198 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 211 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 194 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 197 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 217 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 197 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 220 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 213 PB Bytes 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 198 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 224 PB Bytes 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 203 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 210 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 202 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 201 PB Bytes 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 217 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 264 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 244 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 233 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 219 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 213 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 194 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 205 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 197 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 207 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 221 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 197 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 189 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 249 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 216 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 273 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 237 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 281 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 203 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 212 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 186 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 204 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 220 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 190 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 227 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 191 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 253 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 189 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 184 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 202 PB Bytes 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 206 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 190 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 249 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 217 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 204 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 234 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 195 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 207 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 209 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 187 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 202 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 221 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 194 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 238 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 196 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 209 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 203 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 209 PB Bytes 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 194 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 206 PB Bytes 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 204 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 233 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 224 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 223 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 274 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 194 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 225 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 206 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 241 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 206 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 212 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 236 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 196 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 197 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 231 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 207 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 216 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 189 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 184 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 203 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 246 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 277 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 203 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 195 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 215 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 219 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 193 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 209 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 195 PB Bytes 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 204 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 217 PB Bytes 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 204 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 202 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 205 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 195 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 193 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 215 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 197 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 208 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 274 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 210 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 203 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 219 PB Bytes 31-May-18 17:35
Job 221 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 208 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 229 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 249 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 324 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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