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Nolondil Wrote:

An excellent answer!
-------------------------------------------------------
> Poster Boy Wrote:
>
> > Leaving aside the churches' corrupting
> influences,
> > what about those serial killers, etc? Surely
> you
> > wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect
> > archers!?
> >
>
Nolondil This will quickly lead us into the weeds of the
> definitions of individual identity and free will.
> How did the 'serial killer' become a
> 'serial killer'? Was it some sort of traumatic
> experience in their own lives (which may of them
> do have when you investigate) and how well did
> they cope with it? And when does someone begin to
> be held responsible for themselves?...
> The greater consequences don't change the nature
> of the situation. On the other hand, if they could
> not have changed the outcome, they are not
> entirely responsible, are they? :)

PB - I firmly agree.
>
> And these questions are a smaller scale version of
> the question of the nature of evil. Is evil 'real'
> in itself? Or merely a separation/privation from
> the good? This is the famous distinction between
> Augustine/Boethius (and the generally held
> 'Christian' view) that evil is merely privation of
> good -- loss of perfection -- and the Manichean
> view that evil is something real in itself,
> independent of and opposed to good -- and
> irredeemable...

PB And...
>
Nolondil > > Mainly, I dispute that this authority
> exists
> > > among mortal kind.
> >
PB > If I may ask, do you believe that such an
> > authority does or might exist elsewhere?
>
Nolondil - This really could get into metaphysics. Are there
> 'beings of higher rank' than humans? Something
> that does come up on this board from time to time.
> :) Personally, I wasn't thinking of some other
> 'authority', I was thinking of laws of cause and
> effect more like karma. Which humans could not
> alter any more than the laws of physics.

PB, it does necessarily get into metaphysics, I think. Personally,
when it comes to this issue I rely mainly on my own life experience,
rather than turning to the philosophies of others. In this context
I refer to various spiritual experiences, where I believe this matter
was addressed.

For whatever it's worth, Nolondil, at the end of the day, I believe
that we live in a universe that is ultimately an extension of a greater Mind,
that we generally call God. Others call it the Tao, some the Brahman etc.

The perception of separation between 'Mind' and matter, or the universal
infinite-Mind and the sub-infinite realms is/are the ultimate
Maya, and at the higher levels of awareness this becomes clear and is
something that can be directly experienced, if only temporarily.

To your earlier point, in my estimation it follows that there is potential
to sin at various sub-infinite levels, and that such manifestations are
likely often due to indirect causes where the individual soul becomes a
victim of its environment or is prone to error for being sub-infinitely aware -
regardless of how advanced or high that level is. Such errors contain a
volitional element, but are not necessarily evil when initially made although
there seems to be great potential to exacerbate the consequences of such
original sins. Susan alludes to thresholds in this thread. I suppose that I
would say that there is such a line, with the most serious consequences being
appropriately called 'evil' for various reasons.

So, my own conclusion is that 'sin' and 'evil' are very real, but born of the
separation that necessarily follows immersion into the sub-infinite realms. I
believe that Jesus somehow understood, or was made to understand, the mechanics
of Mind-matter physics and somehow understood that dying for our sins was the remedy.
Mind-matter physics would probably be the "authority" that I envision, Nolondil, or
a significant part of it. I believe there is a universal God, of course, but I
don't think He whimsically goes about punishing us for our transgressions as much
as we set in motion processes that are more mechanistic, ie 'karmic' in nature.
Karma likely speaks to the concept of 'original' sin, I figure. As a doctrine
there is no contradiction about us being born as sinners if in the past we have
incurred karmic debt.

PB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31-May-18 19:03 by Poster Boy.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 984 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 139 Poster Boy 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 126 Poster Boy 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 129 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 124 Poster Boy 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 129 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 119 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 118 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 120 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 116 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 112 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 104 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Poster Boy 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 112 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 121 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 121 Poster Boy 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 158 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 119 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 125 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 145 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 123 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 110 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 118 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 116 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 113 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 154 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 136 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 162 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 111 Poster Boy 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 116 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 114 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 111 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 115 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 111 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 116 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 166 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 109 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 106 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 107 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 116 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 114 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 116 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 113 Poster Boy 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 111 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 128 Poster Boy 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 118 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 106 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 112 Poster Boy 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 113 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 129 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 134 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 149 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 122 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 108 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 104 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 104 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 105 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 111 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 113 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 109 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 106 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 136 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 118 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 180 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 146 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 171 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 116 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 112 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 100 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 111 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 129 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 102 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 130 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 105 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 129 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 104 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 103 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 105 Poster Boy 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 111 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 107 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 139 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 112 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 118 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 133 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 109 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 114 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 108 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 106 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 105 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 130 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 102 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 140 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 108 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 103 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 108 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 110 Poster Boy 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 105 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 113 Poster Boy 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 105 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 140 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 143 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 135 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 171 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 115 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 127 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 118 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 132 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 103 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 107 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 133 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 108 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 105 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 133 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 107 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 123 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 106 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 94 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 105 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 141 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 131 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 104 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 109 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 111 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 110 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 102 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 115 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 112 Poster Boy 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 110 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 117 Poster Boy 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 116 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 115 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 108 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 113 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 95 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 113 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 113 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 110 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 136 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 110 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 117 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 110 Poster Boy 31-May-18 17:35
Job 125 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 126 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 131 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 157 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 204 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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