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Nolondil Wrote:

An excellent answer!
-------------------------------------------------------
> Poster Boy Wrote:
>
> > Leaving aside the churches' corrupting
> influences,
> > what about those serial killers, etc? Surely
> you
> > wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect
> > archers!?
> >
>
Nolondil This will quickly lead us into the weeds of the
> definitions of individual identity and free will.
> How did the 'serial killer' become a
> 'serial killer'? Was it some sort of traumatic
> experience in their own lives (which may of them
> do have when you investigate) and how well did
> they cope with it? And when does someone begin to
> be held responsible for themselves?...
> The greater consequences don't change the nature
> of the situation. On the other hand, if they could
> not have changed the outcome, they are not
> entirely responsible, are they? :)

PB - I firmly agree.
>
> And these questions are a smaller scale version of
> the question of the nature of evil. Is evil 'real'
> in itself? Or merely a separation/privation from
> the good? This is the famous distinction between
> Augustine/Boethius (and the generally held
> 'Christian' view) that evil is merely privation of
> good -- loss of perfection -- and the Manichean
> view that evil is something real in itself,
> independent of and opposed to good -- and
> irredeemable...

PB And...
>
Nolondil > > Mainly, I dispute that this authority
> exists
> > > among mortal kind.
> >
PB > If I may ask, do you believe that such an
> > authority does or might exist elsewhere?
>
Nolondil - This really could get into metaphysics. Are there
> 'beings of higher rank' than humans? Something
> that does come up on this board from time to time.
> :) Personally, I wasn't thinking of some other
> 'authority', I was thinking of laws of cause and
> effect more like karma. Which humans could not
> alter any more than the laws of physics.

PB, it does necessarily get into metaphysics, I think. Personally,
when it comes to this issue I rely mainly on my own life experience,
rather than turning to the philosophies of others. In this context
I refer to various spiritual experiences, where I believe this matter
was addressed.

For whatever it's worth, Nolondil, at the end of the day, I believe
that we live in a universe that is ultimately an extension of a greater Mind,
that we generally call God. Others call it the Tao, some the Brahman etc.

The perception of separation between 'Mind' and matter, or the universal
infinite-Mind and the sub-infinite realms is/are the ultimate
Maya, and at the higher levels of awareness this becomes clear and is
something that can be directly experienced, if only temporarily.

To your earlier point, in my estimation it follows that there is potential
to sin at various sub-infinite levels, and that such manifestations are
likely often due to indirect causes where the individual soul becomes a
victim of its environment or is prone to error for being sub-infinitely aware -
regardless of how advanced or high that level is. Such errors contain a
volitional element, but are not necessarily evil when initially made although
there seems to be great potential to exacerbate the consequences of such
original sins. Susan alludes to thresholds in this thread. I suppose that I
would say that there is such a line, with the most serious consequences being
appropriately called 'evil' for various reasons.

So, my own conclusion is that 'sin' and 'evil' are very real, but born of the
separation that necessarily follows immersion into the sub-infinite realms. I
believe that Jesus somehow understood, or was made to understand, the mechanics
of Mind-matter physics and somehow understood that dying for our sins was the remedy.
Mind-matter physics would probably be the "authority" that I envision, Nolondil, or
a significant part of it. I believe there is a universal God, of course, but I
don't think He whimsically goes about punishing us for our transgressions as much
as we set in motion processes that are more mechanistic, ie 'karmic' in nature.
Karma likely speaks to the concept of 'original' sin, I figure. As a doctrine
there is no contradiction about us being born as sinners if in the past we have
incurred karmic debt.

PB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31-May-18 19:03 by Poster Boy.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 1106 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 185 Poster Boy 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 174 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 170 Poster Boy 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 173 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 157 Poster Boy 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 164 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 151 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 160 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 162 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 151 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 150 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 160 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 147 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 131 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 162 Poster Boy 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 145 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 154 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 153 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 155 Poster Boy 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 208 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 158 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 170 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 201 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 169 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 150 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 149 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 161 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 156 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 185 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 179 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 196 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 141 Poster Boy 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 149 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 148 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 147 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 158 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 147 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 159 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 232 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 147 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 153 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 140 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 150 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 160 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 149 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 164 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 160 Poster Boy 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 147 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 172 Poster Boy 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 154 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 159 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 144 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 146 Poster Boy 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 154 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 184 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 188 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 182 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 166 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 155 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 137 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 149 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 140 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 156 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 158 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 143 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 140 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 193 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 162 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 216 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 180 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 221 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 146 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 157 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 140 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 149 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 162 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 130 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 177 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 135 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 193 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 134 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 135 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 144 Poster Boy 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 153 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 137 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 194 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 158 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 151 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 177 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 144 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 152 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 152 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 138 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 146 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 172 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 143 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 180 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 141 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 144 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 151 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 144 Poster Boy 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 141 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 150 Poster Boy 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 147 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 170 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 176 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 173 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 221 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 144 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 168 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 152 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 183 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 148 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 156 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 178 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 146 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 143 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 173 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 151 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 158 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 135 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 126 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 150 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 192 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 206 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 147 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 141 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 149 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 159 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 138 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 159 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 142 Poster Boy 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 153 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 161 Poster Boy 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 150 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 148 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 150 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 146 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 135 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 159 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 147 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 160 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 203 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 154 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 148 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 159 Poster Boy 31-May-18 17:35
Job 166 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 156 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 171 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 198 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 262 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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