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Nolondil Wrote:

An excellent answer!
-------------------------------------------------------
> Poster Boy Wrote:
>
> > Leaving aside the churches' corrupting
> influences,
> > what about those serial killers, etc? Surely
> you
> > wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect
> > archers!?
> >
>
Nolondil This will quickly lead us into the weeds of the
> definitions of individual identity and free will.
> How did the 'serial killer' become a
> 'serial killer'? Was it some sort of traumatic
> experience in their own lives (which may of them
> do have when you investigate) and how well did
> they cope with it? And when does someone begin to
> be held responsible for themselves?...
> The greater consequences don't change the nature
> of the situation. On the other hand, if they could
> not have changed the outcome, they are not
> entirely responsible, are they? :)

PB - I firmly agree.
>
> And these questions are a smaller scale version of
> the question of the nature of evil. Is evil 'real'
> in itself? Or merely a separation/privation from
> the good? This is the famous distinction between
> Augustine/Boethius (and the generally held
> 'Christian' view) that evil is merely privation of
> good -- loss of perfection -- and the Manichean
> view that evil is something real in itself,
> independent of and opposed to good -- and
> irredeemable...

PB And...
>
Nolondil > > Mainly, I dispute that this authority
> exists
> > > among mortal kind.
> >
PB > If I may ask, do you believe that such an
> > authority does or might exist elsewhere?
>
Nolondil - This really could get into metaphysics. Are there
> 'beings of higher rank' than humans? Something
> that does come up on this board from time to time.
> :) Personally, I wasn't thinking of some other
> 'authority', I was thinking of laws of cause and
> effect more like karma. Which humans could not
> alter any more than the laws of physics.

PB, it does necessarily get into metaphysics, I think. Personally,
when it comes to this issue I rely mainly on my own life experience,
rather than turning to the philosophies of others. In this context
I refer to various spiritual experiences, where I believe this matter
was addressed.

For whatever it's worth, Nolondil, at the end of the day, I believe
that we live in a universe that is ultimately an extension of a greater Mind,
that we generally call God. Others call it the Tao, some the Brahman etc.

The perception of separation between 'Mind' and matter, or the universal
infinite-Mind and the sub-infinite realms is/are the ultimate
Maya, and at the higher levels of awareness this becomes clear and is
something that can be directly experienced, if only temporarily.

To your earlier point, in my estimation it follows that there is potential
to sin at various sub-infinite levels, and that such manifestations are
likely often due to indirect causes where the individual soul becomes a
victim of its environment or is prone to error for being sub-infinitely aware -
regardless of how advanced or high that level is. Such errors contain a
volitional element, but are not necessarily evil when initially made although
there seems to be great potential to exacerbate the consequences of such
original sins. Susan alludes to thresholds in this thread. I suppose that I
would say that there is such a line, with the most serious consequences being
appropriately called 'evil' for various reasons.

So, my own conclusion is that 'sin' and 'evil' are very real, but born of the
separation that necessarily follows immersion into the sub-infinite realms. I
believe that Jesus somehow understood, or was made to understand, the mechanics
of Mind-matter physics and somehow understood that dying for our sins was the remedy.
Mind-matter physics would probably be the "authority" that I envision, Nolondil, or
a significant part of it. I believe there is a universal God, of course, but I
don't think He whimsically goes about punishing us for our transgressions as much
as we set in motion processes that are more mechanistic, ie 'karmic' in nature.
Karma likely speaks to the concept of 'original' sin, I figure. As a doctrine
there is no contradiction about us being born as sinners if in the past we have
incurred karmic debt.

PB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31-May-18 19:03 by Poster Boy.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 932 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 124 Poster Boy 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 111 Poster Boy 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 112 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 109 Poster Boy 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 105 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 99 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 103 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 103 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 101 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 101 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 97 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 90 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 100 Poster Boy 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 97 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 105 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 100 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 103 Poster Boy 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 139 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 105 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 110 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 120 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 109 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 97 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 102 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 102 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 98 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 136 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 120 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 142 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 96 Poster Boy 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 101 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 98 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 97 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 100 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 95 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 100 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 143 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 95 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 92 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 92 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 101 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 100 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 101 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 100 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 98 Poster Boy 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 96 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 112 Poster Boy 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 103 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 103 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 91 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 98 Poster Boy 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 99 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 113 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 134 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 109 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 94 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 90 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 91 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 91 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 96 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 96 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 93 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 88 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 121 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 103 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 163 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 133 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 151 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 101 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 97 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 87 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 95 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 112 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 89 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 110 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 91 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 113 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 90 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 88 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 92 Poster Boy 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 96 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 92 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 120 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 97 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 102 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 116 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 94 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 99 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 93 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 91 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 91 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 114 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 90 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 119 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 94 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 90 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 95 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 94 Poster Boy 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 90 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 98 Poster Boy 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 91 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 126 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 128 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 119 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 154 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 101 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 110 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 103 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 117 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 90 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 92 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 113 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 93 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 91 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 111 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 93 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 101 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 91 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 82 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 90 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 122 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 107 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 91 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 95 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 91 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 96 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 88 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 102 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 98 Poster Boy 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 96 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 103 Poster Boy 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 101 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 100 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 94 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 97 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 82 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 98 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 97 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 94 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 113 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 97 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 102 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 95 Poster Boy 31-May-18 17:35
Job 111 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 112 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 117 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 143 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 178 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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