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Nolondil Wrote:

An excellent answer!
-------------------------------------------------------
> Poster Boy Wrote:
>
> > Leaving aside the churches' corrupting
> influences,
> > what about those serial killers, etc? Surely
> you
> > wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect
> > archers!?
> >
>
Nolondil This will quickly lead us into the weeds of the
> definitions of individual identity and free will.
> How did the 'serial killer' become a
> 'serial killer'? Was it some sort of traumatic
> experience in their own lives (which may of them
> do have when you investigate) and how well did
> they cope with it? And when does someone begin to
> be held responsible for themselves?...
> The greater consequences don't change the nature
> of the situation. On the other hand, if they could
> not have changed the outcome, they are not
> entirely responsible, are they? :)

PB - I firmly agree.
>
> And these questions are a smaller scale version of
> the question of the nature of evil. Is evil 'real'
> in itself? Or merely a separation/privation from
> the good? This is the famous distinction between
> Augustine/Boethius (and the generally held
> 'Christian' view) that evil is merely privation of
> good -- loss of perfection -- and the Manichean
> view that evil is something real in itself,
> independent of and opposed to good -- and
> irredeemable...

PB And...
>
Nolondil > > Mainly, I dispute that this authority
> exists
> > > among mortal kind.
> >
PB > If I may ask, do you believe that such an
> > authority does or might exist elsewhere?
>
Nolondil - This really could get into metaphysics. Are there
> 'beings of higher rank' than humans? Something
> that does come up on this board from time to time.
> :) Personally, I wasn't thinking of some other
> 'authority', I was thinking of laws of cause and
> effect more like karma. Which humans could not
> alter any more than the laws of physics.

PB, it does necessarily get into metaphysics, I think. Personally,
when it comes to this issue I rely mainly on my own life experience,
rather than turning to the philosophies of others. In this context
I refer to various spiritual experiences, where I believe this matter
was addressed.

For whatever it's worth, Nolondil, at the end of the day, I believe
that we live in a universe that is ultimately an extension of a greater Mind,
that we generally call God. Others call it the Tao, some the Brahman etc.

The perception of separation between 'Mind' and matter, or the universal
infinite-Mind and the sub-infinite realms is/are the ultimate
Maya, and at the higher levels of awareness this becomes clear and is
something that can be directly experienced, if only temporarily.

To your earlier point, in my estimation it follows that there is potential
to sin at various sub-infinite levels, and that such manifestations are
likely often due to indirect causes where the individual soul becomes a
victim of its environment or is prone to error for being sub-infinitely aware -
regardless of how advanced or high that level is. Such errors contain a
volitional element, but are not necessarily evil when initially made although
there seems to be great potential to exacerbate the consequences of such
original sins. Susan alludes to thresholds in this thread. I suppose that I
would say that there is such a line, with the most serious consequences being
appropriately called 'evil' for various reasons.

So, my own conclusion is that 'sin' and 'evil' are very real, but born of the
separation that necessarily follows immersion into the sub-infinite realms. I
believe that Jesus somehow understood, or was made to understand, the mechanics
of Mind-matter physics and somehow understood that dying for our sins was the remedy.
Mind-matter physics would probably be the "authority" that I envision, Nolondil, or
a significant part of it. I believe there is a universal God, of course, but I
don't think He whimsically goes about punishing us for our transgressions as much
as we set in motion processes that are more mechanistic, ie 'karmic' in nature.
Karma likely speaks to the concept of 'original' sin, I figure. As a doctrine
there is no contradiction about us being born as sinners if in the past we have
incurred karmic debt.

PB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31-May-18 19:03 by Poster Boy.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 1022 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 150 Poster Boy 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 140 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 137 Poster Boy 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 139 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 135 Poster Boy 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 140 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 129 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 125 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 128 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 131 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 127 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 127 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 124 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 113 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 126 Poster Boy 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 123 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 133 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 127 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 134 Poster Boy 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 168 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 128 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 137 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 168 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 134 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 118 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 128 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 127 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 124 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 165 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 147 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 176 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 122 Poster Boy 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 127 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 126 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 123 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 127 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 127 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 127 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 187 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 122 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 119 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 118 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 128 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 126 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 128 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 131 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 126 Poster Boy 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 124 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 139 Poster Boy 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 126 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 114 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 123 Poster Boy 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 123 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 139 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 149 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 159 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 132 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 117 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 114 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 114 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 115 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 122 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 125 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 121 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 118 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 154 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 128 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 196 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 156 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 187 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 126 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 121 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 109 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 123 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 139 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 110 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 144 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 115 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 148 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 114 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 113 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 113 Poster Boy 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 120 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 117 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 156 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 123 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 127 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 150 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 120 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 128 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 119 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 116 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 115 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 146 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 113 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 157 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 118 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 113 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 118 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 121 Poster Boy 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 119 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 125 Poster Boy 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 115 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 150 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 153 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 146 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 188 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 125 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 138 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 129 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 149 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 113 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 119 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 146 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 121 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 119 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 147 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 119 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 136 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 116 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 100 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 115 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 155 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 154 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 114 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 119 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 130 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 122 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 113 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 125 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 123 Poster Boy 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 121 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 129 Poster Boy 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 126 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 125 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 118 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 124 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 103 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 124 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 125 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 121 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 159 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 120 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 126 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 123 Poster Boy 31-May-18 17:35
Job 135 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 137 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 141 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 167 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 231 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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