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Poster Boy Wrote:

>
> Nolondil wrote:
> >
> > The word hamartia, translated very closely by
> > 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before
> > the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial
> > government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin'
> > did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it.
>
>
> The problem with this answer, for me, is that it
> does not account for the worst among us back when
> 'sin' just meant a mistake or missing the mark.
> Leaving aside the churches' corrupting influences,
> what about those serial killers, etc? Surely you
> wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect
> archers!?
>

This will quickly lead us into the weeds of the definitions of individual identity and free will. How did the 'serial killer' become a 'serial killer'? Was it some sort of traumatic experience in their own lives (which many of them do have when you investigate) and how well did they cope with it? And when does someone begin to be held responsible for themselves? Sure, not everyone who is abused as a child grows up to become an abuser, but is the difference entirely down to their choices, or are there circumstances that people cannot overcome with 'free will'? In the one case, if there were choices made that genuinely changed the outcome, then they are responsible just as with any smaller 'mistake'. The greater consequences don't change the nature of the situation. On the other hand, if they could not have changed the outcome, they are not entirely responsible, are they? :)

And these questions are a smaller scale version of the question of the nature of evil. Is evil 'real' in itself? Or merely a separation/privation from the good? This is the famous distinction between Augustine/Boethius (and the generally held 'Christian' view) that evil is merely privation of good -- loss of perfection -- and the Manichean view that evil is something real in itself, independent of and opposed to good -- and irredeemable.

> > But the concept has been severely corrupted by the
> > drive to control people. The sense of debt, and
> > the power of the official church to judge it
> > and even discharge it
, is the new layer that
> > concerns me (and many others).
>
>
> We're certainly on the same page there, Nolondil.
> But to my same question, what of those clergy who
> preach damnation only as a means of
> self-enrichment, (those who don't believe in
> damnation, other than its potential for profit)?
> Is that just another mistake, or is it a 'sin' as
> we might use the term now, something that is just
> wrong, premeditated and vile?
>

Same issues as above. How did the devious, manipulating preacher get to be that way? Could they have made individual choices that would have made their character (and life) turn out differently? Or were they bound by 'fate' of external circumstances? But again, the greater consequences don't change the basic nature of the situation.

All of this comes down to how much importance (and power) you assign to the 'individual' and their 'free will'.

> > Mainly, I dispute that this authority exists
> > among mortal kind.
>
> If I may ask, do you believe that such an
> authority does or might exist elsewhere?

This really could get into metaphysics. Are there 'beings of higher rank' than humans? Something that does come up on this board from time to time. :) Personally, I wasn't thinking of some other 'authority', I was thinking of laws of cause and effect more like karma. Which humans could not alter any more than the laws of physics.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01-Jun-18 00:38 by Nolondil.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 989 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 141 Poster Boy 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 132 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 128 Poster Boy 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 126 Poster Boy 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 120 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 116 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 119 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 122 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 119 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 114 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 106 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 118 Poster Boy 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 114 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 123 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 122 Poster Boy 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 159 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 120 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 127 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 146 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 127 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 111 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 119 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 119 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 116 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 156 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 138 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 164 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 113 Poster Boy 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 116 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 114 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 116 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 114 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 117 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 169 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 111 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 107 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 108 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 116 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 119 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 118 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Poster Boy 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 113 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 131 Poster Boy 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 119 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 119 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 107 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 114 Poster Boy 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 114 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 136 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 150 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 124 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 110 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 107 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 107 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 106 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 114 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 114 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 111 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 108 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 137 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 119 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 180 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 149 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 173 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 119 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 114 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 101 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 113 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 132 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 103 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 133 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 106 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 131 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 106 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 105 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 108 Poster Boy 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 113 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 109 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 139 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 113 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 120 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 133 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 111 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 116 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 109 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 108 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 106 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 131 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 104 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 142 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 110 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 105 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 110 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 111 Poster Boy 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 106 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 115 Poster Boy 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 106 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 141 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 146 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 139 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 172 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 117 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 131 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 121 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 133 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 106 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 109 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 136 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 109 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 107 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 135 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 109 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 125 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 108 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 95 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 107 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 143 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 131 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 106 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 111 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 111 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 113 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 104 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 118 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 113 Poster Boy 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 111 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 121 Poster Boy 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 119 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 117 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 110 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 114 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 96 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 116 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 114 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 112 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 137 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 112 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 118 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 111 Poster Boy 31-May-18 17:35
Job 127 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 128 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 133 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 158 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 207 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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