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Poster Boy Wrote:

>
> Nolondil wrote:
> >
> > The word hamartia, translated very closely by
> > 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before
> > the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial
> > government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin'
> > did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it.
>
>
> The problem with this answer, for me, is that it
> does not account for the worst among us back when
> 'sin' just meant a mistake or missing the mark.
> Leaving aside the churches' corrupting influences,
> what about those serial killers, etc? Surely you
> wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect
> archers!?
>

This will quickly lead us into the weeds of the definitions of individual identity and free will. How did the 'serial killer' become a 'serial killer'? Was it some sort of traumatic experience in their own lives (which many of them do have when you investigate) and how well did they cope with it? And when does someone begin to be held responsible for themselves? Sure, not everyone who is abused as a child grows up to become an abuser, but is the difference entirely down to their choices, or are there circumstances that people cannot overcome with 'free will'? In the one case, if there were choices made that genuinely changed the outcome, then they are responsible just as with any smaller 'mistake'. The greater consequences don't change the nature of the situation. On the other hand, if they could not have changed the outcome, they are not entirely responsible, are they? :)

And these questions are a smaller scale version of the question of the nature of evil. Is evil 'real' in itself? Or merely a separation/privation from the good? This is the famous distinction between Augustine/Boethius (and the generally held 'Christian' view) that evil is merely privation of good -- loss of perfection -- and the Manichean view that evil is something real in itself, independent of and opposed to good -- and irredeemable.

> > But the concept has been severely corrupted by the
> > drive to control people. The sense of debt, and
> > the power of the official church to judge it
> > and even discharge it
, is the new layer that
> > concerns me (and many others).
>
>
> We're certainly on the same page there, Nolondil.
> But to my same question, what of those clergy who
> preach damnation only as a means of
> self-enrichment, (those who don't believe in
> damnation, other than its potential for profit)?
> Is that just another mistake, or is it a 'sin' as
> we might use the term now, something that is just
> wrong, premeditated and vile?
>

Same issues as above. How did the devious, manipulating preacher get to be that way? Could they have made individual choices that would have made their character (and life) turn out differently? Or were they bound by 'fate' of external circumstances? But again, the greater consequences don't change the basic nature of the situation.

All of this comes down to how much importance (and power) you assign to the 'individual' and their 'free will'.

> > Mainly, I dispute that this authority exists
> > among mortal kind.
>
> If I may ask, do you believe that such an
> authority does or might exist elsewhere?

This really could get into metaphysics. Are there 'beings of higher rank' than humans? Something that does come up on this board from time to time. :) Personally, I wasn't thinking of some other 'authority', I was thinking of laws of cause and effect more like karma. Which humans could not alter any more than the laws of physics.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01-Jun-18 00:38 by Nolondil.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 1046 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 158 Poster Boy 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 147 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 144 Poster Boy 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 146 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 140 Poster Boy 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 147 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 134 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 132 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 134 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 135 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 132 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 132 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 129 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 119 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 133 Poster Boy 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 128 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 138 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 136 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 142 Poster Boy 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 175 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 134 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 144 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 175 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 142 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 122 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 132 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 132 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 129 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 169 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 152 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 181 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 127 Poster Boy 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 131 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 131 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 130 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 132 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 132 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 132 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 196 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 127 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 124 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 126 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 132 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 131 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 132 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 136 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 131 Poster Boy 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 144 Poster Boy 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 134 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 132 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 118 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 128 Poster Boy 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 128 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 144 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 160 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 166 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 138 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 124 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 119 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 119 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 119 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 127 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 130 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 125 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 122 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 164 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 133 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 200 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 161 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 192 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 131 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 126 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 114 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 127 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 144 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 114 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 149 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 120 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 159 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 119 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 120 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 117 Poster Boy 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 125 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 122 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 161 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 128 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 131 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 157 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 126 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 135 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 124 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 120 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 120 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 153 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 118 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 162 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 125 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 118 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 122 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 126 Poster Boy 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 123 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 132 Poster Boy 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 120 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 154 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 160 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 153 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 193 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 129 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 143 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 134 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 154 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 118 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 124 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 151 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 126 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 125 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 153 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 124 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 141 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 121 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 103 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 121 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 161 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 173 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 120 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 125 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 135 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 129 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 122 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 131 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 128 Poster Boy 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 126 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 134 Poster Boy 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 131 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 131 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 123 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 128 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 106 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 129 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 130 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 128 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 178 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 125 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 132 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 128 Poster Boy 31-May-18 17:35
Job 140 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 140 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 146 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 171 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 235 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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