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Poster Boy Wrote:

>
> Nolondil wrote:
> >
> > The word hamartia, translated very closely by
> > 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before
> > the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial
> > government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin'
> > did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it.
>
>
> The problem with this answer, for me, is that it
> does not account for the worst among us back when
> 'sin' just meant a mistake or missing the mark.
> Leaving aside the churches' corrupting influences,
> what about those serial killers, etc? Surely you
> wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect
> archers!?
>

This will quickly lead us into the weeds of the definitions of individual identity and free will. How did the 'serial killer' become a 'serial killer'? Was it some sort of traumatic experience in their own lives (which many of them do have when you investigate) and how well did they cope with it? And when does someone begin to be held responsible for themselves? Sure, not everyone who is abused as a child grows up to become an abuser, but is the difference entirely down to their choices, or are there circumstances that people cannot overcome with 'free will'? In the one case, if there were choices made that genuinely changed the outcome, then they are responsible just as with any smaller 'mistake'. The greater consequences don't change the nature of the situation. On the other hand, if they could not have changed the outcome, they are not entirely responsible, are they? :)

And these questions are a smaller scale version of the question of the nature of evil. Is evil 'real' in itself? Or merely a separation/privation from the good? This is the famous distinction between Augustine/Boethius (and the generally held 'Christian' view) that evil is merely privation of good -- loss of perfection -- and the Manichean view that evil is something real in itself, independent of and opposed to good -- and irredeemable.

> > But the concept has been severely corrupted by the
> > drive to control people. The sense of debt, and
> > the power of the official church to judge it
> > and even discharge it
, is the new layer that
> > concerns me (and many others).
>
>
> We're certainly on the same page there, Nolondil.
> But to my same question, what of those clergy who
> preach damnation only as a means of
> self-enrichment, (those who don't believe in
> damnation, other than its potential for profit)?
> Is that just another mistake, or is it a 'sin' as
> we might use the term now, something that is just
> wrong, premeditated and vile?
>

Same issues as above. How did the devious, manipulating preacher get to be that way? Could they have made individual choices that would have made their character (and life) turn out differently? Or were they bound by 'fate' of external circumstances? But again, the greater consequences don't change the basic nature of the situation.

All of this comes down to how much importance (and power) you assign to the 'individual' and their 'free will'.

> > Mainly, I dispute that this authority exists
> > among mortal kind.
>
> If I may ask, do you believe that such an
> authority does or might exist elsewhere?

This really could get into metaphysics. Are there 'beings of higher rank' than humans? Something that does come up on this board from time to time. :) Personally, I wasn't thinking of some other 'authority', I was thinking of laws of cause and effect more like karma. Which humans could not alter any more than the laws of physics.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01-Jun-18 00:38 by Nolondil.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 916 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 120 Poster Boy 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 110 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 107 Poster Boy 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 108 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 103 Poster Boy 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 109 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 98 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 92 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 97 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 98 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 97 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 97 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 93 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 86 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 96 Poster Boy 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 92 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 99 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 94 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 97 Poster Boy 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 101 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 106 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 111 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 105 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 93 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 96 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 97 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 94 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 129 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 116 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 136 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 92 Poster Boy 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 95 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 94 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 92 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 95 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 91 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 96 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 134 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 89 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 86 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 87 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 96 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 94 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 95 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 96 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 94 Poster Boy 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 92 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 108 Poster Boy 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 96 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 98 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 87 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 94 Poster Boy 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 94 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 109 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 109 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 129 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 104 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 89 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 85 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 86 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 85 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 92 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 91 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 88 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 83 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 115 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 98 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 156 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 128 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 146 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 96 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 93 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 82 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 88 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 106 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 85 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 104 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 85 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 109 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 86 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 84 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 87 Poster Boy 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 92 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 88 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 115 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 91 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 97 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 107 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 89 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 94 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 89 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 85 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 85 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 108 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 85 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 111 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 89 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 86 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 88 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 90 Poster Boy 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 84 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 93 Poster Boy 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 86 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 120 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 124 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 114 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 147 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 95 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 103 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 99 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 110 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 85 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 88 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 106 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 88 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 85 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 102 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 87 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 97 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 86 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 78 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 86 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 114 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 97 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 86 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 90 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 83 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 91 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 83 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 97 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 93 Poster Boy 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 92 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 99 Poster Boy 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 97 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 96 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 89 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 90 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 77 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 93 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 93 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 90 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 105 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 93 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 96 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 90 Poster Boy 31-May-18 17:35
Job 106 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 106 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 113 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 139 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 171 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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