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Nolondil Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Churches as we currently have them are mostly the
> creation of governments. The Roman Catholic and
> Eastern Orthodox Churches are remaining fragments
> of the church created by the Roman Imperial
> Government.


Not sure if I agree, but I think I get what you're getting at. Three centuries of persecution prior to Constantine and all that.


Most Protestant Churches are
> affiliated with governments, essentially "national
> religions". (E.G. - The Episcopal Church is still
> the "official" religion of the UK, for example,
> but the various laws that could be used to
> penalize believers in other religions are not
> actually used any more.) Religious movements that
> don't have government endorsement have tended to
> suffer persecution by those that do have it.
> Consider the various Anabaptists (Amish, and
> related movements) or the Quakers.

So it's not
> some idiosyncratic view on my part to say that
> religions, at least in the "West", are actually
> political movements. Nothing 'Marxist' about it
> either. (But then there's not much at all original
> about Marx anyway...)

No, not idiosyncratic at all. Furthermore, there's a lot of substance to it.
>
> The word hamartia, translated very closely by
> 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before
> the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial
> government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin'
> did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it.


The problem with this answer, for me, is that it does not account for the worst among us back when 'sin' just meant a mistake or missing the mark. Leaving aside the churches' corrupting influences, what about those serial killers, etc? Surely you wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect archers!?

> But the concept has been severely corrupted by the
> drive to control people. The sense of debt, and
> the power of the official church to judge it
> and even discharge it
, is the new layer that
> concerns me (and many others).


We're certainly on the same page there, Nolondil. But to my same question, what of those clergy who preach damnation only as a means of self-enrichment, (those who don't believe in damnation, other than its potential for profit)? Is that just another mistake, or is it a 'sin' as we might use the term now, something that is just wrong, premeditated and vile?

Mainly, I dispute
> that this authority exists among mortal
> kind.

If I may ask, do you believe that such an authority does or might exist elsewhere?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 983 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 139 Poster Boy 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 126 Poster Boy 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 129 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 124 Poster Boy 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 129 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 119 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 118 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 119 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 116 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 112 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 104 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Poster Boy 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 112 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 121 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 121 Poster Boy 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 158 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 119 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 125 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 144 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 123 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 110 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 118 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 116 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 113 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 154 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 136 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 162 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 111 Poster Boy 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 116 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 114 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 111 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 115 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 111 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 116 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 166 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 109 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 106 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 107 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 116 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 114 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 113 Poster Boy 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 111 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 128 Poster Boy 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 106 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 112 Poster Boy 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 113 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 129 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 134 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 149 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 122 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 108 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 104 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 104 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 104 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 111 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 113 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 108 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 106 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 136 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 118 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 180 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 146 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 171 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 116 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 112 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 100 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 110 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 129 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 102 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 130 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 105 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 129 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 104 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 103 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 105 Poster Boy 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 111 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 107 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 139 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 112 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 117 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 133 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 109 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 114 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 108 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 106 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 105 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 130 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 102 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 140 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 108 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 103 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 108 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 110 Poster Boy 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 105 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 113 Poster Boy 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 105 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 140 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 143 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 135 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 171 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 115 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 126 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 118 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 132 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 103 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 107 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 133 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 108 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 105 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 133 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 107 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 123 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 106 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 94 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 105 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 141 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 131 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 104 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 109 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 111 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 110 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 102 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 115 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 112 Poster Boy 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 110 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 117 Poster Boy 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 116 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 115 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 108 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 112 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 95 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 113 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 113 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 110 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 135 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 110 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 117 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 110 Poster Boy 31-May-18 17:35
Job 125 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 126 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 131 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 157 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 204 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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