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Nolondil Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Churches as we currently have them are mostly the
> creation of governments. The Roman Catholic and
> Eastern Orthodox Churches are remaining fragments
> of the church created by the Roman Imperial
> Government.


Not sure if I agree, but I think I get what you're getting at. Three centuries of persecution prior to Constantine and all that.


Most Protestant Churches are
> affiliated with governments, essentially "national
> religions". (E.G. - The Episcopal Church is still
> the "official" religion of the UK, for example,
> but the various laws that could be used to
> penalize believers in other religions are not
> actually used any more.) Religious movements that
> don't have government endorsement have tended to
> suffer persecution by those that do have it.
> Consider the various Anabaptists (Amish, and
> related movements) or the Quakers.

So it's not
> some idiosyncratic view on my part to say that
> religions, at least in the "West", are actually
> political movements. Nothing 'Marxist' about it
> either. (But then there's not much at all original
> about Marx anyway...)

No, not idiosyncratic at all. Furthermore, there's a lot of substance to it.
>
> The word hamartia, translated very closely by
> 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before
> the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial
> government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin'
> did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it.


The problem with this answer, for me, is that it does not account for the worst among us back when 'sin' just meant a mistake or missing the mark. Leaving aside the churches' corrupting influences, what about those serial killers, etc? Surely you wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect archers!?

> But the concept has been severely corrupted by the
> drive to control people. The sense of debt, and
> the power of the official church to judge it
> and even discharge it
, is the new layer that
> concerns me (and many others).


We're certainly on the same page there, Nolondil. But to my same question, what of those clergy who preach damnation only as a means of self-enrichment, (those who don't believe in damnation, other than its potential for profit)? Is that just another mistake, or is it a 'sin' as we might use the term now, something that is just wrong, premeditated and vile?

Mainly, I dispute
> that this authority exists among mortal
> kind.

If I may ask, do you believe that such an authority does or might exist elsewhere?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 932 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 124 Poster Boy 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 111 Poster Boy 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 112 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 109 Poster Boy 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 105 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 99 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 103 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 103 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 101 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 101 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 97 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 90 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 100 Poster Boy 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 97 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 105 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 100 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 103 Poster Boy 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 139 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 105 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 110 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 120 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 109 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 97 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 102 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 102 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 98 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 136 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 120 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 142 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 96 Poster Boy 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 101 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 98 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 97 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 100 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 95 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 100 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 143 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 95 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 92 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 92 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 101 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 100 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 101 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 100 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 98 Poster Boy 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 96 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 112 Poster Boy 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 103 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 103 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 91 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 98 Poster Boy 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 99 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 113 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 134 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 109 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 94 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 90 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 91 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 91 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 96 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 96 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 93 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 88 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 121 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 103 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 163 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 133 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 151 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 101 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 97 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 87 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 95 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 113 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 89 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 110 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 91 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 113 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 90 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 88 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 92 Poster Boy 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 96 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 92 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 120 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 97 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 102 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 116 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 95 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 99 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 93 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 91 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 91 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 114 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 90 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 119 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 94 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 90 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 95 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 94 Poster Boy 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 90 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 98 Poster Boy 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 91 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 126 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 128 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 120 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 154 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 101 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 110 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 103 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 117 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 90 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 93 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 113 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 93 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 91 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 111 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 93 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 101 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 91 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 82 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 90 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 122 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 107 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 91 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 95 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 91 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 96 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 88 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 102 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 98 Poster Boy 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 96 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 103 Poster Boy 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 101 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 100 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 94 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 97 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 82 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 98 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 97 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 94 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 113 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 97 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 102 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 95 Poster Boy 31-May-18 17:35
Job 111 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 112 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 117 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 143 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 178 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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