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Nolondil Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Churches as we currently have them are mostly the
> creation of governments. The Roman Catholic and
> Eastern Orthodox Churches are remaining fragments
> of the church created by the Roman Imperial
> Government.


Not sure if I agree, but I think I get what you're getting at. Three centuries of persecution prior to Constantine and all that.


Most Protestant Churches are
> affiliated with governments, essentially "national
> religions". (E.G. - The Episcopal Church is still
> the "official" religion of the UK, for example,
> but the various laws that could be used to
> penalize believers in other religions are not
> actually used any more.) Religious movements that
> don't have government endorsement have tended to
> suffer persecution by those that do have it.
> Consider the various Anabaptists (Amish, and
> related movements) or the Quakers.

So it's not
> some idiosyncratic view on my part to say that
> religions, at least in the "West", are actually
> political movements. Nothing 'Marxist' about it
> either. (But then there's not much at all original
> about Marx anyway...)

No, not idiosyncratic at all. Furthermore, there's a lot of substance to it.
>
> The word hamartia, translated very closely by
> 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before
> the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial
> government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin'
> did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it.


The problem with this answer, for me, is that it does not account for the worst among us back when 'sin' just meant a mistake or missing the mark. Leaving aside the churches' corrupting influences, what about those serial killers, etc? Surely you wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect archers!?

> But the concept has been severely corrupted by the
> drive to control people. The sense of debt, and
> the power of the official church to judge it
> and even discharge it
, is the new layer that
> concerns me (and many others).


We're certainly on the same page there, Nolondil. But to my same question, what of those clergy who preach damnation only as a means of self-enrichment, (those who don't believe in damnation, other than its potential for profit)? Is that just another mistake, or is it a 'sin' as we might use the term now, something that is just wrong, premeditated and vile?

Mainly, I dispute
> that this authority exists among mortal
> kind.

If I may ask, do you believe that such an authority does or might exist elsewhere?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 1089 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 181 Poster Boy 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 168 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 167 Poster Boy 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 168 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 152 Poster Boy 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 158 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 146 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 154 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 157 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 146 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 145 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 156 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 142 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 127 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 157 Poster Boy 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 140 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 147 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 145 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 151 Poster Boy 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 199 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 154 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 165 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 197 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 166 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 146 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 143 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 158 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 151 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 180 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 174 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 191 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 138 Poster Boy 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 143 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 142 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 142 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 153 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 143 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 153 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 225 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 140 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 148 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 135 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 144 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 155 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 143 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 160 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 155 Poster Boy 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 142 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 168 Poster Boy 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 146 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 155 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 139 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 141 Poster Boy 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 149 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 177 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 181 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 177 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 162 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 151 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 133 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 144 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 131 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 152 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 153 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 136 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 134 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 188 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 157 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 211 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 174 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 217 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 142 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 151 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 136 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 141 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 155 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 125 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 174 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 132 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 188 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 131 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 131 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 140 Poster Boy 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 149 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 133 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 189 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 154 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 145 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 170 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 138 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 146 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 147 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 131 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 142 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 167 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 138 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 175 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 135 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 140 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 146 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 136 Poster Boy 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 133 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 143 Poster Boy 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 143 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 165 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 170 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 167 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 217 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 139 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 163 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 147 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 179 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 144 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 151 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 173 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 140 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 137 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 167 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 146 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 153 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 130 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 123 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 146 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 186 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 200 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 143 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 136 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 146 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 154 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 132 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 155 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 136 Poster Boy 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 149 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 158 Poster Boy 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 144 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 143 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 147 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 139 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 131 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 155 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 142 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 156 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 197 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 151 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 143 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 154 Poster Boy 31-May-18 17:35
Job 162 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 152 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 168 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 195 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 257 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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