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Churches as we currently have them are mostly the creation of governments. The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches are remaining fragments of the church created by the Roman Imperial Government. Most Protestant Churches are affiliated with governments, essentially "national religions". (E.G. - The Episcopal Church is still the "official" religion of the UK, for example, but the various laws that could be used to penalize believers in other religions are not actually used any more.) Religious movements that don't have government endorsement have tended to suffer persecution by those that do have it. Consider the various Anabaptists (Amish, and related movements) or the Quakers. So it's not some idiosyncratic view on my part to say that religions, at least in the "West", are actually political movements. Nothing 'Marxist' about it either. (But then there's not much at all original about Marx anyway...)

The word hamartia, translated very closely by 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin' did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it. But the concept has been severely corrupted by the drive to control people. The sense of debt, and the power of the official church to judge it and even discharge it, is the new layer that concerns me (and many others). Mainly, I dispute that this authority exists among mortal kind. But it is in the interest of the guilt-mongers to keep things conflated so they can have the leverage over people. I think this is what Susan is trying to untangle, though she might not realize it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31-May-18 00:15 by Nolondil.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 1038 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 157 Poster Boy 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 145 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 143 Poster Boy 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 144 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 137 Poster Boy 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 144 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 131 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 132 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 133 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 131 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 126 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 129 Poster Boy 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 125 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 135 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 137 Poster Boy 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 173 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 133 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 141 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 173 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 137 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 121 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 130 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 131 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 127 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 167 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 150 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 178 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 124 Poster Boy 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 129 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 129 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 126 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 130 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 130 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 130 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 192 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 124 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 121 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 120 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 129 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 135 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Poster Boy 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 126 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 142 Poster Boy 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 131 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 129 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 126 Poster Boy 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 126 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 142 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 153 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 161 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 135 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 120 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 117 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 117 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 116 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 126 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 127 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 124 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 120 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 161 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 131 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 198 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 158 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 191 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 129 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 125 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 112 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 125 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 142 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 112 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 148 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 118 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 156 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 118 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 116 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 116 Poster Boy 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 124 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 119 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 158 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 127 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 130 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 152 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 124 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 130 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 122 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 118 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 117 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 148 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 116 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 159 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 121 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 116 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 120 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 123 Poster Boy 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 120 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 127 Poster Boy 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 118 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 152 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 156 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 149 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 191 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 127 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 141 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 132 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 152 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 117 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 122 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 150 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 123 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 120 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 150 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 121 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 139 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 118 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 102 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 119 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 158 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 166 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 118 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 123 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 133 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 128 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 116 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 128 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 124 Poster Boy 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 123 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 133 Poster Boy 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 129 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 127 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 122 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 126 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 105 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 127 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 127 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 127 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 171 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 123 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 128 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 126 Poster Boy 31-May-18 17:35
Job 138 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 138 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 145 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 170 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 234 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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