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Churches as we currently have them are mostly the creation of governments. The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches are remaining fragments of the church created by the Roman Imperial Government. Most Protestant Churches are affiliated with governments, essentially "national religions". (E.G. - The Episcopal Church is still the "official" religion of the UK, for example, but the various laws that could be used to penalize believers in other religions are not actually used any more.) Religious movements that don't have government endorsement have tended to suffer persecution by those that do have it. Consider the various Anabaptists (Amish, and related movements) or the Quakers. So it's not some idiosyncratic view on my part to say that religions, at least in the "West", are actually political movements. Nothing 'Marxist' about it either. (But then there's not much at all original about Marx anyway...)

The word hamartia, translated very closely by 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin' did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it. But the concept has been severely corrupted by the drive to control people. The sense of debt, and the power of the official church to judge it and even discharge it, is the new layer that concerns me (and many others). Mainly, I dispute that this authority exists among mortal kind. But it is in the interest of the guilt-mongers to keep things conflated so they can have the leverage over people. I think this is what Susan is trying to untangle, though she might not realize it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31-May-18 00:15 by Nolondil.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 913 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 118 Poster Boy 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 109 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 105 Poster Boy 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 106 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 101 Poster Boy 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 109 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 97 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 92 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 97 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 97 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 97 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 96 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 93 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 86 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 96 Poster Boy 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 91 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 98 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 94 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 97 Poster Boy 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 129 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 100 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 105 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 110 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 104 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 93 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 96 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 97 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 93 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 127 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 116 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 135 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 91 Poster Boy 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 95 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 94 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 92 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 94 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 91 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 94 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 133 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 88 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 85 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 87 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 95 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 94 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 95 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 95 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 94 Poster Boy 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 92 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 107 Poster Boy 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 96 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 96 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 87 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 94 Poster Boy 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 93 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 108 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 109 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 129 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 103 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 89 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 85 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 85 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 84 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 91 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 90 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 87 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 83 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 111 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 97 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 156 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 127 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 146 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 96 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 93 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 81 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 87 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 105 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 85 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 102 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 85 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 109 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 86 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 84 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 87 Poster Boy 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 91 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 87 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 113 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 91 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 97 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 107 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 88 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 93 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 87 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 85 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 85 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 107 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 85 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 111 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 89 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 84 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 88 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 88 Poster Boy 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 84 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 93 Poster Boy 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 85 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 119 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 124 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 114 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 147 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 95 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 103 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 99 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 109 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 84 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 88 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 105 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 88 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 84 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 101 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 86 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 97 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 85 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 77 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 85 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 112 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 95 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 86 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 90 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 82 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 91 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 83 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 96 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 92 Poster Boy 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 90 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 99 Poster Boy 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 97 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 95 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 89 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 90 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 77 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 92 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 93 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 89 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 103 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 92 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 96 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 90 Poster Boy 31-May-18 17:35
Job 106 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 106 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 112 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 138 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 167 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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