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Churches as we currently have them are mostly the creation of governments. The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches are remaining fragments of the church created by the Roman Imperial Government. Most Protestant Churches are affiliated with governments, essentially "national religions". (E.G. - The Episcopal Church is still the "official" religion of the UK, for example, but the various laws that could be used to penalize believers in other religions are not actually used any more.) Religious movements that don't have government endorsement have tended to suffer persecution by those that do have it. Consider the various Anabaptists (Amish, and related movements) or the Quakers. So it's not some idiosyncratic view on my part to say that religions, at least in the "West", are actually political movements. Nothing 'Marxist' about it either. (But then there's not much at all original about Marx anyway...)

The word hamartia, translated very closely by 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin' did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it. But the concept has been severely corrupted by the drive to control people. The sense of debt, and the power of the official church to judge it and even discharge it, is the new layer that concerns me (and many others). Mainly, I dispute that this authority exists among mortal kind. But it is in the interest of the guilt-mongers to keep things conflated so they can have the leverage over people. I think this is what Susan is trying to untangle, though she might not realize it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31-May-18 00:15 by Nolondil.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 997 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 143 Poster Boy 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 133 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Poster Boy 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 132 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 128 Poster Boy 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 133 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 123 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 118 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 122 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 124 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 121 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 120 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 116 Poster Boy 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 107 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 119 Poster Boy 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 125 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 119 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 126 Poster Boy 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 162 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 122 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 130 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 153 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 128 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 114 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 121 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 121 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 117 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 159 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 141 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 168 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Poster Boy 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 120 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 118 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 116 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 118 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 115 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 119 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 174 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 114 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 111 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 110 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 120 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 119 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 120 Poster Boy 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 122 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 118 Poster Boy 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 115 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 132 Poster Boy 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 121 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 121 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 110 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 117 Poster Boy 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 118 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 133 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 140 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 152 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 127 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 111 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 109 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 109 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 108 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 115 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 118 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 113 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 110 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 142 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 122 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 189 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 151 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 180 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 120 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 115 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 104 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 114 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 134 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 105 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 135 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 109 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 135 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 109 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 107 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 109 Poster Boy 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 114 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 111 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 147 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 117 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 121 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 141 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 113 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 119 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 112 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 110 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 109 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 139 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 109 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 150 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 112 Poster Boy 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 108 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 112 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 113 Poster Boy 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 110 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 117 Poster Boy 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 109 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 144 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 147 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 141 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 179 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 118 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 132 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 122 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 139 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 108 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 112 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 139 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 113 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 109 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 138 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 111 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 129 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 109 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 96 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 109 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 148 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 139 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 109 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 113 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 117 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 115 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 107 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 120 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 115 Poster Boy 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 114 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 124 Poster Boy 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 120 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 119 Poster Boy 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 113 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 116 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 98 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 119 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 117 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 113 Poster Boy 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 144 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 115 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 120 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 116 Poster Boy 31-May-18 17:35
Job 130 Poster Boy 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 131 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 135 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 161 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 211 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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