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"No animals place themselves in danger for no reason, thus all animal violence has a reason - it is always reasoned violence - mating, feeding, territory, self-preservation - all survival 'instincts' and all good reasons."

Having a reason and reasoning are two different things. That which you state as "survival 'instincts' " are indeed good reasons. The difference I am stating is reasoned violence versus instinctual violence. Humans at a basic level do all of those things you stated and for much the same reason. The emotions we have all stem from a basic instinctual source. You see the same emotions in the animal kingdom with mammals. The difference between us however, is that we can chose not to be affected by those emotions if we so desire. This allows us more lattitude in what our choices are. In the face of danger we can chose to fight, cower, hide, sing, dance, jump, suicide...you name it...and we can make a conscious choice of how we will react. Other mammals work out of a need basis that generally stems from a preset number of instinctual responses they are limited to. This may be attributed to intelligence level<basicly saying you are only limited by that which you can imagine> but I don't know for sure.

"Another point is animals don't start wars over beliefs, and it is beliefs that separate us from the animals not reason or emotion. Beliefs are the result of our ability to imagine 'other worlds' (religious or political), they are not real, they are conceptual and, as such, all wars are irrational and unreasonable."

Forming belief structures comes from reasoning. An example would be seeing campfires on a plain and then associating stars as campfires in the heavens that the gods or those that have passed on make. That is intuitive reasoning. Something humans are quite skilled at. Now, animals can reason and do, but it is our penchant to use our reasoning for violence that sets us apart. As you said animals don't start wars over beliefs, I would take that one step further and say that animals don't start wars. They do kill, and they do kill as a group, but they do not systematically destroy those of thier own species on a whim. All wars are not irrational, or unreasonable. From a outsider perspective they may appear to be such, but in most wars, there is a reason for it...and oft times a rational reason. The Iraqi war is a good example, as was the Vietnam War, WWI, WWII, and so on down the list. Very rational reasons for inflicting violence... Now in a war, irrational things do occur, and occur often. That however, does not take away the original premise for the war. In most cases, the truly irrational things that occur, occur from people losing thier reason, and allowing thier emotions to take control of them <instinctual behavior>. Anyhow, while I agree with you partly, I feel that you confuse reasons with reasoning. If you hit me, and I hit you back, I would have a reason to hit you...but would I have used my power of reasoning to hit you? Perhaps, but it just as well could have been a instinctual reflex that required no thought...that is the difference.



&quot;A thing must be understood as certain and true in order to be known without any doubt. But for this reason, that finite knowledge had faults and defects in thy design, therefore hast thou been strangled in thine own doubts&quot; (Paracelsus)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
War is Hell 219 SunSword 03-Jun-06 01:07
Re: War is Hell 130 Gengus 03-Jun-06 03:24
Re: War is Hell 103 RaVaN 03-Jun-06 07:07
Re: War is Hell 139 IanG 03-Jun-06 08:08
Re: War is Hell 133 RaVaN 03-Jun-06 10:15
Re: War is Hell 140 PriorityRed 03-Jun-06 05:08
Re: War is Hell 95 SunSword 03-Jun-06 12:24
Re: War is Hell 109 PriorityRed 03-Jun-06 16:01
Re: War is Hell 118 SunSword 04-Jun-06 01:47
Re: Outcomes 127 Thunderbird 03-Jun-06 17:18
Re: Outcomes 119 Jergat 03-Jun-06 17:47
Re: Outcomes 154 Thunderbird 03-Jun-06 19:24
Kill Gene 112 Citizen Attorney 03-Jun-06 19:34
Re: Kill Gene 96 PriorityRed 03-Jun-06 20:56
Nature/Nurture 115 SunSword 04-Jun-06 13:10
Re: Kill Gene 144 ladyswanca 04-Jun-06 16:34
Re: Kill Gene 116 RaVaN 04-Jun-06 23:52
Re: Kill Gene 120 Hoppy 05-Jun-06 04:05
Re: Kill Gene 118 ladyswanca 05-Jun-06 07:04
Re: Kill Gene 100 Farseeker 05-Jun-06 14:02
Re: Kill Gene 104 ladyswanca 05-Jun-06 16:13
Re: Kill Gene 123 Farseeker 05-Jun-06 16:32
Re: Kill Gene 133 ladyswanca 05-Jun-06 16:54
Re: Kill Gene 157 ladyswanca 05-Jun-06 16:59
Re: Kill Gene 104 Farseeker 05-Jun-06 17:29
Re: Kill Gene 91 Dave Light 06-Jun-06 12:04
Re: War is Hell 132 Hoppy 05-Jun-06 14:34
Re: War is Hell 77 RaVaN 05-Jun-06 23:40
Re: War is Hell 120 Hoppy 06-Jun-06 00:48
Re: War is Hell 118 RaVaN 06-Jun-06 05:03
Re: Headless Heroes 138 PriorityRed 05-Jun-06 23:51
Re: Headless Heroes 132 Hoppy 06-Jun-06 00:51
Re: War is Hell 104 phoboskitty 06-Jun-06 10:51
Re: War is Hell 144 phoboskitty 06-Jun-06 11:01
Re: War is Hell 176 Aarooga 06-Jun-06 13:13


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