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Martin Stower wrote:

> Really? Perhaps I should start “cleaning up” my images — but
> then I know that “cleaning” presupposes a judgement on what is
> and what it not legitimately present and in that judgement the
> entire issue is judged.

Yes, "really". I think the context of what I meant by "cleaning up" is clear.

> Perhaps you could explain why we don’t see this “pen trail”
> (first horizontal line) in the second circle, if Vyse was so
> prone to it? Or, for that matter, in the empty circles on the
> page?

Where did I say he was "prone" to it? It looks to me as if one was drawn with a little more care than the other with the circle in question, also given its relative size and insignificant placement on the page, more consistent with a random thought or "doodle". His penmanship is beautiful and his drawings suck. He is sketching in a notebook, not using autocad, so pen trails, double lines, wavy lines, ect would be typical particularly with this kind of pen.

>

>
>

>
> Only once do we see this “pen trail”.

No. You can see one on the bottom right on the lower circle as well as those in the cartouches, though obviously not as extreme, but the circle in question, again, is more of a throwaway "doodle".

> That suggests to me
> that Vyse was not prone to accidental “pen trails” in his
> circles at all — that where we see lines, he put them in
> deliberately.

I disagree. There are numerous "accidental" mistakes in all of his drawings as would be expected from someone who apparently is no artist sketching with a nibbed fountain pen in particular.

> I have to say also that the slant of his writing isn’t
> obviously suggestive of his having been left-handed.

Why not? My handwriting slants forward. His circles appear to be left handed. I need a right handed person to test this, but from the looks of it his circles start and stop at the same place mine do.

> > You can also see that the bottom "horizontal line" is
> connected to the
> > center "dot"" by a pen trail and is not a separate line but
> rather an
> > artifact of drawing the dot.

> Actually, no, I can’t see that, certainly not clearly.

I can.

> I’m
> more inclined to see a pen trail here than I am in the case of
> the first horizontal line, but what I see is more suggestive of
> hesitancy than a dot. (He managed to dot his i’s and j’s with
> no obvious sign of difficulty.)

As I said, just quickly draw a circle and this "curlycue" is exactly where it would be as is the termination point for all of his circles. There is a big difference between "dotting ones i's and j's", particularly with this kind of pen, and drawing a filled in circle which we are only referring to as a "dot" for convenience. When one wants to "dot an i" it is merely a tap of the pen. When one wants to draw a filled in circle with this kind of pen in particular it is much easier and safer to go back and forth side to side instead of in a circle as the nib digs into the paper on the upturn. I am not making up an argument from nothing, these are just some of the tricks and/or haphazards of drawing with these pens.

> I see him drawing the circle, drawing the first horizontal
> line, starting on the second, realising that the circle really
> isn’t big enough and starting again below.

I see a hastily drawn doodle which he follows through at the top of the circle and trails the pen straight across. The "dot" is made by quickly moving the pen back and forth and the mark below it is a trail and impact from the last line. And honestly, just looking at the two, if they were meant to be one and the same why is the top one so poorly defined while the other is plain as day?

Again, I am 100% certain a handwriting expert could easily clear this up. I have been drawing my whole life and have worked professionally in the past as a cartoonist and when I look at his drawings I see very common pen line artifacts of drawing with ink, particularly with a nib. Just looking at it and drawing the same things quickly I can easily "accidentally" reproduce both the top line and the bottom line from the dot.

> What I don’t see is anything which even begins to justify the
> hype about this being a “historic discovery” and “damning”
> evidence. Damning? I wouldn’t issue a caution on evidence
> this thin.

I am not arguing with you about that, or anything else that rubs you wrong about Scott, I am just telling you what I see in that circle. If this is some "sinister plot" or "historic discovery" I am none the wiser, but regardless the drawing in question does look like a scribbled circle with a dot with common accidental artifacts.

If we did want to have this looked at by a handwriting expert is there a "Stower approved" scan you can post here of a good viewable size?



Post Edited (27-May-14 22:37)

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Further comments on Creighton’s article [Thread Closed] 909 Martin Stower 23-May-14 00:06
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 503 drew 23-May-14 04:09
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 604 Martin Stower 23-May-14 09:32
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 585 Skatha 23-May-14 04:46
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 541 Martin Stower 24-May-14 19:11
Desperate 501 LonelyAngel 23-May-14 13:11
Re: Desperate 584 Martin Stower 23-May-14 13:46
Mod Note > LonelyAngel – Reminder 607 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-14 17:19
Re: Desperate 530 eyeofhorus33 23-May-14 17:56
Re: Desperate 568 Martin Stower 23-May-14 23:12
Re: Desperate 561 LonelyAngel 25-May-14 14:15
Re: Desperate 531 Brian Patterson 25-May-14 15:30
Re: Desperate 548 Martin Stower 25-May-14 15:48
Re: Desperate 523 Ahatmose 25-May-14 16:04
Re: Desperate 488 Martin Stower 25-May-14 16:56
Re: Desperate 621 Ahatmose 25-May-14 17:13
Re: Desperate 566 LonelyAngel 25-May-14 20:24
Re: Desperate 586 Martin Stower 26-May-14 00:19
Re: Desperate 518 cladking 25-May-14 22:30
Re: Desperate 466 eyeofhorus33 25-May-14 17:13
Re: Desperate 511 LonelyAngel 25-May-14 20:51
Re: Desperate 573 Martin Stower 25-May-14 22:47
Re: Desperate 494 eyeofhorus33 26-May-14 08:35
Further comments II 1056 Martin Stower 24-May-14 18:20
Re: Further comments II 501 Thanos5150 24-May-14 19:31
Re: Further comments II 514 Martin Stower 24-May-14 19:51
Re: Further comments II 543 Thanos5150 25-May-14 01:35
Re: Further comments II 476 drew 25-May-14 03:47
Re: Further comments II 571 eyeofhorus33 25-May-14 10:01
Re: Further comments II 521 Martin Stower 25-May-14 12:05
Re: Further comments II 570 Martin Stower 25-May-14 12:01
Further comments III 973 Martin Stower 26-May-14 02:14
Re: Further comments III 549 Thanos5150 27-May-14 17:06
Re: Further comments III 550 Martin Stower 27-May-14 19:12
Re: Further comments III 530 Thanos5150 27-May-14 22:34
Re: Further comments III 506 Martin Stower 27-May-14 22:52
Re: Further comments III 552 Dr. Troglodyte 27-May-14 23:04
Re: Further comments III 534 Thanos5150 27-May-14 23:23
Re: Further comments III 510 Martin Stower 27-May-14 23:44
Re: Further comments III 504 Thanos5150 27-May-14 23:54
Re: Further comments III 534 Martin Stower 28-May-14 00:08
Re: Further comments III 510 Thanos5150 28-May-14 00:59
Re: Further comments III 553 Martin Stower 29-May-14 00:00
Re: Further comments III 572 Skatha 30-May-14 00:16
Re: Further comments III 511 Martin Stower 30-May-14 09:57
Re: Further comments III 539 Thanos5150 30-May-14 17:43
Re: Further comments III 562 randompHactor 30-May-14 18:17
Re: Further comments III 451 Martin Stower 30-May-14 19:25
Re: Further comments III 530 Thanos5150 30-May-14 20:21
Re: Further comments III 522 Martin Stower 30-May-14 20:43
Re: Further comments III 498 Thanos5150 30-May-14 20:56
Re: Further comments III 854 Martin Stower 30-May-14 21:15
Re: Further comments III 577 Thanos5150 31-May-14 00:28
Re: Further comments III 524 AmadeusD 31-May-14 02:42
Re: Further comments III 555 Martin Stower 31-May-14 07:56
Re: Further comments III 501 sfbey 30-May-14 21:16
Re: Further comments III 548 Dr. Troglodyte 30-May-14 20:12
Re: Further comments III 578 Audrey 30-May-14 05:34
Re: Further comments III 524 Martin Stower 30-May-14 09:25
Re: Further comments III 549 Martin Stower 27-May-14 22:35
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 583 D-Archer 27-May-14 19:15
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 572 Martin Stower 27-May-14 19:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 543 D-Archer 27-May-14 19:32
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 572 Martin Stower 27-May-14 22:29
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 585 D-Archer 28-May-14 10:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 652 Martin Stower 28-May-14 13:10
Drawn...and quartered : ) 522 Thunderbird 30-May-14 03:52
Re: Drawn...and quartered : ) 557 Martin Stower 30-May-14 12:49
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 559 k_mand 30-May-14 16:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 557 Martin Stower 30-May-14 19:31
What have you missed? 497 Thunderbird 30-May-14 22:49
Re: What have you missed? 589 Martin Stower 30-May-14 23:09
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 565 k_mand 31-May-14 04:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 509 Martin Stower 31-May-14 08:17
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 516 k_mand 01-Jun-14 02:21
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 461 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 10:38
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 517 Thanos5150 01-Jun-14 17:01
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 508 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 19:02
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 543 Thanos5150 02-Jun-14 02:26
The cult of Khufu 579 Thunderbird 02-Jun-14 03:40
I’d buy that for a dollar! 524 Martin Stower 30-May-14 21:53
Not worth it ... 642 Ahatmose 31-May-14 01:55
Re: Not worth it ... 571 Brian Patterson 31-May-14 04:04
The Mud Slinging Has Started 515 Scott Creighton 31-May-14 09:17
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 613 Ahatmose 31-May-14 11:47
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 516 Scott Creighton 31-May-14 12:00
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 531 Martin Stower 31-May-14 12:45
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 515 Ahatmose 31-May-14 23:14
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 503 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 00:54
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 572 Audrey 01-Jun-14 05:04
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 550 Thunderbird 01-Jun-14 06:06
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 446 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 10:35
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 556 Audrey 01-Jun-14 17:43
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 536 eyeofhorus33 01-Jun-14 19:35
Follow the cult follow the... 416 Thunderbird 01-Jun-14 21:11
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 551 Audrey 03-Jun-14 03:54
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 561 eyeofhorus33 03-Jun-14 22:33
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 560 Audrey 05-Jun-14 02:07
Re: The Ring of the gods 570 Thunderbird 04-Jun-14 15:55
Re: The Ring of the gods 532 Audrey 05-Jun-14 05:36
Re: Mystery of the Gods 482 Thunderbird 02-Jun-14 01:39
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 568 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 10:33
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 516 Audrey 01-Jun-14 19:38
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 590 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 20:44
Arches and Chambers 465 loveritas 01-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Arches and Chambers 564 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 00:03
Definitely Puzzled 550 loveritas 02-Jun-14 11:30
Re: Definitely Puzzled 528 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 13:05
Re: Definitely Puzzled 476 Audrey 03-Jun-14 01:38
Re: Definitely Puzzled 533 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 01:56
Re: Definitely Puzzled 570 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 10:40
Re: Definitely Puzzled 560 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 11:21
Re: Definitely Puzzled 617 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 13:02
Re: Definitely Puzzled 557 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 13:34
Re: Definitely Puzzled 510 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 13:56
Re: Definitely Puzzled 522 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 14:03
How it really happened 1279 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 16:15
Re: How it really happened 614 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 17:25
Re: How it really happened 709 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 20:18
Re: Definitely Puzzled 537 Audrey 05-Jun-14 01:54
Re: Definitely Puzzled 543 Merrell 03-Jun-14 07:41
Re: Definitely Puzzled 513 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 10:32
Re: Definitely Puzzled 561 loveritas 03-Jun-14 11:12
Re: Definitely Puzzled 559 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 13:05
Re: Definitely Puzzled 528 loveritas 03-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Arches and Chambers 513 Merrell 02-Jun-14 11:36
Re: Arches and Chambers 542 Dr. Troglodyte 02-Jun-14 16:40
Re: Arches and Chambers 503 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 18:02
Re: Arches and Chambers 565 Dr. Troglodyte 02-Jun-14 18:29
Re: Arches and Chambers 521 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 20:46
Re: Forced entry 517 Thunderbird 02-Jun-14 06:31
Going Inside The Pyramid 561 loveritas 02-Jun-14 12:07
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 527 Audrey 01-Jun-14 23:08
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 538 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 00:02
Medjedu 571 loveritas 04-Jun-14 11:39
Wilkinson? 534 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 00:25
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 650 Martin Stower 31-May-14 12:44
Perring and Vyse 863 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 00:33
Reference marks 585 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 14:01
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 542 Brian Patterson 03-Jun-14 04:06
Mod Warning > Messrs. Creighton and Stower 504 Dr. Troglodyte 03-Jun-14 16:51
How it really happened 505 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 16:54
From caption to self-contradiction 529 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 22:38
Why the drawings? 959 Martin Stower 04-Jun-14 22:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 566 DUNE 04-Jun-14 22:46
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 502 sfbey 04-Jun-14 23:02
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 625 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 08:50
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 523 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 09:42
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 605 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 10:08
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 552 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 10:59
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 550 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 11:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 492 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 11:42
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 557 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 11:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 535 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 12:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 486 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 12:16
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 570 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 12:27
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 501 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 12:30
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 560 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 12:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 547 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 12:56
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 530 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 13:49
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 484 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 14:05
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 574 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:12
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 547 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 15:22
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 490 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:32
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 508 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 15:45
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 500 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:50
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 504 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 15:52
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 568 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:02
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 569 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 16:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 433 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:38
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 518 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 16:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 570 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:56
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 492 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 17:02
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 557 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 17:18
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 502 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 17:23
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 513 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 17:27
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 549 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 17:29
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 546 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 17:51
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 515 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 17:55
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 569 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 18:16
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 510 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 18:21
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 454 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:23
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 549 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:29
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 555 eyeofhorus33 05-Jun-14 17:45
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 510 cladking 05-Jun-14 16:11
Re: Ping for Audrey and Loveritas 496 Thunderbird 05-Jun-14 19:11
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 499 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 14:20
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 493 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 14:32
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 464 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:30
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 490 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 15:40
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 409 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:45
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 411 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:01
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 540 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:33
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 494 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:42
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 497 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 522 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:45
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 560 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:53
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 542 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 17:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 540 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 17:44
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 446 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:03
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 593 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 18:18
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 575 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:21
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 503 Audrey 05-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 580 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 21:37
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 466 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 591 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 693 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 23:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 640 Martin Stower 06-Jun-14 11:44
Mod Warning #2 > Scott Creighton 526 lukehancock 06-Jun-14 14:51
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 493 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 20:22
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 472 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 18:10
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 463 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:19
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 535 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 21:10
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 511 Audrey 05-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 557 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 21:47
Mod Warning #3 > Ahatmose 516 lukehancock 06-Jun-14 14:50
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 524 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:06
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 475 Martin Stower 04-Jun-14 23:20
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 618 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 10:01
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 583 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 11:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 549 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 11:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 739 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 11:39
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 447 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 11:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 542 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 12:00
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 535 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 12:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 522 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 14:34
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 448 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 14:58
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 529 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:10
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 474 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 16:13
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 525 eyeofhorus33 05-Jun-14 18:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 533 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 21:17


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