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Martin Stower wrote:

> Really? Perhaps I should start “cleaning up” my images — but
> then I know that “cleaning” presupposes a judgement on what is
> and what it not legitimately present and in that judgement the
> entire issue is judged.

Yes, "really". I think the context of what I meant by "cleaning up" is clear.

> Perhaps you could explain why we don’t see this “pen trail”
> (first horizontal line) in the second circle, if Vyse was so
> prone to it? Or, for that matter, in the empty circles on the
> page?

Where did I say he was "prone" to it? It looks to me as if one was drawn with a little more care than the other with the circle in question, also given its relative size and insignificant placement on the page, more consistent with a random thought or "doodle". His penmanship is beautiful and his drawings suck. He is sketching in a notebook, not using autocad, so pen trails, double lines, wavy lines, ect would be typical particularly with this kind of pen.

>

>
>

>
> Only once do we see this “pen trail”.

No. You can see one on the bottom right on the lower circle as well as those in the cartouches, though obviously not as extreme, but the circle in question, again, is more of a throwaway "doodle".

> That suggests to me
> that Vyse was not prone to accidental “pen trails” in his
> circles at all — that where we see lines, he put them in
> deliberately.

I disagree. There are numerous "accidental" mistakes in all of his drawings as would be expected from someone who apparently is no artist sketching with a nibbed fountain pen in particular.

> I have to say also that the slant of his writing isn’t
> obviously suggestive of his having been left-handed.

Why not? My handwriting slants forward. His circles appear to be left handed. I need a right handed person to test this, but from the looks of it his circles start and stop at the same place mine do.

> > You can also see that the bottom "horizontal line" is
> connected to the
> > center "dot"" by a pen trail and is not a separate line but
> rather an
> > artifact of drawing the dot.

> Actually, no, I can’t see that, certainly not clearly.

I can.

> I’m
> more inclined to see a pen trail here than I am in the case of
> the first horizontal line, but what I see is more suggestive of
> hesitancy than a dot. (He managed to dot his i’s and j’s with
> no obvious sign of difficulty.)

As I said, just quickly draw a circle and this "curlycue" is exactly where it would be as is the termination point for all of his circles. There is a big difference between "dotting ones i's and j's", particularly with this kind of pen, and drawing a filled in circle which we are only referring to as a "dot" for convenience. When one wants to "dot an i" it is merely a tap of the pen. When one wants to draw a filled in circle with this kind of pen in particular it is much easier and safer to go back and forth side to side instead of in a circle as the nib digs into the paper on the upturn. I am not making up an argument from nothing, these are just some of the tricks and/or haphazards of drawing with these pens.

> I see him drawing the circle, drawing the first horizontal
> line, starting on the second, realising that the circle really
> isn’t big enough and starting again below.

I see a hastily drawn doodle which he follows through at the top of the circle and trails the pen straight across. The "dot" is made by quickly moving the pen back and forth and the mark below it is a trail and impact from the last line. And honestly, just looking at the two, if they were meant to be one and the same why is the top one so poorly defined while the other is plain as day?

Again, I am 100% certain a handwriting expert could easily clear this up. I have been drawing my whole life and have worked professionally in the past as a cartoonist and when I look at his drawings I see very common pen line artifacts of drawing with ink, particularly with a nib. Just looking at it and drawing the same things quickly I can easily "accidentally" reproduce both the top line and the bottom line from the dot.

> What I don’t see is anything which even begins to justify the
> hype about this being a “historic discovery” and “damning”
> evidence. Damning? I wouldn’t issue a caution on evidence
> this thin.

I am not arguing with you about that, or anything else that rubs you wrong about Scott, I am just telling you what I see in that circle. If this is some "sinister plot" or "historic discovery" I am none the wiser, but regardless the drawing in question does look like a scribbled circle with a dot with common accidental artifacts.

If we did want to have this looked at by a handwriting expert is there a "Stower approved" scan you can post here of a good viewable size?



Post Edited (27-May-14 22:37)

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Further comments on Creighton’s article [Thread Closed] 850 Martin Stower 23-May-14 00:06
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 461 drew 23-May-14 04:09
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 549 Martin Stower 23-May-14 09:32
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 534 Skatha 23-May-14 04:46
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 483 Martin Stower 24-May-14 19:11
Desperate 451 LonelyAngel 23-May-14 13:11
Re: Desperate 538 Martin Stower 23-May-14 13:46
Mod Note > LonelyAngel – Reminder 564 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-14 17:19
Re: Desperate 486 eyeofhorus33 23-May-14 17:56
Re: Desperate 522 Martin Stower 23-May-14 23:12
Re: Desperate 523 LonelyAngel 25-May-14 14:15
Re: Desperate 492 Brian Patterson 25-May-14 15:30
Re: Desperate 479 Martin Stower 25-May-14 15:48
Re: Desperate 479 Ahatmose 25-May-14 16:04
Re: Desperate 443 Martin Stower 25-May-14 16:56
Re: Desperate 576 Ahatmose 25-May-14 17:13
Re: Desperate 524 LonelyAngel 25-May-14 20:24
Re: Desperate 544 Martin Stower 26-May-14 00:19
Re: Desperate 478 cladking 25-May-14 22:30
Re: Desperate 423 eyeofhorus33 25-May-14 17:13
Re: Desperate 470 LonelyAngel 25-May-14 20:51
Re: Desperate 534 Martin Stower 25-May-14 22:47
Re: Desperate 450 eyeofhorus33 26-May-14 08:35
Further comments II 967 Martin Stower 24-May-14 18:20
Re: Further comments II 459 Thanos5150 24-May-14 19:31
Re: Further comments II 458 Martin Stower 24-May-14 19:51
Re: Further comments II 501 Thanos5150 25-May-14 01:35
Re: Further comments II 438 drew 25-May-14 03:47
Re: Further comments II 519 eyeofhorus33 25-May-14 10:01
Re: Further comments II 479 Martin Stower 25-May-14 12:05
Re: Further comments II 507 Martin Stower 25-May-14 12:01
Further comments III 891 Martin Stower 26-May-14 02:14
Re: Further comments III 503 Thanos5150 27-May-14 17:06
Re: Further comments III 511 Martin Stower 27-May-14 19:12
Re: Further comments III 484 Thanos5150 27-May-14 22:34
Re: Further comments III 452 Martin Stower 27-May-14 22:52
Re: Further comments III 513 Dr. Troglodyte 27-May-14 23:04
Re: Further comments III 492 Thanos5150 27-May-14 23:23
Re: Further comments III 463 Martin Stower 27-May-14 23:44
Re: Further comments III 463 Thanos5150 27-May-14 23:54
Re: Further comments III 494 Martin Stower 28-May-14 00:08
Re: Further comments III 468 Thanos5150 28-May-14 00:59
Re: Further comments III 493 Martin Stower 29-May-14 00:00
Re: Further comments III 530 Skatha 30-May-14 00:16
Re: Further comments III 470 Martin Stower 30-May-14 09:57
Re: Further comments III 482 Thanos5150 30-May-14 17:43
Re: Further comments III 521 randompHactor 30-May-14 18:17
Re: Further comments III 411 Martin Stower 30-May-14 19:25
Re: Further comments III 489 Thanos5150 30-May-14 20:21
Re: Further comments III 480 Martin Stower 30-May-14 20:43
Re: Further comments III 454 Thanos5150 30-May-14 20:56
Re: Further comments III 789 Martin Stower 30-May-14 21:15
Re: Further comments III 534 Thanos5150 31-May-14 00:28
Re: Further comments III 478 AmadeusD 31-May-14 02:42
Re: Further comments III 514 Martin Stower 31-May-14 07:56
Re: Further comments III 460 sfbey 30-May-14 21:16
Re: Further comments III 509 Dr. Troglodyte 30-May-14 20:12
Re: Further comments III 536 Audrey 30-May-14 05:34
Re: Further comments III 481 Martin Stower 30-May-14 09:25
Re: Further comments III 508 Martin Stower 27-May-14 22:35
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 544 D-Archer 27-May-14 19:15
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 529 Martin Stower 27-May-14 19:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 498 D-Archer 27-May-14 19:32
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 526 Martin Stower 27-May-14 22:29
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 543 D-Archer 28-May-14 10:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 597 Martin Stower 28-May-14 13:10
Drawn...and quartered : ) 482 Thunderbird 30-May-14 03:52
Re: Drawn...and quartered : ) 517 Martin Stower 30-May-14 12:49
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 517 k_mand 30-May-14 16:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 514 Martin Stower 30-May-14 19:31
What have you missed? 456 Thunderbird 30-May-14 22:49
Re: What have you missed? 547 Martin Stower 30-May-14 23:09
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 522 k_mand 31-May-14 04:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 465 Martin Stower 31-May-14 08:17
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 472 k_mand 01-Jun-14 02:21
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 421 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 10:38
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 478 Thanos5150 01-Jun-14 17:01
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 466 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 19:02
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 491 Thanos5150 02-Jun-14 02:26
The cult of Khufu 538 Thunderbird 02-Jun-14 03:40
I’d buy that for a dollar! 472 Martin Stower 30-May-14 21:53
Not worth it ... 600 Ahatmose 31-May-14 01:55
Re: Not worth it ... 501 Brian Patterson 31-May-14 04:04
The Mud Slinging Has Started 472 Scott Creighton 31-May-14 09:17
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 555 Ahatmose 31-May-14 11:47
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 473 Scott Creighton 31-May-14 12:00
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 487 Martin Stower 31-May-14 12:45
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 472 Ahatmose 31-May-14 23:14
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 446 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 00:54
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 529 Audrey 01-Jun-14 05:04
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 508 Thunderbird 01-Jun-14 06:06
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 407 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 10:35
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 515 Audrey 01-Jun-14 17:43
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 495 eyeofhorus33 01-Jun-14 19:35
Follow the cult follow the... 379 Thunderbird 01-Jun-14 21:11
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 502 Audrey 03-Jun-14 03:54
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 521 eyeofhorus33 03-Jun-14 22:33
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 514 Audrey 05-Jun-14 02:07
Re: The Ring of the gods 497 Thunderbird 04-Jun-14 15:55
Re: The Ring of the gods 473 Audrey 05-Jun-14 05:36
Re: Mystery of the Gods 438 Thunderbird 02-Jun-14 01:39
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 525 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 10:33
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 477 Audrey 01-Jun-14 19:38
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 550 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 20:44
Arches and Chambers 421 loveritas 01-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Arches and Chambers 524 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 00:03
Definitely Puzzled 510 loveritas 02-Jun-14 11:30
Re: Definitely Puzzled 462 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 13:05
Re: Definitely Puzzled 437 Audrey 03-Jun-14 01:38
Re: Definitely Puzzled 482 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 01:56
Re: Definitely Puzzled 513 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 10:40
Re: Definitely Puzzled 506 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 11:21
Re: Definitely Puzzled 573 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 13:02
Re: Definitely Puzzled 509 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 13:34
Re: Definitely Puzzled 466 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 13:56
Re: Definitely Puzzled 483 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 14:03
How it really happened 1168 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 16:15
Re: How it really happened 570 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 17:25
Re: How it really happened 629 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 20:18
Re: Definitely Puzzled 489 Audrey 05-Jun-14 01:54
Re: Definitely Puzzled 497 Merrell 03-Jun-14 07:41
Re: Definitely Puzzled 458 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 10:32
Re: Definitely Puzzled 508 loveritas 03-Jun-14 11:12
Re: Definitely Puzzled 516 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 13:05
Re: Definitely Puzzled 464 loveritas 03-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Arches and Chambers 463 Merrell 02-Jun-14 11:36
Re: Arches and Chambers 499 Dr. Troglodyte 02-Jun-14 16:40
Re: Arches and Chambers 452 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 18:02
Re: Arches and Chambers 500 Dr. Troglodyte 02-Jun-14 18:29
Re: Arches and Chambers 477 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 20:46
Re: Forced entry 478 Thunderbird 02-Jun-14 06:31
Going Inside The Pyramid 521 loveritas 02-Jun-14 12:07
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 487 Audrey 01-Jun-14 23:08
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 497 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 00:02
Medjedu 498 loveritas 04-Jun-14 11:39
Wilkinson? 494 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 00:25
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 602 Martin Stower 31-May-14 12:44
Perring and Vyse 793 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 00:33
Reference marks 546 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 14:01
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 495 Brian Patterson 03-Jun-14 04:06
Mod Warning > Messrs. Creighton and Stower 463 Dr. Troglodyte 03-Jun-14 16:51
How it really happened 465 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 16:54
From caption to self-contradiction 485 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 22:38
Why the drawings? 896 Martin Stower 04-Jun-14 22:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 525 DUNE 04-Jun-14 22:46
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 460 sfbey 04-Jun-14 23:02
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 578 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 08:50
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 447 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 09:42
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 529 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 10:08
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 506 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 10:59
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 509 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 11:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 452 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 11:42
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 516 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 11:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 488 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 12:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 447 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 12:16
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 525 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 12:27
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 454 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 12:30
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 522 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 12:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 509 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 12:56
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 492 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 13:49
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 442 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 14:05
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 526 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:12
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 507 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 15:22
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 453 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:32
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 460 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 15:45
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 459 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:50
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 465 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 15:52
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 528 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:02
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 518 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 16:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 395 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:38
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 477 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 16:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 523 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:56
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 455 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 17:02
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 517 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 17:18
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 455 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 17:23
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 473 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 17:27
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 509 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 17:29
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 493 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 17:51
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 475 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 17:55
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 530 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 18:16
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 470 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 18:21
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 412 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:23
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 509 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:29
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 516 eyeofhorus33 05-Jun-14 17:45
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 472 cladking 05-Jun-14 16:11
Re: Ping for Audrey and Loveritas 438 Thunderbird 05-Jun-14 19:11
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 458 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 14:20
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 454 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 14:32
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 426 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:30
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 452 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 15:40
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 371 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:45
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 367 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:01
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 504 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:33
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 457 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:42
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 454 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 483 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:45
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 522 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:53
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 500 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 17:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 482 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 17:44
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 408 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:03
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 525 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 18:18
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 527 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:21
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 455 Audrey 05-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 522 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 21:37
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 416 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 533 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 652 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 23:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 591 Martin Stower 06-Jun-14 11:44
Mod Warning #2 > Scott Creighton 490 lukehancock 06-Jun-14 14:51
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 435 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 20:22
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 434 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 18:10
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 424 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:19
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 476 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 21:10
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 473 Audrey 05-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 519 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 21:47
Mod Warning #3 > Ahatmose 458 lukehancock 06-Jun-14 14:50
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 479 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:06
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 435 Martin Stower 04-Jun-14 23:20
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 572 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 10:01
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 539 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 11:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 501 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 11:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 696 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 11:39
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 407 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 11:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 502 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 12:00
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 492 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 12:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 481 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 14:34
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 409 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 14:58
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 476 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:10
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 407 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 16:13
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 488 eyeofhorus33 05-Jun-14 18:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 496 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 21:17


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