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Pete Vanderzwet wrote:

> Why would you expect a significant 4th dynasty mortuary context
> at Giza, when the site was essentially virgin at the time of
> Khufu's pyramid construction?

I do not believe the Giza plateau was "virgin" at the time of Khufu's reign, for one.

But regardless:
Quote

Specifically, the organized development of cemeteries at Giza are mostly believed to be due to the efforts of Khufu, who had these tombs laid out methodically in "streets" and avenues", and aligned to the axis of his pyramid complex. In fact, scholars believe that Khufu laid out these orderly cemeteries to the east and west of his pyramid in what may have been the world's first example of prefabricated construction, with the assignment of specific tombs to specific individuals only occurring afterwards. Hence, while tourists to Giza are awed by the efforts required to build his Great Pyramid, few realize that at the same time construction was taking place all about this monument.

Egyptologists believe the AE did not wait to build cemeteries until each pyramid was completed and only after the fact did they bury people as you are suggesting, but rather they were pre-made and ready for burial during the time of each pyramids construction. Therefore, what we would expect to find is a plethora of tombs occupied in situ as needed throughout the 4th Dynasty regardless of whether or not the pyramid was completed, like what is attested there from the 5th Dynasty, but this is not what is found.

Also, despite the fact Egyptologists believe Khufu built the West and East cemeteries concurrently with G1, which we can assume were mostly if not all completed in earnest well before G1 was finished if Egyptologists are correct, the West field is made up of almost all 5th-6th Dynasty burials? It makes little sense Khufu would have built the West field only to go unoccupied by his immediate successors being filled with 5th and 6th Dynasty burials instead.

Also, possibly more telling, is that when and if what pyramid was completed when and by whom would be irrelevant to the so called "cemetery of the pyramid workers" which also dates to the 5th Dynasty. Especially when we consider the relatively short lifespan of the average Egyptian of 35yrs, with no doubt pyramid workers being at the bottom rung of this ladder, if your reasoning were correct we would expect at the very least to find scads of 4th Dynasty pyramid worker burials there from the very beginnings, but again this is clearly not the case as they all date to the 5th Dynasty as well.

Another thing to consider are the G1 satellite pyramids. If we accept these were originally intended as tombs, obviously reserved for the most important people behind Khufu, completing these would have been of paramount importance as well and one of the first projects started. This is a little hard to swallow considering the separate effort required given these pyramids were as much as 100ft tall themselves, as well as the rather rude fashion in which they are stuffed into the overall plan only narrowly avoiding such things that presumably weren't even there yet like the temple, which we assume would have been built last, and the causeway, suggesting the satellite pyramids were built after the fact.

Worth noting is that though not directly adjacent to any pyramid, at the South cemetery there are several 2nd and 3rd Dynasty burials which show Giza was already a burial site well before the 4th Dynasty. More importantly, however, there are at least two tombs at G2's Central cemetery, namely those attributed to Khentkawes and Kai, that highly likely date to the 2nd or 3rd Dynasties if not earlier as well.

> In understanding the ancient
> Egyptians, what we have at Giza is pretty much what you would
> expect. Close family and some officials. There were already
> established funerary anchors at other nearby sites, such as
> Saqqara, Meidum, Dashour, or even Abydos. It's not until the
> Giza site established a culture of ritual legitimacy that more
> burials were included there in the later 5th and 6th dynasties.

The reigns of Khufu through Menkaure spanned at least nearly 90yrs in which we are told construction on the Giza plateau started on the first day and stopped shortly after the last. 90yrs in the life of an Egyptian represents at least 3 generations of lifespans and would supposedly have been the epicenter of the entire nations economy and social and religious structure. It is safe to say there was more than enough time for Giza to have established its "culture of ritual legitimacy" not to mention this would have been established whether people liked it or not by Khufu's decree, a living god, from day one. But it wasn't. They also did not spend 90yrs building these things for the primary benefit of the next few generations that followed only to claim a pittance for themselves and give the rest away.

While of course it stands to reason later generations would have a presence there, like the 6th Dynasty does, what would not be expected is that the Dynasty the site is attributed to would have so little; not only by comparison but relative to the size and scope of the task. Giza as a whole was as great or greater of an endeavor than Sakkara, Meidum, and Dashour combined and yet the people that supposedly built it are the least represented not to mention the last and "poorest" pharaoh of the three is by far the most dominant presence at the site? Sorry, not buying it.

> It's a pretty natural progression if you ask me. There is a
> significant royal presence for Khufu's court near his pyramid.

And yet no "presence" to be found he actually built it.

"Dynasties" are a modern artificial construction with no historical value other than what we give it. In reality there is nothing to say that Menkaure was in fact not representative of the end of the 4th Dynasty, but rather as I believe, the "beginning of the 5th" where the last of the Giza renovations began. It is his presence that now dominates Giza as well as the 5th Dynasty that directly follows him, not Khufu or Khafre. If in fact Khufu and Khafre were as great of pharaohs as they supposedly must have been to do the works they did, if true it is hard to believe Menkaure and the 5th Dynasty would stand so far above them in the archaeological record at Giza.



Post Edited (25-Feb-14 04:38)

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"Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 1387 Thanos5150 07-Feb-14 02:20
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 398 cladking 07-Feb-14 02:36
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 392 Thanos5150 07-Feb-14 02:46
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 337 Misterx 07-Feb-14 05:58
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 382 cladking 07-Feb-14 20:56
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 388 Chris Jordan 07-Feb-14 15:44
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 369 Pete Vanderzwet 07-Feb-14 15:46
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 383 Thanos5150 07-Feb-14 18:28
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 354 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 12:58
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 357 Thanos5150 24-Feb-14 22:20
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 370 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 22:33
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 412 Thanos5150 25-Feb-14 03:20
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 317 Pete Vanderzwet 25-Feb-14 11:32
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 363 Thanos5150 25-Feb-14 19:04
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 365 Pete Vanderzwet 26-Feb-14 11:53
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 383 Thanos5150 26-Feb-14 22:11
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 345 Pete Vanderzwet 27-Feb-14 12:53
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 406 Thanos5150 27-Feb-14 18:54
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 319 Pete Vanderzwet 28-Feb-14 13:17
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 440 Thanos5150 01-Mar-14 06:13
Thanks for the post. 349 cladking 01-Mar-14 20:44
Re: Thanks for the post. 384 Thanos5150 02-Mar-14 00:16
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 331 Thanos5150 02-Mar-14 00:14
Great Post! 403 loveritas 02-Mar-14 01:17
Re: Great Post! 332 Thanos5150 02-Mar-14 01:56
Re: Great Post! 405 Ratcho 02-Mar-14 19:15
Re: Great Post! 367 Thanos5150 03-Mar-14 23:14
Re: Great Post! 364 Ratcho 04-Mar-14 06:23
Re: Great Post! 370 Thanos5150 04-Mar-14 17:37
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 418 Thanos5150 08-Mar-14 06:28
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 390 Thanos5150 28-Feb-14 00:00
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 387 Pete Vanderzwet 28-Feb-14 13:20
A few thoughts 323 Skatha 07-Feb-14 16:53
Re: A few thoughts 380 Thanos5150 07-Feb-14 18:22
Re: A few thoughts 341 Dr. Troglodyte 08-Feb-14 00:35
Re: A few thoughts 460 Thanos5150 08-Feb-14 05:49
Re: A few thoughts 404 Dr. Troglodyte 09-Feb-14 00:51
Re: A few thoughts 399 Thanos5150 09-Feb-14 02:34
Re: A few thoughts 372 Skatha 08-Feb-14 18:21
Re: A few thoughts 352 Thanos5150 08-Feb-14 21:42
Re: A few thoughts 448 Skatha 09-Feb-14 02:34
Re: A few thoughts 404 Thanos5150 09-Feb-14 03:20
Re: A few thoughts 344 Skatha 09-Feb-14 18:54
Re: A few thoughts 379 Ratcho 09-Feb-14 19:10
Re: A few thoughts 286 Skatha 09-Feb-14 20:47
Re: A few thoughts 314 cladking 09-Feb-14 21:58
Re: A few thoughts 362 Skatha 10-Feb-14 06:14
Re: A few thoughts 357 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 12:58
Re: A few thoughts 355 cladking 24-Feb-14 16:08
Re: A few thoughts 378 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 16:23
Re: A few thoughts 376 cladking 24-Feb-14 21:42
Re: A few thoughts 336 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 22:21
Re: A few thoughts 345 cladking 24-Feb-14 23:03
Re: A few thoughts 395 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 23:27
Re: A few thoughts 388 cladking 24-Feb-14 23:46
Re: A few thoughts 767 Pete Vanderzwet 25-Feb-14 00:38
Re: A few thoughts 388 cladking 25-Feb-14 01:35
Re: A few thoughts 390 Pete Vanderzwet 25-Feb-14 11:44
Re: A few thoughts 374 cladking 25-Feb-14 15:53
Re: A few thoughts 366 Scott Creighton 25-Feb-14 18:31
Re: A few thoughts 402 cladking 25-Feb-14 19:12
Re: A few thoughts 351 Scott Creighton 25-Feb-14 19:18
Re: A few thoughts 382 Pete Vanderzwet 26-Feb-14 11:59
Re: A few thoughts 374 Scott Creighton 26-Feb-14 13:47
Re: A few thoughts 408 Pete Vanderzwet 26-Feb-14 16:12
Re: A few thoughts 387 Scott Creighton 26-Feb-14 16:30
Re: A few thoughts 384 cladking 26-Feb-14 17:36
Re: A few thoughts 384 MJT 27-Feb-14 12:10
Re: A few thoughts 322 cladking 27-Feb-14 15:25
Re: A few thoughts 367 MJT 26-Feb-14 16:33
Ramps. 341 Pete Vanderzwet 26-Feb-14 17:19
Re: Ramps. 366 cladking 26-Feb-14 17:29
Re: Ramps. 360 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 01:56
Re: Ramps. 357 cladking 28-Feb-14 02:55
Re: Ramps. 377 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 06:14
Re: Ramps. 346 Scott Creighton 28-Feb-14 10:46
Re: Ramps. 371 cladking 28-Feb-14 16:54
Re: Ramps. 348 Scott Creighton 28-Feb-14 17:47
Re: Ramps. 346 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 18:10
Re: Ramps. 365 Scott Creighton 28-Feb-14 18:24
Re: Ramps. 292 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 20:26
Re: Ramps. 415 cladking 28-Feb-14 21:03
Re: Ramps. 360 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 21:13
Re: Ramps. 361 cladking 28-Feb-14 22:08
Re: Ramps. 392 Scott Creighton 01-Mar-14 01:41
Re: Ramps. 328 cladking 01-Mar-14 02:07
Re: Ramps. 320 M. Williams 02-Mar-14 22:20
Re: Ramps. 396 Scott Creighton 03-Mar-14 00:51
Re: Ramps. 373 M. Williams 07-Mar-14 17:57
Re: Ramps. 402 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 19:06
Re: Ramps. 363 cladking 28-Feb-14 19:28
Re: Ramps. 348 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 19:53
Re: Ramps. 335 cladking 28-Feb-14 20:20
Re: Ramps. 301 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 21:00
Re: Ramps. 337 cladking 28-Feb-14 22:02
Re: Ramps. 337 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 22:33
Re: Ramps. 361 cladking 01-Mar-14 00:01
Re: Ramps. 390 M. Williams 01-Mar-14 00:59
Re: Ramps. 354 cladking 01-Mar-14 01:37
Re: Ramps. 354 Pete Vanderzwet 28-Feb-14 14:03
Re: Ramps. 318 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 18:02
A Few Clues 191 loveritas 01-Mar-14 02:11
Re: Ramps. 353 cladking 28-Feb-14 20:06
Re: Ramps. 337 MJT 27-Feb-14 11:51
Re: Ramps. 355 carolb 27-Feb-14 14:33
Re: Ramps. 356 cladking 27-Feb-14 14:54
Re: Ramps. 347 MJT 27-Feb-14 15:02
Re: Ramps. 337 carolb 27-Feb-14 16:49
Re: A few thoughts 318 cladking 26-Feb-14 17:24
Re: A few thoughts 322 cladking 26-Feb-14 17:17
Re: A few thoughts 333 Ratcho 09-Feb-14 23:43
Re: A few thoughts 346 Thanos5150 09-Feb-14 22:18
Re: A few thoughts 351 cladking 08-Feb-14 18:50
Re: A few thoughts 281 Thanos5150 08-Feb-14 20:03
Re: A few thoughts 352 Thanos5150 08-Feb-14 23:54
Re: A few thoughts 378 cladking 07-Feb-14 21:12
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 339 MJT 07-Feb-14 20:09
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 334 cladking 07-Feb-14 21:13
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 367 MJT 08-Feb-14 01:22
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 356 Thanos5150 08-Feb-14 05:51
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 332 M. Williams 08-Feb-14 16:56
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 345 cladking 08-Feb-14 17:14
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 371 M. Williams 08-Feb-14 18:10
Can you be more specific? 355 cladking 08-Feb-14 18:56
deleted n/t 323 cladking 08-Feb-14 18:55
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 275 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 13:19
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 328 cladking 24-Feb-14 16:40
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 356 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 16:56
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 375 cladking 24-Feb-14 22:02
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 356 debraregypt 08-Feb-14 20:32
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 361 EzeqeelNOCH 19-Feb-14 17:23
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 328 Martin Stower 19-Feb-14 21:53
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 319 Thanos5150 20-Feb-14 18:07
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 357 Martin Stower 20-Feb-14 23:05


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