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Pete Vanderzwet wrote:

> Why would you expect a significant 4th dynasty mortuary context
> at Giza, when the site was essentially virgin at the time of
> Khufu's pyramid construction?

I do not believe the Giza plateau was "virgin" at the time of Khufu's reign, for one.

But regardless:
Quote

Specifically, the organized development of cemeteries at Giza are mostly believed to be due to the efforts of Khufu, who had these tombs laid out methodically in "streets" and avenues", and aligned to the axis of his pyramid complex. In fact, scholars believe that Khufu laid out these orderly cemeteries to the east and west of his pyramid in what may have been the world's first example of prefabricated construction, with the assignment of specific tombs to specific individuals only occurring afterwards. Hence, while tourists to Giza are awed by the efforts required to build his Great Pyramid, few realize that at the same time construction was taking place all about this monument.

Egyptologists believe the AE did not wait to build cemeteries until each pyramid was completed and only after the fact did they bury people as you are suggesting, but rather they were pre-made and ready for burial during the time of each pyramids construction. Therefore, what we would expect to find is a plethora of tombs occupied in situ as needed throughout the 4th Dynasty regardless of whether or not the pyramid was completed, like what is attested there from the 5th Dynasty, but this is not what is found.

Also, despite the fact Egyptologists believe Khufu built the West and East cemeteries concurrently with G1, which we can assume were mostly if not all completed in earnest well before G1 was finished if Egyptologists are correct, the West field is made up of almost all 5th-6th Dynasty burials? It makes little sense Khufu would have built the West field only to go unoccupied by his immediate successors being filled with 5th and 6th Dynasty burials instead.

Also, possibly more telling, is that when and if what pyramid was completed when and by whom would be irrelevant to the so called "cemetery of the pyramid workers" which also dates to the 5th Dynasty. Especially when we consider the relatively short lifespan of the average Egyptian of 35yrs, with no doubt pyramid workers being at the bottom rung of this ladder, if your reasoning were correct we would expect at the very least to find scads of 4th Dynasty pyramid worker burials there from the very beginnings, but again this is clearly not the case as they all date to the 5th Dynasty as well.

Another thing to consider are the G1 satellite pyramids. If we accept these were originally intended as tombs, obviously reserved for the most important people behind Khufu, completing these would have been of paramount importance as well and one of the first projects started. This is a little hard to swallow considering the separate effort required given these pyramids were as much as 100ft tall themselves, as well as the rather rude fashion in which they are stuffed into the overall plan only narrowly avoiding such things that presumably weren't even there yet like the temple, which we assume would have been built last, and the causeway, suggesting the satellite pyramids were built after the fact.

Worth noting is that though not directly adjacent to any pyramid, at the South cemetery there are several 2nd and 3rd Dynasty burials which show Giza was already a burial site well before the 4th Dynasty. More importantly, however, there are at least two tombs at G2's Central cemetery, namely those attributed to Khentkawes and Kai, that highly likely date to the 2nd or 3rd Dynasties if not earlier as well.

> In understanding the ancient
> Egyptians, what we have at Giza is pretty much what you would
> expect. Close family and some officials. There were already
> established funerary anchors at other nearby sites, such as
> Saqqara, Meidum, Dashour, or even Abydos. It's not until the
> Giza site established a culture of ritual legitimacy that more
> burials were included there in the later 5th and 6th dynasties.

The reigns of Khufu through Menkaure spanned at least nearly 90yrs in which we are told construction on the Giza plateau started on the first day and stopped shortly after the last. 90yrs in the life of an Egyptian represents at least 3 generations of lifespans and would supposedly have been the epicenter of the entire nations economy and social and religious structure. It is safe to say there was more than enough time for Giza to have established its "culture of ritual legitimacy" not to mention this would have been established whether people liked it or not by Khufu's decree, a living god, from day one. But it wasn't. They also did not spend 90yrs building these things for the primary benefit of the next few generations that followed only to claim a pittance for themselves and give the rest away.

While of course it stands to reason later generations would have a presence there, like the 6th Dynasty does, what would not be expected is that the Dynasty the site is attributed to would have so little; not only by comparison but relative to the size and scope of the task. Giza as a whole was as great or greater of an endeavor than Sakkara, Meidum, and Dashour combined and yet the people that supposedly built it are the least represented not to mention the last and "poorest" pharaoh of the three is by far the most dominant presence at the site? Sorry, not buying it.

> It's a pretty natural progression if you ask me. There is a
> significant royal presence for Khufu's court near his pyramid.

And yet no "presence" to be found he actually built it.

"Dynasties" are a modern artificial construction with no historical value other than what we give it. In reality there is nothing to say that Menkaure was in fact not representative of the end of the 4th Dynasty, but rather as I believe, the "beginning of the 5th" where the last of the Giza renovations began. It is his presence that now dominates Giza as well as the 5th Dynasty that directly follows him, not Khufu or Khafre. If in fact Khufu and Khafre were as great of pharaohs as they supposedly must have been to do the works they did, if true it is hard to believe Menkaure and the 5th Dynasty would stand so far above them in the archaeological record at Giza.



Post Edited (25-Feb-14 04:38)

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"Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 1359 Thanos5150 07-Feb-14 02:20
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 381 cladking 07-Feb-14 02:36
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 376 Thanos5150 07-Feb-14 02:46
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 318 Misterx 07-Feb-14 05:58
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 363 cladking 07-Feb-14 20:56
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 373 Chris Jordan 07-Feb-14 15:44
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 352 Pete Vanderzwet 07-Feb-14 15:46
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 366 Thanos5150 07-Feb-14 18:28
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 340 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 12:58
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 339 Thanos5150 24-Feb-14 22:20
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 353 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 22:33
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 388 Thanos5150 25-Feb-14 03:20
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 302 Pete Vanderzwet 25-Feb-14 11:32
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 347 Thanos5150 25-Feb-14 19:04
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 348 Pete Vanderzwet 26-Feb-14 11:53
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 345 Thanos5150 26-Feb-14 22:11
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 330 Pete Vanderzwet 27-Feb-14 12:53
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 379 Thanos5150 27-Feb-14 18:54
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 304 Pete Vanderzwet 28-Feb-14 13:17
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 423 Thanos5150 01-Mar-14 06:13
Thanks for the post. 319 cladking 01-Mar-14 20:44
Re: Thanks for the post. 369 Thanos5150 02-Mar-14 00:16
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 315 Thanos5150 02-Mar-14 00:14
Great Post! 387 loveritas 02-Mar-14 01:17
Re: Great Post! 315 Thanos5150 02-Mar-14 01:56
Re: Great Post! 390 Ratcho 02-Mar-14 19:15
Re: Great Post! 352 Thanos5150 03-Mar-14 23:14
Re: Great Post! 341 Ratcho 04-Mar-14 06:23
Re: Great Post! 353 Thanos5150 04-Mar-14 17:37
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 401 Thanos5150 08-Mar-14 06:28
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 374 Thanos5150 28-Feb-14 00:00
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 369 Pete Vanderzwet 28-Feb-14 13:20
A few thoughts 309 Skatha 07-Feb-14 16:53
Re: A few thoughts 362 Thanos5150 07-Feb-14 18:22
Re: A few thoughts 325 Dr. Troglodyte 08-Feb-14 00:35
Re: A few thoughts 446 Thanos5150 08-Feb-14 05:49
Re: A few thoughts 368 Dr. Troglodyte 09-Feb-14 00:51
Re: A few thoughts 382 Thanos5150 09-Feb-14 02:34
Re: A few thoughts 355 Skatha 08-Feb-14 18:21
Re: A few thoughts 337 Thanos5150 08-Feb-14 21:42
Re: A few thoughts 432 Skatha 09-Feb-14 02:34
Re: A few thoughts 387 Thanos5150 09-Feb-14 03:20
Re: A few thoughts 328 Skatha 09-Feb-14 18:54
Re: A few thoughts 362 Ratcho 09-Feb-14 19:10
Re: A few thoughts 269 Skatha 09-Feb-14 20:47
Re: A few thoughts 298 cladking 09-Feb-14 21:58
Re: A few thoughts 337 Skatha 10-Feb-14 06:14
Re: A few thoughts 340 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 12:58
Re: A few thoughts 338 cladking 24-Feb-14 16:08
Re: A few thoughts 361 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 16:23
Re: A few thoughts 360 cladking 24-Feb-14 21:42
Re: A few thoughts 314 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 22:21
Re: A few thoughts 328 cladking 24-Feb-14 23:03
Re: A few thoughts 379 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 23:27
Re: A few thoughts 372 cladking 24-Feb-14 23:46
Re: A few thoughts 734 Pete Vanderzwet 25-Feb-14 00:38
Re: A few thoughts 370 cladking 25-Feb-14 01:35
Re: A few thoughts 373 Pete Vanderzwet 25-Feb-14 11:44
Re: A few thoughts 352 cladking 25-Feb-14 15:53
Re: A few thoughts 347 Scott Creighton 25-Feb-14 18:31
Re: A few thoughts 383 cladking 25-Feb-14 19:12
Re: A few thoughts 331 Scott Creighton 25-Feb-14 19:18
Re: A few thoughts 365 Pete Vanderzwet 26-Feb-14 11:59
Re: A few thoughts 342 Scott Creighton 26-Feb-14 13:47
Re: A few thoughts 380 Pete Vanderzwet 26-Feb-14 16:12
Re: A few thoughts 357 Scott Creighton 26-Feb-14 16:30
Re: A few thoughts 369 cladking 26-Feb-14 17:36
Re: A few thoughts 367 MJT 27-Feb-14 12:10
Re: A few thoughts 306 cladking 27-Feb-14 15:25
Re: A few thoughts 352 MJT 26-Feb-14 16:33
Ramps. 321 Pete Vanderzwet 26-Feb-14 17:19
Re: Ramps. 349 cladking 26-Feb-14 17:29
Re: Ramps. 345 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 01:56
Re: Ramps. 342 cladking 28-Feb-14 02:55
Re: Ramps. 361 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 06:14
Re: Ramps. 327 Scott Creighton 28-Feb-14 10:46
Re: Ramps. 355 cladking 28-Feb-14 16:54
Re: Ramps. 320 Scott Creighton 28-Feb-14 17:47
Re: Ramps. 331 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 18:10
Re: Ramps. 350 Scott Creighton 28-Feb-14 18:24
Re: Ramps. 277 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 20:26
Re: Ramps. 399 cladking 28-Feb-14 21:03
Re: Ramps. 342 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 21:13
Re: Ramps. 344 cladking 28-Feb-14 22:08
Re: Ramps. 375 Scott Creighton 01-Mar-14 01:41
Re: Ramps. 307 cladking 01-Mar-14 02:07
Re: Ramps. 304 M. Williams 02-Mar-14 22:20
Re: Ramps. 365 Scott Creighton 03-Mar-14 00:51
Re: Ramps. 354 M. Williams 07-Mar-14 17:57
Re: Ramps. 388 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 19:06
Re: Ramps. 347 cladking 28-Feb-14 19:28
Re: Ramps. 332 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 19:53
Re: Ramps. 319 cladking 28-Feb-14 20:20
Re: Ramps. 284 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 21:00
Re: Ramps. 322 cladking 28-Feb-14 22:02
Re: Ramps. 322 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 22:33
Re: Ramps. 343 cladking 01-Mar-14 00:01
Re: Ramps. 371 M. Williams 01-Mar-14 00:59
Re: Ramps. 331 cladking 01-Mar-14 01:37
Re: Ramps. 336 Pete Vanderzwet 28-Feb-14 14:03
Re: Ramps. 304 M. Williams 28-Feb-14 18:02
A Few Clues 177 loveritas 01-Mar-14 02:11
Re: Ramps. 340 cladking 28-Feb-14 20:06
Re: Ramps. 320 MJT 27-Feb-14 11:51
Re: Ramps. 338 carolb 27-Feb-14 14:33
Re: Ramps. 341 cladking 27-Feb-14 14:54
Re: Ramps. 331 MJT 27-Feb-14 15:02
Re: Ramps. 322 carolb 27-Feb-14 16:49
Re: A few thoughts 304 cladking 26-Feb-14 17:24
Re: A few thoughts 307 cladking 26-Feb-14 17:17
Re: A few thoughts 317 Ratcho 09-Feb-14 23:43
Re: A few thoughts 329 Thanos5150 09-Feb-14 22:18
Re: A few thoughts 337 cladking 08-Feb-14 18:50
Re: A few thoughts 266 Thanos5150 08-Feb-14 20:03
Re: A few thoughts 315 Thanos5150 08-Feb-14 23:54
Re: A few thoughts 361 cladking 07-Feb-14 21:12
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 322 MJT 07-Feb-14 20:09
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 320 cladking 07-Feb-14 21:13
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 354 MJT 08-Feb-14 01:22
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 342 Thanos5150 08-Feb-14 05:51
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 313 M. Williams 08-Feb-14 16:56
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 332 cladking 08-Feb-14 17:14
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 352 M. Williams 08-Feb-14 18:10
Can you be more specific? 333 cladking 08-Feb-14 18:56
deleted n/t 308 cladking 08-Feb-14 18:55
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 262 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 13:19
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 314 cladking 24-Feb-14 16:40
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 336 Pete Vanderzwet 24-Feb-14 16:56
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 360 cladking 24-Feb-14 22:02
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 343 debraregypt 08-Feb-14 20:32
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 346 EzeqeelNOCH 19-Feb-14 17:23
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 314 Martin Stower 19-Feb-14 21:53
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 305 Thanos5150 20-Feb-14 18:07
Re: "Pyramid Town" Not for Pyramid Workers After All 343 Martin Stower 20-Feb-14 23:05


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