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Martin Stower wrote:

> Lonely Angel,
>
> I am not defending Vyse’s honour.
>
> That this is a question of Vyse’s honour is a fallacy promoted
> by proponents of the forgery fantasy, precisely because (in
> their fantasy) it’s an easy thing to attack.
>
> My critique is aimed at ludicrous misreadings of the relevant
> evidence.
>
> Those who misread and misrepresent the evidence currently
> available may reliably be expected to misread and misrepresent
> new evidence. True forensic testing (and I doubt we’ve seen
> much more here than CSI-inspired fantasy on the topic) would be
> wasted on them.
>
> M.
>

A most unscientific attitude I have to say... I fear your attachment to this issue has become, over the years, emotional rather than entirely rational.

I appreciate your frustation at people not simply accepting your version of events, but this issue is - and always was - too complex and convoluted to be simply decided and put to rest on your say-so. The genuine, enquiring mind requires that the evidence is tested, fully tested.

No one should fear the truth, but until the truth is established then I for one will not swallow a lie simply because it is expedient. There is a clear questionmark hanging over this issue - central to which, whether you like it or not, IS the very questionable character of Vyse - in that this was either his greatest achievement or his dirtiest trick. We have the modern means to establish a clearer picture and I would question the motives of anyone who was against further investigation.

People of good faith are entitled to interpret evidence as they see fit, and to be deeply suspicious of being told simply to accept the existing narrative because that's the way things are and always were.

The tragedy is that, on this vital, painfully crucial issue I know as well as you that there is likely to be no further scientific testing in the foreseeable future. This fact is as insufferable as it is true, and we jusat have to live with it.

That leaves you arguing endlessly with the likes of Scott Creighton, and every other person who comes across this story and finds something extremely fishy about it.

I know you are firm in your own convictions about the narrative you defend, and I know you argue in good faith, but until something comes up that truly lifts the evidence to a level that a reasonable person can examine and then go away convinced one way or another, I'm afraid that you are deluding yourself if you think that the ground beneath your case is any firmer than that beneath those you decry as ludicrous and fantasists.



Lonely Angel


""It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 958 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 439 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 407 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 401 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 404 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 461 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 415 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 359 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 400 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 418 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 317 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 376 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 393 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 405 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 473 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 412 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 356 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 440 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 381 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 372 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 325 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 370 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 458 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 401 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 368 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 369 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 439 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 399 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 450 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 447 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 383 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 439 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 333 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 395 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 393 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 374 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 390 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 376 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 336 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 418 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 466 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 485 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 317 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 396 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 439 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 417 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 363 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 385 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 324 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 409 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 412 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 429 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 391 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 449 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 393 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 398 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 416 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 396 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 458 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 324 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 403 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 377 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 374 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 528 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 278 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 338 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 420 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 432 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 375 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 383 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 392 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 467 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 418 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 356 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 356 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 359 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 357 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 377 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 367 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 380 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 412 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 390 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 345 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 321 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 399 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 386 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 391 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 404 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 394 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 383 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 385 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 332 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 355 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 375 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 362 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 412 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 291 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 375 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 352 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 332 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 320 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 317 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 374 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 358 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 346 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 427 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 373 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 345 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 224 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 391 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 370 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 382 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 375 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 352 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 377 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 314 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 378 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 376 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 349 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 322 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 345 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 392 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 371 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 281 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 340 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 322 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 330 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 374 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 380 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 298 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 327 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 513 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 357 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 381 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 692 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 542 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 438 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 369 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 346 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 337 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 370 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 412 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 340 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 372 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 379 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 372 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 389 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 257 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 297 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 315 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 347 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 366 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 329 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 301 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 250 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 240 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 237 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 281 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 175 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 324 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 367 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 294 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 281 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 305 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 261 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 240 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 191 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 149 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 148 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 162 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 138 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 212 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 187 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 173 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 156 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 198 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 157 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 181 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 136 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 162 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 135 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 98 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 84 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 116 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 140 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 145 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 146 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 135 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 179 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 127 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 122 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 124 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 118 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 131 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 120 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 107 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 132 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 143 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 148 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 183 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 217 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 232 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 257 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 238 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 152 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 166 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 132 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 146 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 170 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 138 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 134 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 167 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 151 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 216 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 153 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 184 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 299 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 124 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 140 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 108 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 145 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 130 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 113 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53


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