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Hi "Dr Troglodyte",

I have read many times in your posts you use an awful lot of quotation marks around words that confuses the meaning of what you are trying to say sometimes. It implies you doubt the validity of the word's usage suggesting they are "so-called"....

“scientific means”, “quarry marks”, Dr. Robert M. Schoch, a “scientist”

Do you doubt these words are accurate?

“Campbell’s Chamber”, ”Khufu”, “marks”.

These all have a context as "so-called" so quotation marks would be appropriate.

Regarding your post,
Quote

Studying them closely, however, they looked authentically ancient to me. I could see later mineral crystals precipitated over them, a process that takes centuries or millennia, and the inscriptions continue under the overlying blocks.

Well, it has been over 150yrs since Vyse was there, pretty close to being "centuries", but this does leave one to wonder if whatever process that causes "mineral crystals to precipitate" might be accelerated by the micro-climate of these small chambers being in the heart of a 481ft pyramid in the middle of a desert. It would be interesting if Schoch made an analysis of the distribution of these crystals on the cartouche in question. It would stand to reason it would be uniform over both red ochre and exposed block, and if not, I assume this would mean something.

There is no doubt the quarry marks are genuine, the issue is the graffiti, particularly this one in question. Does it go under the other block or just terminate there?
Look here at Lady Arbuthnot's Chamber:[www.rickrichards.com]. It is interesting to note that some of the cartouches, like the one in question, terminate at another block whereas several others are written right over one block to the next. This can only mean two things:1) some blocks had cartouches written on them at the quarry and some were written on the blocks in situ, or 2) they were all written on in situ and some were terminated at an adjoining inaccessible block while others in more open spaces continued over one block to the next. A 3rd possibility exists if we assume all were all were written at the quarry, the block was cut, then matched up perfectly during construction so that the ultimately meaningless cartouches perfectly lined up once again. This does not seem reasonable if even possible. Therefore, what we have is that during construction workers dropped in for the fun of it and scrawled graffiti on the blocks which makes the possibility these were terminated and not pre-existing writings partially obscured by another block during construction.

Personally, I am on the fence about the whole forgery issue as to me both sides make compelling arguments though when I look at the cartouche in question it does appear to me there was once a dot in the center that was later covered by the center of the 3 lines. Someone, it is possible, changed their mind as to what to put in the circle. Whether this was Vyse or an ancient repairman for me the jury is still out. If genuine, this does not provide provenance regardless nor can we be sure when they were written.

I think there is an underserved line of inquiry to be made regarding the greater issue that may prove equally if not more compelling. By my count there are 8 different cartouches and at least 13 inscriptions in just this one chamber. All told there are over a dozen cartouches and several more inscriptions between all the chambers. No one seems to be taking the bait here, but again, it stands to reason to me that if we really want to understand the provenance and possibly greater meaning of the Khufu cartouche(s) in question that an inventory of translations needs to be made of ALL the graffiti so that they can be put into a proper context. If anyone has this information I would ask to please post it as it would be enormously helpful to this discussion.

Also, you forgot to quote Schoch's conclusion regarding the graffiti:

Quote

Still, just what do genuine quarry marks and inscriptions on stones deep within the Great Pyramid actually tell us? The hieroglyphic cartouche for the name Khufu was a powerful charm that has been found on any number of tombs and monuments throughout Egypt, many of them accurately dated to after the 4th Dynasty. The cartouche was used as a holy symbol the same way the cross was inscribed here, there, and everywhere by Christians in later centuries. The inscriptions don't necessarily prove that Khufu built the Great Pyramid. They might only mean Khufu himself was named after the Great Pyramid, which perhaps existed well before he did.



Post Edited (16-May-13 21:58)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 1051 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 489 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 457 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 461 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 460 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 538 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 495 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 408 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 457 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 470 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 367 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 441 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 452 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 457 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 545 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 464 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 405 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 505 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 445 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 438 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 383 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 444 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 516 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 453 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 419 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 418 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 500 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 450 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 517 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 524 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 433 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 493 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 389 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 452 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 448 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 436 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 429 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 393 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 484 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 533 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 554 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 371 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 451 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 494 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 492 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 420 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 461 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 378 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 462 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 468 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 489 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 457 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 532 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 458 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 456 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 500 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 484 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 450 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 483 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 511 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 385 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 453 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 415 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 426 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 610 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 344 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 386 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 487 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 479 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 426 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 450 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 445 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 526 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 475 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 417 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 422 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 406 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 407 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 422 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 415 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 442 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 476 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 437 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 388 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 372 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 453 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 432 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 422 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 448 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 454 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 428 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 434 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 396 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 400 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 416 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 416 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 463 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 332 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 435 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 399 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 387 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 381 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 362 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 425 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 403 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 405 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 489 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 420 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 392 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 269 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 451 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 414 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 431 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 420 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 392 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 424 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 358 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 425 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 421 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 401 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 371 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 393 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 442 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 430 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 326 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 385 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 373 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 373 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 432 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 420 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 359 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 373 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 580 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 416 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 439 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 797 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 655 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 487 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 425 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 390 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 519 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 393 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 418 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 458 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 418 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 434 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 429 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 429 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 441 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 320 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 345 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 349 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 396 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 418 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 376 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 352 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 300 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 297 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 302 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 333 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 246 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 376 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 442 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 359 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 329 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 367 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 315 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 290 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 238 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 208 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 208 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 208 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 184 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 270 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 237 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 226 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 207 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 246 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 212 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 264 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 180 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 217 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 212 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 145 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 137 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 168 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 202 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 192 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 198 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 180 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 229 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 172 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 185 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 178 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 167 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 173 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 174 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 155 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 179 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 209 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 193 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 258 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 263 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 285 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 321 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 298 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 230 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 215 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 180 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 193 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 214 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 182 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 184 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 214 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 205 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 286 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 199 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 235 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 346 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 174 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 186 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 159 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 211 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 180 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 163 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53


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