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Hi "Dr Troglodyte",

I have read many times in your posts you use an awful lot of quotation marks around words that confuses the meaning of what you are trying to say sometimes. It implies you doubt the validity of the word's usage suggesting they are "so-called"....

“scientific means”, “quarry marks”, Dr. Robert M. Schoch, a “scientist”

Do you doubt these words are accurate?

“Campbell’s Chamber”, ”Khufu”, “marks”.

These all have a context as "so-called" so quotation marks would be appropriate.

Regarding your post,
Quote

Studying them closely, however, they looked authentically ancient to me. I could see later mineral crystals precipitated over them, a process that takes centuries or millennia, and the inscriptions continue under the overlying blocks.

Well, it has been over 150yrs since Vyse was there, pretty close to being "centuries", but this does leave one to wonder if whatever process that causes "mineral crystals to precipitate" might be accelerated by the micro-climate of these small chambers being in the heart of a 481ft pyramid in the middle of a desert. It would be interesting if Schoch made an analysis of the distribution of these crystals on the cartouche in question. It would stand to reason it would be uniform over both red ochre and exposed block, and if not, I assume this would mean something.

There is no doubt the quarry marks are genuine, the issue is the graffiti, particularly this one in question. Does it go under the other block or just terminate there?
Look here at Lady Arbuthnot's Chamber:[www.rickrichards.com]. It is interesting to note that some of the cartouches, like the one in question, terminate at another block whereas several others are written right over one block to the next. This can only mean two things:1) some blocks had cartouches written on them at the quarry and some were written on the blocks in situ, or 2) they were all written on in situ and some were terminated at an adjoining inaccessible block while others in more open spaces continued over one block to the next. A 3rd possibility exists if we assume all were all were written at the quarry, the block was cut, then matched up perfectly during construction so that the ultimately meaningless cartouches perfectly lined up once again. This does not seem reasonable if even possible. Therefore, what we have is that during construction workers dropped in for the fun of it and scrawled graffiti on the blocks which makes the possibility these were terminated and not pre-existing writings partially obscured by another block during construction.

Personally, I am on the fence about the whole forgery issue as to me both sides make compelling arguments though when I look at the cartouche in question it does appear to me there was once a dot in the center that was later covered by the center of the 3 lines. Someone, it is possible, changed their mind as to what to put in the circle. Whether this was Vyse or an ancient repairman for me the jury is still out. If genuine, this does not provide provenance regardless nor can we be sure when they were written.

I think there is an underserved line of inquiry to be made regarding the greater issue that may prove equally if not more compelling. By my count there are 8 different cartouches and at least 13 inscriptions in just this one chamber. All told there are over a dozen cartouches and several more inscriptions between all the chambers. No one seems to be taking the bait here, but again, it stands to reason to me that if we really want to understand the provenance and possibly greater meaning of the Khufu cartouche(s) in question that an inventory of translations needs to be made of ALL the graffiti so that they can be put into a proper context. If anyone has this information I would ask to please post it as it would be enormously helpful to this discussion.

Also, you forgot to quote Schoch's conclusion regarding the graffiti:

Quote

Still, just what do genuine quarry marks and inscriptions on stones deep within the Great Pyramid actually tell us? The hieroglyphic cartouche for the name Khufu was a powerful charm that has been found on any number of tombs and monuments throughout Egypt, many of them accurately dated to after the 4th Dynasty. The cartouche was used as a holy symbol the same way the cross was inscribed here, there, and everywhere by Christians in later centuries. The inscriptions don't necessarily prove that Khufu built the Great Pyramid. They might only mean Khufu himself was named after the Great Pyramid, which perhaps existed well before he did.



Post Edited (16-May-13 21:58)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 962 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 443 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 409 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 403 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 405 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 463 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 417 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 361 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 402 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 421 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 320 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 378 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 396 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 407 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 482 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 418 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 357 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 441 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 383 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 375 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 327 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 373 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 459 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 404 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 371 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 371 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 440 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 401 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 453 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 450 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 386 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 336 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 399 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 394 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 376 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 392 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 378 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 339 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 421 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 467 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 489 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 318 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 398 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 418 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 366 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 387 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 327 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 413 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 415 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 430 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 392 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 452 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 395 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 403 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 418 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 400 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 439 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 463 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 327 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 406 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 380 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 376 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 533 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 280 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 340 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 421 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 435 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 377 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 386 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 395 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 468 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 423 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 358 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 361 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 361 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 360 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 380 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 369 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 383 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 414 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 393 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 347 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 324 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 402 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 388 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 393 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 405 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 400 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 386 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 386 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 335 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 356 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 377 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 364 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 415 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 292 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 377 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 354 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 335 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 324 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 319 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 377 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 360 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 351 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 430 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 375 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 346 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 225 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 395 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 371 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 384 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 377 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 357 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 380 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 319 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 381 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 378 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 350 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 324 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 347 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 393 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 376 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 283 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 343 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 326 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 332 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 379 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 381 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 300 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 330 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 519 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 365 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 384 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 701 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 552 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 371 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 347 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 443 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 340 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 372 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 415 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 343 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 374 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 383 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 374 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 394 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 259 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 300 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 320 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 351 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 369 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 334 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 303 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 254 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 244 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 239 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 285 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 176 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 328 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 373 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 297 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 284 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 309 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 263 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 241 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 194 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 153 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 150 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 165 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 141 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 218 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 188 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 174 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 159 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 201 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 161 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 183 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 139 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 164 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 138 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 100 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 86 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 120 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 141 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 148 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 148 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 137 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 182 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 130 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 124 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 126 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 121 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 132 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 121 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 110 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 135 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 146 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 150 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 190 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 219 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 234 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 259 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 242 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 153 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 168 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 135 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 148 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 173 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 139 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 136 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 171 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 153 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 221 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 155 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 186 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 303 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 127 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 144 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 109 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 148 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 134 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 116 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53


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