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Hi "Dr Troglodyte",

I have read many times in your posts you use an awful lot of quotation marks around words that confuses the meaning of what you are trying to say sometimes. It implies you doubt the validity of the word's usage suggesting they are "so-called"....

“scientific means”, “quarry marks”, Dr. Robert M. Schoch, a “scientist”

Do you doubt these words are accurate?

“Campbell’s Chamber”, ”Khufu”, “marks”.

These all have a context as "so-called" so quotation marks would be appropriate.

Regarding your post,
Quote

Studying them closely, however, they looked authentically ancient to me. I could see later mineral crystals precipitated over them, a process that takes centuries or millennia, and the inscriptions continue under the overlying blocks.

Well, it has been over 150yrs since Vyse was there, pretty close to being "centuries", but this does leave one to wonder if whatever process that causes "mineral crystals to precipitate" might be accelerated by the micro-climate of these small chambers being in the heart of a 481ft pyramid in the middle of a desert. It would be interesting if Schoch made an analysis of the distribution of these crystals on the cartouche in question. It would stand to reason it would be uniform over both red ochre and exposed block, and if not, I assume this would mean something.

There is no doubt the quarry marks are genuine, the issue is the graffiti, particularly this one in question. Does it go under the other block or just terminate there?
Look here at Lady Arbuthnot's Chamber:[www.rickrichards.com]. It is interesting to note that some of the cartouches, like the one in question, terminate at another block whereas several others are written right over one block to the next. This can only mean two things:1) some blocks had cartouches written on them at the quarry and some were written on the blocks in situ, or 2) they were all written on in situ and some were terminated at an adjoining inaccessible block while others in more open spaces continued over one block to the next. A 3rd possibility exists if we assume all were all were written at the quarry, the block was cut, then matched up perfectly during construction so that the ultimately meaningless cartouches perfectly lined up once again. This does not seem reasonable if even possible. Therefore, what we have is that during construction workers dropped in for the fun of it and scrawled graffiti on the blocks which makes the possibility these were terminated and not pre-existing writings partially obscured by another block during construction.

Personally, I am on the fence about the whole forgery issue as to me both sides make compelling arguments though when I look at the cartouche in question it does appear to me there was once a dot in the center that was later covered by the center of the 3 lines. Someone, it is possible, changed their mind as to what to put in the circle. Whether this was Vyse or an ancient repairman for me the jury is still out. If genuine, this does not provide provenance regardless nor can we be sure when they were written.

I think there is an underserved line of inquiry to be made regarding the greater issue that may prove equally if not more compelling. By my count there are 8 different cartouches and at least 13 inscriptions in just this one chamber. All told there are over a dozen cartouches and several more inscriptions between all the chambers. No one seems to be taking the bait here, but again, it stands to reason to me that if we really want to understand the provenance and possibly greater meaning of the Khufu cartouche(s) in question that an inventory of translations needs to be made of ALL the graffiti so that they can be put into a proper context. If anyone has this information I would ask to please post it as it would be enormously helpful to this discussion.

Also, you forgot to quote Schoch's conclusion regarding the graffiti:

Quote

Still, just what do genuine quarry marks and inscriptions on stones deep within the Great Pyramid actually tell us? The hieroglyphic cartouche for the name Khufu was a powerful charm that has been found on any number of tombs and monuments throughout Egypt, many of them accurately dated to after the 4th Dynasty. The cartouche was used as a holy symbol the same way the cross was inscribed here, there, and everywhere by Christians in later centuries. The inscriptions don't necessarily prove that Khufu built the Great Pyramid. They might only mean Khufu himself was named after the Great Pyramid, which perhaps existed well before he did.



Post Edited (16-May-13 21:58)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 990 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 463 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 429 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 422 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 428 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 484 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 437 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 380 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 421 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 440 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 341 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 398 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 415 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 425 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 506 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 438 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 376 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 461 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 404 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 400 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 348 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 395 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 478 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 423 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 391 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 390 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 462 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 421 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 473 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 468 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 405 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 462 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 357 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 419 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 414 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 395 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 411 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 398 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 361 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 490 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 512 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 339 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 421 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 462 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 386 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 408 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 338 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 451 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 413 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 476 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 415 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 422 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 456 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 421 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 458 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 482 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 349 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 425 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 386 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 395 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 552 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 314 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 359 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 443 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 455 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 397 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 414 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 415 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 489 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 449 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 378 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 382 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 382 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 380 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 401 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 390 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 403 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 433 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 410 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 366 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 342 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 428 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 406 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 401 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 424 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 425 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 405 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 406 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 353 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 374 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 394 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 383 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 436 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 309 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 397 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 375 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 355 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 342 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 338 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 397 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 380 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 369 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 449 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 394 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 369 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 245 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 413 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 390 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 405 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 397 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 368 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 398 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 327 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 400 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 395 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 371 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 341 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 367 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 412 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 398 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 302 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 362 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 346 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 343 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 397 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 400 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 319 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 350 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 540 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 387 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 406 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 726 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 581 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 453 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 390 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 368 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 463 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 360 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 396 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 433 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 365 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 398 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 401 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 394 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 414 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 279 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 318 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 326 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 369 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 387 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 355 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 323 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 274 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 262 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 264 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 304 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 197 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 346 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 393 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 314 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 306 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 329 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 282 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 263 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 212 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 173 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 171 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 185 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 160 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 245 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 209 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 197 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 179 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 222 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 181 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 212 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 159 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 185 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 156 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 116 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 105 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 146 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 164 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 168 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 170 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 157 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 202 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 148 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 148 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 145 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 139 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 148 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 143 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 129 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 154 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 166 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 169 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 214 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 238 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 255 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 279 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 267 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 174 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 190 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 158 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 166 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 191 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 160 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 157 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 192 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 174 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 242 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 173 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 205 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 322 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 146 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 163 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 128 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 167 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 151 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 135 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53


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