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Hi "Dr Troglodyte",

I have read many times in your posts you use an awful lot of quotation marks around words that confuses the meaning of what you are trying to say sometimes. It implies you doubt the validity of the word's usage suggesting they are "so-called"....

“scientific means”, “quarry marks”, Dr. Robert M. Schoch, a “scientist”

Do you doubt these words are accurate?

“Campbell’s Chamber”, ”Khufu”, “marks”.

These all have a context as "so-called" so quotation marks would be appropriate.

Regarding your post,
Quote

Studying them closely, however, they looked authentically ancient to me. I could see later mineral crystals precipitated over them, a process that takes centuries or millennia, and the inscriptions continue under the overlying blocks.

Well, it has been over 150yrs since Vyse was there, pretty close to being "centuries", but this does leave one to wonder if whatever process that causes "mineral crystals to precipitate" might be accelerated by the micro-climate of these small chambers being in the heart of a 481ft pyramid in the middle of a desert. It would be interesting if Schoch made an analysis of the distribution of these crystals on the cartouche in question. It would stand to reason it would be uniform over both red ochre and exposed block, and if not, I assume this would mean something.

There is no doubt the quarry marks are genuine, the issue is the graffiti, particularly this one in question. Does it go under the other block or just terminate there?
Look here at Lady Arbuthnot's Chamber:[www.rickrichards.com]. It is interesting to note that some of the cartouches, like the one in question, terminate at another block whereas several others are written right over one block to the next. This can only mean two things:1) some blocks had cartouches written on them at the quarry and some were written on the blocks in situ, or 2) they were all written on in situ and some were terminated at an adjoining inaccessible block while others in more open spaces continued over one block to the next. A 3rd possibility exists if we assume all were all were written at the quarry, the block was cut, then matched up perfectly during construction so that the ultimately meaningless cartouches perfectly lined up once again. This does not seem reasonable if even possible. Therefore, what we have is that during construction workers dropped in for the fun of it and scrawled graffiti on the blocks which makes the possibility these were terminated and not pre-existing writings partially obscured by another block during construction.

Personally, I am on the fence about the whole forgery issue as to me both sides make compelling arguments though when I look at the cartouche in question it does appear to me there was once a dot in the center that was later covered by the center of the 3 lines. Someone, it is possible, changed their mind as to what to put in the circle. Whether this was Vyse or an ancient repairman for me the jury is still out. If genuine, this does not provide provenance regardless nor can we be sure when they were written.

I think there is an underserved line of inquiry to be made regarding the greater issue that may prove equally if not more compelling. By my count there are 8 different cartouches and at least 13 inscriptions in just this one chamber. All told there are over a dozen cartouches and several more inscriptions between all the chambers. No one seems to be taking the bait here, but again, it stands to reason to me that if we really want to understand the provenance and possibly greater meaning of the Khufu cartouche(s) in question that an inventory of translations needs to be made of ALL the graffiti so that they can be put into a proper context. If anyone has this information I would ask to please post it as it would be enormously helpful to this discussion.

Also, you forgot to quote Schoch's conclusion regarding the graffiti:

Quote

Still, just what do genuine quarry marks and inscriptions on stones deep within the Great Pyramid actually tell us? The hieroglyphic cartouche for the name Khufu was a powerful charm that has been found on any number of tombs and monuments throughout Egypt, many of them accurately dated to after the 4th Dynasty. The cartouche was used as a holy symbol the same way the cross was inscribed here, there, and everywhere by Christians in later centuries. The inscriptions don't necessarily prove that Khufu built the Great Pyramid. They might only mean Khufu himself was named after the Great Pyramid, which perhaps existed well before he did.



Post Edited (16-May-13 21:58)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 1041 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 485 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 451 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 448 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 455 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 529 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 487 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 403 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 450 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 462 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 362 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 426 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 441 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 447 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 536 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 457 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 397 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 499 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 435 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 426 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 371 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 429 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 507 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 446 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 413 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 411 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 493 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 442 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 505 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 517 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 427 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 487 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 382 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 446 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 427 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 432 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 421 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 384 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 477 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 519 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 546 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 363 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 443 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 485 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 482 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 409 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 452 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 372 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 455 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 463 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 481 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 445 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 516 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 443 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 445 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 485 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 477 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 442 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 477 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 504 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 378 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 447 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 406 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 417 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 597 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 337 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 379 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 473 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 472 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 418 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 443 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 436 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 513 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 467 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 412 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 417 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 402 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 400 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 418 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 411 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 438 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 462 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 431 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 383 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 367 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 448 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 426 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 417 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 442 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 449 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 425 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 429 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 384 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 394 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 412 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 404 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 457 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 326 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 423 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 393 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 382 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 369 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 358 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 420 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 397 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 400 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 475 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 414 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 388 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 265 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 443 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 408 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 425 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 414 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 387 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 419 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 350 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 419 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 414 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 396 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 363 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 387 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 436 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 425 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 322 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 380 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 368 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 367 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 422 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 416 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 346 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 369 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 575 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 411 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 787 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 638 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 477 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 420 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 385 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 510 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 381 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 414 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 453 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 413 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 431 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 423 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 418 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 436 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 312 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 339 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 343 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 391 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 411 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 372 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 346 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 294 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 290 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 296 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 325 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 235 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 367 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 434 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 351 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 325 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 360 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 311 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 284 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 234 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 201 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 193 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 204 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 179 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 263 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 231 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 217 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 201 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 241 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 207 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 259 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 176 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 214 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 200 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 140 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 132 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 163 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 191 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 186 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 191 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 176 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 223 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 169 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 181 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 174 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 159 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 168 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 168 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 150 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 175 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 203 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 188 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 254 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 258 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 276 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 303 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 290 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 221 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 209 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 176 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 189 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 207 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 177 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 178 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 211 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 195 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 281 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 195 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 229 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 341 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 170 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 182 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 154 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 207 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 172 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 160 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53


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