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SC: What you are essentially saying here is that, in the case of Wilberforce, the end justified the means.

CM: No. I'm saying that, along with people like Wellington, Vyse and Trollope, all of whom made significant contributions to cultural and/or political life, Wilberforce parted with £8,000 in an effort to become an MP. People were so used to the system that they didn't even consider this bribery as such. They described them as 'the customary payments' - and some of the people who received these payments didn't even bother to vote.

SC: Do not kid yourself. These ‘customary payments’ were illegal and those who handed them out knew that. They also knew that if you got caught making electoral bribes, you could go to jail. Yes, it was a corrupt system. No one doubts that. But Howard-Vyse knew exactly what he was getting into. Tricky Dicky CHOSE to enter the corrupt electoral system in the full knowledge that to win the seat, he would have to fight dirty; he would have to buy votes; he would have to suspend his morality. It was a dirty place to be but he was more than willing to go there regardless of how corrupt a system it was. In short, Tricky Dicky was quite willing to act in a corrupt manner when ‘needs must’. Were he so principled he would have simply refused to enter into such a corrupt system.

And let us also not forget here that bribery was only one of the corrupt means employed by people such as Howard-Vyse. Elections at this time were not secret ballots. If a particular voter could not be ‘bought’ then other means were often employed – intimidation, violence or the threat of being evicted from their home or thrown out of their jobs. It takes a very particular type of person to go to such lengths – to do whatever it takes – to win the ballot. It may not have come to that in Howard-Vyse’s case but it COULD have and he would have known that beforehand; he would have known before standing that he would have to be prepared to stoop to such low means if that is what was needed in order to win. And he would have considered all of these potential difficulties and strong-arm tactics BEFORE standing. And still it did not deter him. A real wholesome, lovely man that Tricky Dicky.

Quote

SC: But it is the ‘means’ that is the issue here – not the end result. Both Howard-Vyse and Wilberforce demonstrated their ability to blatantly and ruthlessly disregard the law of the land in order to obtain something they coveted. It is their absolute willingness to fight dirty and their ability to suspend their morality in order to achieve their goal that is the issue here, for that is the flawed character trait they both possessed and just because they may then have gone on to do some good, does not mean that this flawed character trait has been expunged from them.

CM: You forgot to include Pitt, Wellington, and many other members of the establishment operating in the particular political and social context at that time. Not all of them, of course, were as concerned with matters of morality and religion as Vyse and Wilberforce.

SC: See above. They all knew the dirty game they were getting involved in BEFOREHAND and they all understood how dirty they might have to be, the lengths they might have to go to (bribery, intimidation, violence, threats of eviction from home and job) in order to secure victory. Do not kid yourself otherwise.

Quote

CM: Vyse, not particularly concerned about how he got into Parliament, left after a couple of years, and later went on to discover ancient quarry marks in Khufu's pyramid.

SC:You're quite right - Howard-Vyse wasn't particularly concerned about how he got into Parliament and that lack of concern would manifest itself by him employing whatever means necessary to get himself there which often included bribery, intimidation, violence, threats of eviction from home and job. In short, Tricky Dicky suspended his morality in order to get into Parliament, to get what he coveted. That he has demonstrated his ability and willingness to do so once when 'needs must' then he most certainly could do so again whenever ‘needs must’. THAT is the point.

SC



Post Edited (13-May-13 11:59)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 994 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 466 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 435 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 427 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 431 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 490 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 441 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 385 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 425 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 443 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 344 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 401 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 420 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 430 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 509 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 441 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 379 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 465 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 408 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 406 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 353 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 402 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 482 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 429 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 397 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 396 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 467 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 426 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 481 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 475 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 410 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 467 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 363 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 424 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 421 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 399 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 416 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 405 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 367 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 447 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 495 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 518 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 345 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 426 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 469 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 448 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 392 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 414 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 342 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 439 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 438 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 457 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 419 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 485 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 423 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 428 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 464 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 445 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 428 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 462 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 486 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 354 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 431 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 390 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 400 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 558 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 316 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 362 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 447 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 457 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 399 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 417 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 417 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 492 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 451 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 381 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 384 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 385 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 382 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 403 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 392 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 407 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 440 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 412 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 368 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 345 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 432 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 410 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 402 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 426 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 429 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 407 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 409 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 360 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 376 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 397 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 386 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 437 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 311 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 402 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 377 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 357 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 346 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 340 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 398 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 381 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 373 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 454 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 396 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 372 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 247 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 416 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 391 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 408 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 398 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 370 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 400 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 329 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 403 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 398 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 373 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 347 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 370 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 413 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 400 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 304 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 363 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 350 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 345 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 399 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 402 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 323 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 352 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 543 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 393 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 407 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 730 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 587 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 457 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 393 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 369 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 468 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 362 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 397 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 437 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 372 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 400 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 406 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 397 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 417 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 282 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 320 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 328 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 371 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 394 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 356 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 330 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 275 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 265 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 271 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 306 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 199 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 349 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 394 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 315 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 308 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 332 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 283 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 265 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 216 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 175 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 175 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 186 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 161 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 247 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 211 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 199 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 181 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 224 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 184 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 218 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 161 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 187 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 160 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 121 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 108 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 150 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 167 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 169 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 173 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 159 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 206 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 151 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 150 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 146 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 141 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 152 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 144 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 131 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 157 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 170 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 171 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 219 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 242 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 257 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 283 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 273 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 177 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 193 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 159 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 168 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 192 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 162 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 162 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 193 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 178 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 244 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 175 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 207 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 324 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 148 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 166 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 130 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 170 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 154 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 139 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53


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