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SC: What you are essentially saying here is that, in the case of Wilberforce, the end justified the means.

CM: No. I'm saying that, along with people like Wellington, Vyse and Trollope, all of whom made significant contributions to cultural and/or political life, Wilberforce parted with £8,000 in an effort to become an MP. People were so used to the system that they didn't even consider this bribery as such. They described them as 'the customary payments' - and some of the people who received these payments didn't even bother to vote.

SC: Do not kid yourself. These ‘customary payments’ were illegal and those who handed them out knew that. They also knew that if you got caught making electoral bribes, you could go to jail. Yes, it was a corrupt system. No one doubts that. But Howard-Vyse knew exactly what he was getting into. Tricky Dicky CHOSE to enter the corrupt electoral system in the full knowledge that to win the seat, he would have to fight dirty; he would have to buy votes; he would have to suspend his morality. It was a dirty place to be but he was more than willing to go there regardless of how corrupt a system it was. In short, Tricky Dicky was quite willing to act in a corrupt manner when ‘needs must’. Were he so principled he would have simply refused to enter into such a corrupt system.

And let us also not forget here that bribery was only one of the corrupt means employed by people such as Howard-Vyse. Elections at this time were not secret ballots. If a particular voter could not be ‘bought’ then other means were often employed – intimidation, violence or the threat of being evicted from their home or thrown out of their jobs. It takes a very particular type of person to go to such lengths – to do whatever it takes – to win the ballot. It may not have come to that in Howard-Vyse’s case but it COULD have and he would have known that beforehand; he would have known before standing that he would have to be prepared to stoop to such low means if that is what was needed in order to win. And he would have considered all of these potential difficulties and strong-arm tactics BEFORE standing. And still it did not deter him. A real wholesome, lovely man that Tricky Dicky.


SC: But it is the ‘means’ that is the issue here – not the end result. Both Howard-Vyse and Wilberforce demonstrated their ability to blatantly and ruthlessly disregard the law of the land in order to obtain something they coveted. It is their absolute willingness to fight dirty and their ability to suspend their morality in order to achieve their goal that is the issue here, for that is the flawed character trait they both possessed and just because they may then have gone on to do some good, does not mean that this flawed character trait has been expunged from them.

CM: You forgot to include Pitt, Wellington, and many other members of the establishment operating in the particular political and social context at that time. Not all of them, of course, were as concerned with matters of morality and religion as Vyse and Wilberforce.

SC: See above. They all knew the dirty game they were getting involved in BEFOREHAND and they all understood how dirty they might have to be, the lengths they might have to go to (bribery, intimidation, violence, threats of eviction from home and job) in order to secure victory. Do not kid yourself otherwise.


CM: Vyse, not particularly concerned about how he got into Parliament, left after a couple of years, and later went on to discover ancient quarry marks in Khufu's pyramid.

SC:You're quite right - Howard-Vyse wasn't particularly concerned about how he got into Parliament and that lack of concern would manifest itself by him employing whatever means necessary to get himself there which often included bribery, intimidation, violence, threats of eviction from home and job. In short, Tricky Dicky suspended his morality in order to get into Parliament, to get what he coveted. That he has demonstrated his ability and willingness to do so once when 'needs must' then he most certainly could do so again whenever ‘needs must’. THAT is the point.


Post Edited (13-May-13 11:59)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 1020 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 477 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 444 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 437 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 440 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 502 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 457 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 396 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 439 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 454 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 356 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 412 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 433 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 442 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 526 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 451 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 389 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 476 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 427 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 419 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 364 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 414 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 497 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 439 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 407 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 407 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 477 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 434 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 495 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 487 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 421 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 477 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 373 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 432 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 413 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 428 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 416 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 379 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 460 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 506 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 535 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 356 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 436 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 480 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 457 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 402 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 426 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 352 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 449 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 450 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 472 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 430 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 502 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 439 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 475 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 454 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 438 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 472 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 497 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 373 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 442 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 401 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 410 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 588 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 332 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 373 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 463 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 467 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 410 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 428 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 430 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 509 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 462 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 391 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 411 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 396 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 393 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 412 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 405 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 427 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 452 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 423 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 378 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 358 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 443 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 420 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 411 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 437 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 443 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 418 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 422 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 373 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 388 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 407 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 397 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 452 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 321 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 414 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 388 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 369 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 359 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 352 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 410 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 392 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 394 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 465 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 408 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 382 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 258 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 435 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 401 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 418 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 408 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 380 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 410 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 342 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 413 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 409 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 382 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 358 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 381 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 428 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 414 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 315 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 373 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 361 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 355 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 410 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 412 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 336 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 362 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 553 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 404 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 427 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 754 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 606 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 470 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 413 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 378 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 481 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 377 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 408 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 448 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 392 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 419 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 417 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 409 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 428 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 299 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 330 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 338 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 382 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 406 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 368 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 340 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 286 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 279 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 289 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 317 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 210 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 359 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 428 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 337 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 317 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 346 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 298 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 275 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 227 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 191 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 185 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 198 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 173 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 257 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 221 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 210 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 193 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 236 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 201 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 243 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 170 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 205 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 171 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 135 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 121 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 160 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 183 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 180 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 184 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 170 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 219 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 163 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 170 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 157 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 153 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 162 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 156 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 144 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 168 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 184 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 182 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 248 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 253 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 271 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 296 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 284 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 191 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 204 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 169 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 181 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 203 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 172 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 172 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 202 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 188 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 272 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 189 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 217 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 334 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 159 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 176 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 143 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 185 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 166 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 151 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53

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