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SC: What you are essentially saying here is that, in the case of Wilberforce, the end justified the means.

CM: No. I'm saying that, along with people like Wellington, Vyse and Trollope, all of whom made significant contributions to cultural and/or political life, Wilberforce parted with £8,000 in an effort to become an MP. People were so used to the system that they didn't even consider this bribery as such. They described them as 'the customary payments' - and some of the people who received these payments didn't even bother to vote.

SC: Do not kid yourself. These ‘customary payments’ were illegal and those who handed them out knew that. They also knew that if you got caught making electoral bribes, you could go to jail. Yes, it was a corrupt system. No one doubts that. But Howard-Vyse knew exactly what he was getting into. Tricky Dicky CHOSE to enter the corrupt electoral system in the full knowledge that to win the seat, he would have to fight dirty; he would have to buy votes; he would have to suspend his morality. It was a dirty place to be but he was more than willing to go there regardless of how corrupt a system it was. In short, Tricky Dicky was quite willing to act in a corrupt manner when ‘needs must’. Were he so principled he would have simply refused to enter into such a corrupt system.

And let us also not forget here that bribery was only one of the corrupt means employed by people such as Howard-Vyse. Elections at this time were not secret ballots. If a particular voter could not be ‘bought’ then other means were often employed – intimidation, violence or the threat of being evicted from their home or thrown out of their jobs. It takes a very particular type of person to go to such lengths – to do whatever it takes – to win the ballot. It may not have come to that in Howard-Vyse’s case but it COULD have and he would have known that beforehand; he would have known before standing that he would have to be prepared to stoop to such low means if that is what was needed in order to win. And he would have considered all of these potential difficulties and strong-arm tactics BEFORE standing. And still it did not deter him. A real wholesome, lovely man that Tricky Dicky.


SC: But it is the ‘means’ that is the issue here – not the end result. Both Howard-Vyse and Wilberforce demonstrated their ability to blatantly and ruthlessly disregard the law of the land in order to obtain something they coveted. It is their absolute willingness to fight dirty and their ability to suspend their morality in order to achieve their goal that is the issue here, for that is the flawed character trait they both possessed and just because they may then have gone on to do some good, does not mean that this flawed character trait has been expunged from them.

CM: You forgot to include Pitt, Wellington, and many other members of the establishment operating in the particular political and social context at that time. Not all of them, of course, were as concerned with matters of morality and religion as Vyse and Wilberforce.

SC: See above. They all knew the dirty game they were getting involved in BEFOREHAND and they all understood how dirty they might have to be, the lengths they might have to go to (bribery, intimidation, violence, threats of eviction from home and job) in order to secure victory. Do not kid yourself otherwise.


CM: Vyse, not particularly concerned about how he got into Parliament, left after a couple of years, and later went on to discover ancient quarry marks in Khufu's pyramid.

SC:You're quite right - Howard-Vyse wasn't particularly concerned about how he got into Parliament and that lack of concern would manifest itself by him employing whatever means necessary to get himself there which often included bribery, intimidation, violence, threats of eviction from home and job. In short, Tricky Dicky suspended his morality in order to get into Parliament, to get what he coveted. That he has demonstrated his ability and willingness to do so once when 'needs must' then he most certainly could do so again whenever ‘needs must’. THAT is the point.


Post Edited (13-May-13 11:59)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 1069 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 499 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 464 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 469 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 469 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 546 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 507 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 417 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 466 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 480 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 376 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 454 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 459 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 466 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 551 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 471 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 412 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 515 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 451 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 445 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 392 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 464 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 522 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 460 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 427 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 426 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 511 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 456 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 527 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 530 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 443 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 499 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 397 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 461 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 455 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 451 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 404 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 491 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 548 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 562 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 377 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 457 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 502 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 502 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 429 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 467 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 385 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 470 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 477 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 496 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 470 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 544 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 466 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 464 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 508 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 491 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 457 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 490 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 518 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 394 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 459 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 422 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 618 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 353 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 393 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 495 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 486 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 431 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 459 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 452 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 534 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 482 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 425 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 427 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 415 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 415 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 427 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 423 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 448 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 497 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 445 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 394 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 381 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 458 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 439 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 430 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 457 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 460 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 436 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 443 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 406 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 409 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 425 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 424 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 471 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 338 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 453 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 406 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 394 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 387 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 369 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 433 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 411 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 416 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 496 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 428 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 401 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 278 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 457 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 422 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 436 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 429 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 400 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 431 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 369 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 432 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 429 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 407 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 383 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 399 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 449 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 437 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 333 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 393 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 380 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 378 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 442 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 427 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 367 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 382 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 587 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 427 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 446 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 811 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 673 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 500 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 396 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 525 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 406 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 426 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 466 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 427 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 443 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 447 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 448 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 327 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 352 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 356 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 407 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 424 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 382 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 361 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 306 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 306 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 313 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 343 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 257 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 383 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 451 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 367 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 335 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 379 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 324 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 297 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 246 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 218 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 214 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 215 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 194 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 277 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 246 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 232 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 215 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 253 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 221 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 270 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 190 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 226 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 219 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 153 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 143 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 177 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 210 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 201 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 205 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 187 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 235 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 181 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 193 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 186 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 174 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 180 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 181 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 161 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 185 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 215 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 200 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 266 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 270 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 295 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 332 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 305 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 236 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 224 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 186 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 202 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 222 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 191 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 190 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 222 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 214 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 294 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 208 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 242 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 355 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 183 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 192 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 167 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 217 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 188 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 171 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53

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