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Scott Creighton wrote:

> What you are essentially saying here is that, in the case of
> Wilberforce, the end justified the means.

No. I'm saying that, along with people like Wellington, Vyse and Trollope, all of whom made significant contributions to cultural and/or political life, Wilberforce parted with £8,000 in an effort to become an MP. People were so used to the system that they didn't even consider this bribery as such. They described them as 'the customary payments' - and some of the people who received these payments didn't even bother to vote.

> But it is the ‘means’
> that is the issue here – not the end result. Both Howard-Vyse
> and Wilberforce demonstrated their ability to blatantly and
> ruthlessly disregard the law of the land in order to obtain
> something they coveted. It is their absolute willingness to
> fight dirty and their ability to suspend their morality in
> order to achieve their goal that is the issue here, for that is
> the flawed character trait they both possessed and just because
> they may then have gone on to do some good, does not mean that
> this flawed character trait has been expunged from them.

You forgot to include Pitt, Wellington, and many other members of the establishment operating in the particular political and social context at that time. Not all of them, of course, were as concerned with matters of morality and religion as Vyse and Wilberforce.

Wilberforce, not particularly concerned about how he got into Parliament, led the fight for the abolition of slavery once he was there.

Vyse, not particularly concerned about how he got into Parliament, left after a couple of years, and later went on to discover ancient quarry marks in Khufu's pyramid.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 957 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 437 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 407 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 400 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 404 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 460 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 415 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 359 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 400 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 418 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 317 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 376 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 393 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 404 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 473 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 412 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 354 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 439 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 381 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 372 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 325 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 370 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 458 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 400 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 368 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 369 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 439 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 399 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 450 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 446 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 383 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 439 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 333 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 395 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 393 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 374 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 390 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 376 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 336 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 418 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 466 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 485 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 317 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 396 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 439 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 416 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 363 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 385 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 324 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 409 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 412 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 429 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 391 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 449 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 393 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 398 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 416 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 396 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 436 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 458 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 324 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 403 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 377 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 373 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 528 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 278 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 337 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 420 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 432 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 375 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 383 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 392 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 467 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 417 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 356 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 356 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 359 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 357 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 377 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 367 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 380 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 411 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 390 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 345 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 321 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 399 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 386 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 391 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 404 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 394 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 383 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 385 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 332 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 354 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 374 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 362 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 412 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 291 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 375 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 352 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 332 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 320 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 317 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 374 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 357 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 346 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 427 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 373 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 345 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 224 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 391 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 370 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 382 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 375 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 352 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 377 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 314 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 378 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 376 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 349 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 321 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 345 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 392 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 371 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 281 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 339 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 322 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 330 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 374 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 380 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 298 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 327 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 512 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 357 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 381 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 690 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 542 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 369 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 345 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 337 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 370 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 412 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 340 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 372 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 379 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 372 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 389 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 257 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 297 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 315 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 347 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 366 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 329 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 301 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 250 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 240 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 237 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 281 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 175 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 324 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 367 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 294 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 281 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 305 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 261 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 240 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 191 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 149 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 148 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 162 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 138 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 211 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 186 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 173 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 156 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 197 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 157 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 181 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 136 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 162 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 135 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 98 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 84 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 116 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 140 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 145 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 146 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 135 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 179 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 127 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 122 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 124 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 118 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 130 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 120 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 107 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 132 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 142 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 147 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 183 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 217 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 232 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 257 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 238 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 152 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 166 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 132 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 146 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 170 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 138 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 134 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 166 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 151 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 215 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 153 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 184 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 299 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 124 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 140 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 108 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 145 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 130 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 113 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53


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