>Archae Solenhofen wrote:
>>So what is so advanced here.... other than the use of a drag
>>saw connected to a pendulum and the ability to work rock by
>>traditional methods with skill?
>There is no evidence of Moores copper pendulum drag saw or the
>holes he envisions must have accompanied them
Moores (1991) presents evidence that they were used at Giza from the tool marks on the basalt pavement.
Here is an example of such (although this looks like one of the straight striation examples):
Moores, R.G. (1991) Evidence for use of a stone-cutting drag saw by the fourth dynasty Egyptians. JARCE, 28, 139-148.
>and none of the
>pictures I have shown except for possibly the one lone cut,
>though unlikely, have anything to do with a drag saw.
Why is it unlikely..... this block is not granite, it is basalt (no quartz, it would be easier to cut with a lapidary saw using quartz abrasive than granite). In the appendix of Moores (1991) the basalt is described as altered in it's glassy matrix to clays and iron oxides about 5-30%. One would think this rock is even easier to work as a result of that. These blocks were dressed and then placed in the pavement.... so the block was not necessarily in that position when it was cut and then stopped at some point in the process for whatever reason. There are saw marks on these blocks as well as percussion scars from stone hammers (this is dominant).
Photo by Jon Bodsworth
>bottom picture is clear evidence of a circular saw and there
>are other examples of circular blade cuts at Abu Roash.
A drag saw blade shaped like the curve of a circle on a single pendulum could produce curricular arcs too when drawn back and forth........ Hey, I am not against small hand-powered circular saws, it's a pretty simple concept...... it's the absurd 11 meter in diameter pyramid-powered ones of Dunn (2008) that I have a problem with. That is what that second image you posted is trying to suggest..... since it is from that article.
Dunn, C. (2008) Megasaws of the Pyramid Builders. Atlantis Rising, 7-8, 32-33.
>Egyptologist John Romer says this magic copper drag saw must
>have had a blade at least 13ft long. It took Stocks 14hrs to
>cut a depth of 1.2" in Aswan granite using copper saws which
>means it would take 4 months working 8hrs a day 7 days a week
>to cut just one 3' x 3' x 3' granite block.
So...... 10 years of work on granite casing stone (they would work on stone casing procurement and dressing while the pyramid was being built) yields 30 blocks one meter cubed for the first-time amateur team that never improves. Do you really think the multible teams of workers were not better trained and better skilled than Stocks (2001) was? If you have read Moores (1991) you should know how the basalt pavement at the Great Pyramid was not exclusively worked with saws..... other methods were also employed. In some cases the saw was just used to trim off protrusions from stone percussion scars on an already reasonably flat surface. During the New Kingdom they sentenced criminals to working granite so it's not like they could not of had a supply of permanent worker on more than just 8-hour shifts to help out there if they were also doing this during the Old Kingdom.
Stocks, D.A. (2001) Testing ancient Egyptian granite-working methods in Aswan. Upper Egypt, Antiquity, 75, 89-94.
>He got less then
>1"/hr with a bow drill on granite but estimates the awesome
>Egyptians could have gotten as much as a whopping 4-5"/hr.
Other than hollowing sarcophagi, door sockets, and a few other tasks the coring of granite and other hardrocks was not that widely used in masonry. It was used mostly in stone vessel manufacturing.
>Lehner estimates the Egyptians would have needed hundreds of
>thousands if not millions of copper chisels requiring
>"unimaginable" amounts of wood to continuously reshape them and
Where does he claim this because in Lehner (1997 p211) he states hundred to thousand were needed to finely dress the Tura limestone casing on the 4th dynasty pyramids (copper and copper alloy chisels don't work on granite)? The vast majority of the core limestone masonry is not finely dressed so chisels were not much used there either.......
Lehner, M. (1997) The Complete Pyramids: Solving the Ancient Mysteries. Thames and Hudson, London, 256 pp.
>we are to add hundreds if not thousands of 13ft copper saws
>to this total?
So....... it's not like it was a wasted. What they could not recycle from granite cutting they could make into faience with the tailings (Stocks 1997). BTW, not all the granite was cut/dressed with lapidary saws.... it can be shaped with stone pounders and then levigated, like is observed on unfinished obelisks. The lapidary saw was one of a number of tools they used for working granite into blocks......
Stocks, D.A. (1997) Derivation of ancient Egyptian faience core and glaze materials, Antiquity, 71, 179-82
>And what about these copper tubular drills that
>like the pendulum saw no one can find?
The technological level to produce them was know and the marks they produce are evidenced on artifact, after artifact, after artifact. It is pretty clear that the coring drill arose out of stone mace and vessel manufacturing that was going on for about 500-1000 year before the Great Pyramids was built.
>Hundreds? Thousands? Was
>there even enough copper in Egypt for one, or wood for that
>matter, but regardless there would have needed to have been
>several smelting/manufacturing plants running constantly as
>well as hundreds if not not thousands of portable smelting
>stations to reshape the chisels at the work site which are no
>where to be seen either.
First I think you need to recheck that 100s of thousands to millions of chisels claim........
>And why is it the carpentry tool kit is present since
>pre-dynastic times in relative abundance either physically or
>pictorially, and yet this same tool kit Egyptologists modify to
>try and impose on stone working is nowhere to be found?
Some of it is..... for example the hieroglyphic symbol for "craft/art" during the Old Kingdom is a stone boring tool (Stocks 1993).
Stocks, D.A. (1993) Making Stone vessels in Ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt. Antiquity, 67, 596-603.
>about the imaginary lapidary slabbing saws you have invented
>for the AE though by your own article they didn't appear in
>China until 1900-1600BC and used a coiled bronze wire blade? No
>evidence of those either or Stocks bow drill.
No, it's based on the fact that the ancient Egyptian understood what a saw was and the hieroglyphic above indicated that they understood that rock could be cut by grinding...... it's not that much of a leap to imaging they had the intellect to put these 2 simple concepts together to produce the cut rocks with tool marks that are completely consistent with such.
>The problem is
>not just that the imaginary tool kit that alternative
>proponents suggest that can't be found, its the imaginary tool
>kit the orthodox have invented for them that is missing as
>well. Not to mention the copper and wood industry required to
>make and maintain them.
It's not all missing a lot of the other less expensive tools are still around.... At least the ancient Egyptians understood what saws and drills were and how to make copper and bronze tools during the 4th dynasty. There is absolutely no evidence other than the blocks themselves that 11 m in diameter mega-saws, powered by the pyramid, and made of advance metals ever existed at all...... absolutely nothing.
>Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not a proponent of ancient
>aliens or electric power tools to explain the machining though
>it is obvious there is more going on here than just copper
>chisels, bow saws, and sticks and string. At the very least,
>for a start, they must have used the wheel for various purposes
>in the construction process and had access to a sufficient
>amount of bronze tools.
There are known bronze and arsenic copper alloy tools and other artifacts from the Old Kingdom, and a depiction of a wheeled scaling ladder (with axle) from the 5th dynasty as well.
>Apparently Peitrie agrees "[their
>tools]... comprised bronze saws over eight feet long, set with
>jewels, tubular drills similarly set with jewels, and circular
>saws. " Maybe not jewels, but how about pounded quartz?
No one believes what Petrie claimed in his early book in this regards and since he never claimed that again, even in his other books on rock worked objects, one would think he no longer did either. Petrie makes a number of other claims in that early book in regards to worked rocks, some of them are not correct......
Pounded quartz..... how is that suppose to work?
>The AE, at the least, had extensive trade contact with
>Mesopotamians prior to Dynastic times and through the OK whom
>already had the wheel and used bronze tools for a more than
>1000yrs before Khufu's time and yet the Egyptians remained
>magically oblivious to it despite the fact they too had wheels
>in one form or another as well as bronze artifacts? The
>Mesopotamians also widely used oxen as beasts of burden well
>before and during this time as did the Egyptians yet they
>didn't bother using them when it came to pyramid building? It
>is impossible they remained willfully ignorant of these
>technologies and highly likely their introduction in
>pre-dynastic times by Mesopotamians was a key factor in the
>explosion of Egyptian stone working in the first place. If all
>the other higher tools are missing it shouldn't be much of a
>stretch that these would be absent as well especially the
>bronze tools which no doubt were costly and highly prized
>property of the state kept in government stores and one of the
>first things to be plundered and recycled.
Bronze may help a bit with the limestone chisels. Lapidary saws work well with copper, it's an ideal lapping material still used today. Do you really think that extreme added expense is going to help that much here? Remember, it's not the metal that does the cutting it's the abrasive that the metal drags along with it that does.
>If we add the wheel, beasts of burden, and substitute copper
>tools for bronze there is much less need to keep pounding a
>square peg into a round hole as Egyptologists insist on doing.
They are not..... since stone precaution tools can be used for most of the rough dressing of rocks (and in some cases fine dressing...... this has been shown by a number of experimental researchers such as Stock (2003) and Zuber (1956). The chisels were mostly used for fine dressing of limestone.
Stocks, D. (2003) Experiments in Egyptian Archaeology: Stoneworking Technology in Ancient Egypt. Routledge, New York, 336 p.
Zuber, A. (1956) Techniques du travail des pierres dures dans 1'Ancienne tgypte. Techniques et Civilisations, V, pp. 161-80, 195-215.
>How many copper chisels does one bronze chisel replace? 10?
>100? 1000? How many men are replaced by a gang of oxen? Back
>breaking pounders or percussion drill?
It's called a flint pecking hammer (its a simple version of the modern bush hammer used in stone carving) and the AEs used that simple but effective tool as well as others to finely carve statues, hieroglyphics. etc..
>If we accept the obvious
>countless thousands of man hours and tons of imaginary wood
>instantly disappear making an implausible situation a lot more
>palatable. No ancient aliens required, just common sense.
I suggest you read Nicholson & Shaw (2000) it will help you fine tune your common sense since it discusses in considerable detail the material and technologies known to the ancient Egyptian civilization.
Nicholson, P.T. & Shaw, I. (2000) Ancient Egyptian materials and techniques. Cambridge University Press, New York, 702 p.
Archae Solenhofen (firstname.lastname@example.org)