> My starting point is to ask whether the idea of a global
> civilization, existing before the "Noah" flood, can be easily
> refuted by the experts here? As far as i can tell this is a
> strong mix of valuable opinions on the forum and I can't find a
> post that looks at this question from a high level.
There is a little more to this question that needs to be addressed. What the mainstream cannot refute is the growing body of evidence that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt civilization existed well before recorded history. Gobekli Tepe does this by itself, but there are several other intermediary sites and cultures leading to it, not to mention the re-dating of existing sites, that all add to the greater picture.
The first questions that need answering is when was the Great Flood and what exactly was it; either a local, regional, or global phenomenon. For various reasons, most posit this was sometime circa 10,000BC.
We know that up until around 6,000BC there have been several massive local, regional, and transoceanic floods by various means that all could conceivably be candidates for the origin of the global flood myths. The mass extinctions of mega fauna did not happen all at once, but gradually or by punctuated events from a period of 122,000-7,000 years ago with the largest event occurring sometime around 12,000yrs ago. Human activity also seems to have come to a crawl around this time.
There are two recognized global rapid sea level rise events, one around 12,500BC and the other around 6,500BC, in which sea levels rose 30-10ft respectively in a relatively very short period of time. Overall sea levels rose approximately 400ft from 15,000-6,000BC.
All things considered, there is a credible case to be made this event could have occurred sometime around 10,000BC. The Gobekli Tepe culture pops up in Turkey absent of prior development around 9,000BC. The GTC represents the re-emergence, for some reason, of a sophisticated culture that no doubt must have existed in some form for several hundred if not thousands of years before.
With all that being said, there is also a compelling case to be made this event happened circa 6,000BC.
As we know, the same basic Flood myths are shared by nearly every ancient culture on every continent. Given the uncanny similarities of the tales, the only logical conclusion is that the story has a common origin passed down from one culture to the next eventually carried around the world and incorporated into local traditions. What this tells me is it is more likely the whole world did not suffer this fate, but rather only the "known world" of the original source of the story. If this is the case, which I personally suspect it is, there is only one place this could have occurred and that is the greater Mediterranean region.
This idea [the Black Sea Flooding event c. 5500BC] was first put forward by Geologists Walter Pitman and William Ryan, and despite conflicting ideas offered by other professionals, on balance I believe a confluence of congruous events among other things prove Ryan and Pitman correct.
It is known that around 6,000BC a monstrous section of Mt Etna in Sicily fell into the Mediterranean sea resulting in one of the largest tsunamis in Earth history. This event wiped out much of the Eastern Mediterranean coastline and no doubt had a serious impact on all coastal regions of the Mediterranean not to mention poor little Malta. This event would certainly have been powerful enough to burst through the Bosphorous straights and flood the Black Sea. I have not done the research yet, but it seems to me an event of this magnitude would also swell the Nile potentially flooding large northern areas along its bank including Giza. There is also continuing research of the Black Sea that has recently found much evidence of former coast lines and prehistoric habitation that date to this time.
Another event in the region around 6,000BC, the massive Storegga slide tsunami, caused the sudden disappearance of the remaining landmass connecting the U.K to Europe known as Doggerland. Recent discoveries are finding ample evidence of pre-historic settlements in the submerged area and I suspect it will not be too long before megalithic structures will be reported as well.
I would also note Malta at this point because its dating has obvious implications regarding the greater Mediterranean region and megalithic builder culture as a whole. The megalithic ruins of Malta are mainstream dated at most to 3,500BC but there is no doubt they are much older. Other than the megaliths there are also what are called "cart ruts", namely miles of equidistant parallel groves cut into the island found not just on Malta, but its sister islands Gozo and Comino as well. These grooves run straight off cliffs on one end of the islands into the water at others with many running in the direction of the other islands. There can be no other conclusion than these grooves were not only cut by the same builders of the megaliths, but also at a time when the islands were connected which according to the placard at an exhibit at the Malta museum was around 6,000BC. This is at odds with other material I have read, but that is what they say in Malta. Interestingly, most scientists suggest the islands were connected around 10,000BC. Go figure. These same grooves are also found on Sicily as well which the Malta museum says was connected to Malta around 7,500BC.
There is also evidence the megaliths were bombarded by a tidal event, including the hypogeum which when first excavated was found filled with a mish-mash of hundreds of bones and skeletons that appear to have been stuffed in there by a flooding event. A mish-mash, among others, of both conehead and Cro-Magnon type skulls. Though beyond the scope of this writing, I would also note for the curious that the spiral motifs at Malta are IDENTICAL to those found in megalithic Ireland, and that they were also crazy about the "fat lady" or "venus figure" whose worship all but disappears in the ancient world around 6,000BC.
And yet ANOTHER event, suggested by a British scientist, which may be responsible for the sea rise at this time reported elsewhere, is that around 6,000BC Canada's ancient super-sized Lake Agassiz burst open into the Arctic or North Atlantic Ocean and not only rapidly increased global sea levels as a whole but flooded the Indian Ocean to such an extent that he suggests created much of the Persian Gulf that we see today. He believes this might also explain recent discoveries along the Persian Gulf coast of ancient shorelines and submerged advanced cultures with no apparent origin of development.
It appears circa 6,000BC there were several events in the greater Mediterranean region, among others namely two massive tsunamis that wiped out large land masses and flooded the Black Sea, the bursting of super-sized Lake Agassiz, as well as an event, probably lake Agassiz, that caused a sudden 10ft rise in sea levels. It was also at this time, around 6,000BC, that the ice-age had reached its glacial minimum and warmest climates which no doubt would have been the culmination of rapidly melting glaciers causing and adding to even more catastrophe. This suggests to me what we have at this time is one event after the other, chain reactions of events, resulting in massive floods of the "known world" all at or around the same exact time. Volcanoes, monsoons, tsunamis, earthquakes, violent weather patterns- all of these could be thrown into the mix.
To that end, while 10,000BC is possible, personally I find it more likely the story of the deluge stems from the events of 6,000BC. Before the deluge, we know civilization existed which I would suggest, like Malta, that most if not all of megalithic Europe dates prior to this time. And after the deluge, we find Sumer, Egypt, European cultures, and the rest of civilization as we know it, no doubt the remnants of those that came before.
Taking mainstream dating at face value, if you are looking for evidence prior to 10,000BC of advanced civilization you will be left wanting, though no doubt there are some that are surprisingly sophisticated for what is expected like the Dolní Věstonice Cro-Magnon culture and to some extent the Jomon culture of Japan. Cro-Magnon is the key really, so anything related to high culture prior to this time begins and ends with him. I could ramble on to no end about Cro-Magnon, but I will leave it at that for now. The Gobekli Tepe culture leaves the door wide open, however, and personally I am expecting the 10,000BC threshold to get pushed way back. Because of them I really don't think we can assume anything at this point until we can find out where they are from and how far back they go.
Just a follow up to my previous post. I have argued before that the Flood Myths come from events that took place circa 6,000BC, not 10,500BC, which is why I suggest here the possibility the Sphinx and associated temples were built before this time and the rest finished after. I always thought there must be some evidence in the Nile Delta (i.e. Giza) that would support its inclusion in the catastrophic flood events of this time and low and behold I find this from John Romer's, the History of Ancient Egypt:
In distant prehistoric times, both the Nile's flow and intrusions into the [Mediterranean] sea into its delta had been so violent as to delete all record of earlier human activity [in the greater Delta/coastal regions]. In the seventh millenium BC [c. 6,000BC], for example, the Nile had flowed so fiercely through its delta that it had channeled into a single outflow into the Mediterranean, the so-called "Great River", which had run from due north from the ending of the valley's limestone cliffs.
He also says:
The ancient Nile was different from the modern river too, its flow much stronger than it would become in later phases of its history. In consequence, the beginning of the delta, where the fast, wide river broke into half a dozen different streams and spread out like a fan, was further south than it is at present, at a point where the valley cliffs nip close together near the pyramids of modern day Saqqara.
So, what he is saying is that c. 6,000BC the Nile not only flowed much stronger than it does today, but the beginning of the Delta began close to Sakkara, ergo south of Giza, and was victim to an event c. 6,000BC that caused the Delta to swell to such magnitude as to become one "Great River" leading to the Mediterranean, an event "so violent as to delete all record of earlier human activity".
I would suggest that the Nile Delta was getting it from both ends at this time, not only that its flow was greater, but also the catastrophic flooding that occurred in the Mediterranean c. 6,000BC that no doubt would have inundated the Delta impeding the Nile's flow causing it to swell even more and was probably the cause of the formation of the "Great River" in the first place.
Post Edited (30-Jun-15 01:57)
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02-Mar-17 04:08 by Thanos5150.