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Audrey wrote:

> [. . .] This glyph in Vyse's cartouche........
> looks like dashes to me. I couldn't believe it would be
> considered a sieve because the lines don't reach to the edge of
> the circle.

The (obsolete) notion that this character depicts a sieve goes back to Samuel Birch and Birch himself identified this specific instance as a sieve—so what’s your problem?

This is cursive script: scrappy, like handwriting very often is. How often do you see (say) a handwritten ‘A’ with the transverse line not meeting the others? Do you instantly declare that it’s not a real ‘A’?

For a source of valid comparisons, try (for one) Goedicke’s Old Hieratic Paleography.

The writing of “kh” (Gardiner Aa1) in the pyramid is unexceptional: for the lines not the reach the edge of the circle is commonplace in cursive renditions and is even sometimes seen in carved hieroglyphs.

> Martin Stower's incredibly pompous answer sent me
> searching. [. . .]

Already dealt with:

[www.grahamhancock.com]

> Wow! Mr. Knowitall seems to be saying it doesn't matter what
> glyph is used in Khufu, as long as it is a circle.

Audrey,

If you want to know what I’m saying, try asking me.

Don’t just make something up and then pretend that knocking down a straw man of your own creation is in some way faulting my statements.

I’m not saying any such thing: I know (I suspect rather better than you do) that there are lots of circular hieroglyphs.

Of these, Aa1 is almost certainly the most common. Why? Because it is an “alphabetical” character, representing a single consonant (and quite a common one in ancient Egyptian).

What I’m saying is quite specific: in monumental (carved, sculpted) hieroglyphs, Aa1 can appear as a lined disc or (in lesser detail) as an unlined disc. If you want a textbook source on this, try Allen, Middle Egyptian—and I find (looking at real examples and not just what you see in standard hieroglyphic fonts) that this goes back to the Old Kingdom.

> In the above he cites Gardiner's list [. . .]

Gardiner warns explicitly against overreliance on the forms given in standard hieroglyphic fonts.

> but doesn't mention #O48 in the same
> list under the category of "Buildings".
>

Because there was absolutely no reason to.

First of all, let’s look at a clearer picture:

[en.wikipedia.org]

—or:

[www.ccer.nl]

Gardiner O48 is a variant of O47. As regards meaning, it is the ideogram for Hierakonpolis (Nekhen)—which alone makes it quite an unlikely thing to appear within a royal name.

The character presents two (always two) short vertical lines within the circle. This is not what we see in the pyramid: what we see there is three horizontal lines (horizontal relative to the inscription).

> Wallis Budge also has
> this........
> Evidently the experts also notice differences.

Here we have the Budge effect—or, more generally, the effect of looking at older sources.

At 14 we see how one of the older hieroglyphic fonts represented a late form of the hieroglyph which appears in Gardiner’s list as O50. The earlier form (as found in more recent fonts—and by “more recent” I mean “going back decades”) is a circle with multiple dots within it, a stylised representation of a threshing floor. It appears as a deterimative in the writing of the word for threshing floor, spt and seems on that basis to have acquired the phonetic value sp—and hence appears as a “phonetic determinative” in the writing of the word sp and its cognates. Sometimes (variant writings) it represents the word all by itself.

The version shown by Budge being a late form rules it out at once as a reading of the character in the pyramid (but hey, if you wants to read the name as “Spoofu”, go right ahead).

The character shown at 15 is merely the older font’s version of Gardiner’s Aa1—and clearly you already have a glimmering that such standardised representations are not the end of the story.

There are of course other circular hieroglyphs, but I’ll leave it to you to identify them and work out why they are non-candidates.

> Vyse's glyph had 3 dashes, but it is still not a sieve and not a Kh.

Doubtless you know better than Birch and Lepsius and everyone else who’s seriously studied the question.

> The cartouche questioned at Abydos HAS to read "Khufu". The
> solar disc must become Kh, there is too much at stake
> for the Egyptologist if it doesn't.

Audrey,

I suggest you read this:

[www.grahamhancock.com]

To summarise: in a preliminary survey of (good) photographs of the reliefs in the Temple of Seti at Abydos (the one with the list in it), every single identifiable instance of Aa1 is carved as a plain (unlined) disc.

So is every instance of N5 (“the solar disc”).

There is no sculptural difference between.

What we do find, where significant traces of paint remain, is that these two characters were painted different colours.

The most you can justifiably say about the disputed name in the list is that the round character within it is ambiguous.

> As Dr. Heinrich Brugsch Bey wrote:

Wow, Audrey, you’re really pushing the boat out on finding up-to-date sources, aren’t you?

[SNIP]

> They
> only have 5 king lists to establish the chronology and these
> are riddled with problems. If they can't reconcile these with
> Manetho, they don't have a name for THE pyramid builder.

Non sequitur: identification of Khufu as the builder of the pyramid Akhet Khufu is in no way dependent on the king lists. (Note the clue in the name.)

[SNIP]

> Here's a clever description about this problem from an article in Blackwood's Edinburgh magazine:

[SNIP]

We can cut to the chase on that source; here’s how the diatribe ends:



Your chosen source is a musty old exercise in cramped and fanatical religious apologetics: a crude exercise in the worst kind of anti-scholarly obscurantism. No author is specified, but it seems to be written, if not by John Taylor himself, then by someone of his school: you know, the people who claimed the pyramid was built by Biblical Patriarchs (or somesuch), under Divine Inspiration.

> Thank God we have the ancient authors who are the only
> ones to name the builders of the pyramids.

Wrong. There’s the Debehen inscription. There’s what’s implied by the names of the pyramids. There’s what’s implied by the names found in the pyramid complexes. There’s what’s implied by the names, relationships and titles of those in the surrounding cemeteries. There’s the name of Djedefre, found in the boat pit. There’s the thing which people like you are usually so fond of mentioning, the Inventory Stela.

> HERODOTUS...5th century B.C. "The Father of History"
> tells us Cheops/Kheops built G1 about 800 B.C., followed by
> Chephren. Or, Philition a shepherd built both G1 and G2.
> DIODORUS....1st century B.C., tells us Chemmis built G1
> and Cephres or Chabbryis followed him.
> MANETHO.....3rd century B.C., supposedly said
> Suphis/Saophis/Chamois built G1.

Saophis is (approximately, in Roman characters) the form found in the list of Eratosthenes. Chamois? Sorry, where do you get the idea that this name is connected with the pyramid?

> But wait a minute. None of them use the name Khufu. No problem.
> All these names can BECOME Khufu.

Oh, come on. These are Grecianised forms. The ‘s’ of ‘Kheops’ and the ‘is’ of ‘Suphis’ are Greek terminals. Names are often changed, when adopted into other languages; consider Haïti (Ayiti), turned into “Hatey” in US pronunciation (which our news media seem to have adopted wholesale).

Likely the late vocalistion of the name was something like “Khuf” or “Shuf”.

> As the Blackwood article tells us:

Yeah, right: the religious diatribe.

> Saqqara has 56 legible cartouches, 35 have the solar disc at
> the top. Abydos has 76 legible cartouches, 64 have the solar
> disc at the top. Not sieves, not dots, not dashes, just empty
> circles. Can you think of 64 king name that begin with Kh? Or
> is it Sh or Su or Ch or X.

Likely none of them: a sound not found in the sound system of English, but present to a near approximation in Semitic languages (about the only thing Sher gets right).

> Where is Robert Langdon when you need him?
>
> Let's not forget the Arabic authors. They have quite a bit to
> say on the pyramids. Such as Saurid was king for 107 years and
> built all 3 gizamids. Others wrote they were built before the
> deluge.
>
> Why are they ignored?

This is just a guess, but archaic concepts like the deluge might be one reason.

> To make matters worse, Column 1 of Turin is a list of the
> bodies in our solar system. Column 2 starts with synchronizing
> the calendar. Then follows the list of kings. BUT it begins
> with over 36,000 years of rulers before the 1st dynasty. This
> period is labeled as a list of "spirits and mythical kings".
> AND Manetho, the Palermo stone, Herodotus, the Sumerians and
> Babylonians list from 18,000 to 30,000 years of rulers before
> the 1st dynasty. All are ignored.

No, they’re not ignored. They’re not believed, which is something quite different.

> And some say that those of us who question the Egyptologists
> pick and choose which info WE want to believe ! It is the
> Egyptologists who have been a pickin & choosin.

Good for them: they sound like sensible people.

> According to Hawass, the entire inscription in Campbell's
> chamber reads from left to right:
> THE GANG - PRINCE OF - KHUFU If read from right to left it
> would be:
> KHUFU - PRINCE OF - THE GANG

According to Hawass where exactly? Could we have a cite for this?

The inscription reads from right to left: left to right would be backwards. The animal characters are a clue.

> Sounds like a superintendent of a construction crew.

Given the spurious reading “prince of” and ignoring the royal cartouche, yes.

> In answer to Scott's question; I can't find anything in
> pre-Vyse literature using the name "Khufu". After Vyse, Khufu
> seems to show up everywhere as Manetho's Suphis.

Neither does the name “Khufu” appear in Vyse’s book: the nearest there is Birch’s “Shoufou (Suphis) or Khoufou (Cheops)”—which is read from the hieroglyphs, not sought in advance of them.

> If you look closely at Vyse's cartouche, you'll see many red
> spots inside and out of the cartouche. Am I imagining things or
> was something erased, washed, doctored?

Yes, you are imagining things. It’s a scrappy, cursive inscription, very much like other scrappy, cursive inscriptions of the same general kind—if anything, rather neater than some.

> And there doesn't seem
> to be any other chicks like these in the chambers.

Huh?

You have photographs?

They’re pretty standard, if Goedicke’s Old Hieratic Paleography is anything to go by (and I think it is).

M.

Options: ReplyQuote


Subject Views Written By Posted
Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 988 Audrey 31-Jan-10 07:05
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 523 Lothur 31-Jan-10 15:59
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 526 Merrell 31-Jan-10 16:19
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 518 Audrey 31-Jan-10 23:06
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 499 Merrell 01-Feb-10 09:31
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 556 Audrey 01-Feb-10 17:34
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 526 Merrell 02-Feb-10 20:41
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 529 Audrey 02-Feb-10 23:40
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 417 Merrell 03-Feb-10 13:42
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 516 Scott Creighton 03-Feb-10 14:58
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 564 Merrell 03-Feb-10 16:11
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 518 Scott Creighton 03-Feb-10 16:17
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 529 Merrell 03-Feb-10 16:23
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 554 Audrey 03-Feb-10 23:59
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 620 Merrell 04-Feb-10 16:56
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 483 Scott Creighton 04-Feb-10 18:38
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 500 Audrey 05-Feb-10 05:27
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 484 Merrell 05-Feb-10 08:54
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 394 Martin Stower 05-Feb-10 13:08
What's in a name? 541 Merrell 05-Feb-10 14:27
Re: What's in a name? 488 Martin Stower 05-Feb-10 14:56
Re: What's in a name? 477 Audrey 06-Feb-10 04:12
Re: What's in a name? 551 Merrell 06-Feb-10 14:26
Re: What's in a name? 495 Martin Stower 06-Feb-10 15:37
Re: What's in a name? 476 Audrey 08-Feb-10 05:19
Re: What's in a name? 522 Merrell 08-Feb-10 13:19
Re: What's in a name? 453 Audrey 10-Feb-10 03:09
Re: What's in a name? 681 Merrell 10-Feb-10 08:41
Re: What's in a name? 691 Martin Stower 08-Feb-10 18:42
Aegyptiacus (Birch) 481 Martin Stower 08-Feb-10 19:14
Typo fixed 522 Martin Stower 09-Feb-10 12:29
Re: What's in a name? 506 Merrell 08-Feb-10 20:55
Re: What's in a name? 603 Martin Stower 09-Feb-10 12:47
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 480 Lothur 02-Feb-10 02:27
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 538 Audrey 02-Feb-10 17:53
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 457 Vanya 31-Jan-10 21:29
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 469 Jon B 01-Feb-10 11:51
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 864 Audrey 01-Feb-10 18:41
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 511 Jon B 01-Feb-10 19:44
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 545 Audrey 02-Feb-10 18:03
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 499 Martin Stower 01-Feb-10 15:57
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 480 Audrey 01-Feb-10 18:10
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 458 Martin Stower 01-Feb-10 18:55
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 514 Audrey 02-Feb-10 19:45
Re: The Fabulous Khufu's : ) 454 Thunderbird 03-Feb-10 05:14
Re: The Fabulous Khufu's : ) 513 Audrey 03-Feb-10 22:45
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 488 cladking 01-Feb-10 17:07
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 520 Audrey 01-Feb-10 17:37
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 793 Martin Stower 02-Feb-10 19:12
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 501 Lothur 03-Feb-10 02:47
No evidence for the Giza monuments 545 Elizabeth Newton 03-Feb-10 13:19
Re: No evidence for the Giza monuments 530 Audrey 03-Feb-10 22:48
Re: No evidence for the Giza monuments 480 Lothur 04-Feb-10 02:15
Re: No evidence for the Giza monuments 513 Elizabeth Newton 04-Feb-10 02:39
Re: No evidence for the Giza monuments 498 Lothur 04-Feb-10 04:12
Re: No evidence for the Giza monuments 581 Elizabeth Newton 04-Feb-10 05:15
Re: No evidence for the Giza monuments 446 sher 04-Feb-10 06:12
Re: No evidence for the Giza monuments 557 Elizabeth Newton 05-Feb-10 02:43
Re: No evidence for the Giza monuments 514 sher 05-Feb-10 16:51
A gift to Elizabeth 511 sher 05-Feb-10 23:07
Re: A gift to Elizabeth 532 sfbey 06-Feb-10 17:29
Re: A gift to Elizabeth 513 Elizabeth Newton 07-Feb-10 16:23
Re: A gift to Elizabeth 503 sher 08-Feb-10 14:35
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 525 Audrey 03-Feb-10 03:50
Lady Arbuthnot's Chamber inscriptions 651 sher 03-Feb-10 06:22
Re: Lady Arbuthnot's Chamber inscriptions 657 sher 03-Feb-10 06:33
Re: Lady Arbuthnot's Chamber inscriptions 502 sher 03-Feb-10 09:31
Re: Lady Arbuthnot's Chamber inscriptions 495 Martin Stower 03-Feb-10 15:15
May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 517 sher 03-Feb-10 16:01
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 483 Scott Creighton 03-Feb-10 16:21
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 462 sher 03-Feb-10 16:38
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 623 Scott Creighton 03-Feb-10 18:31
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 575 Martin Stower 03-Feb-10 18:37
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 468 Scott Creighton 04-Feb-10 00:26
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 567 Martin Stower 04-Feb-10 14:16
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 484 Scott Creighton 04-Feb-10 14:42
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 591 Martin Stower 03-Feb-10 17:03
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 513 sher 03-Feb-10 21:22
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 465 Martin Stower 04-Feb-10 13:59
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 470 sher 04-Feb-10 14:52
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 489 Martin Stower 04-Feb-10 17:34
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 530 sher 04-Feb-10 23:04
Reality check 559 Martin Stower 05-Feb-10 13:39
Re: Reality check 498 sher 05-Feb-10 16:20
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 602 Merrell 03-Feb-10 18:26
Re: May All Board Members Please Vote On This Important Matter 494 Audrey 04-Feb-10 00:09
voting is meaningless 505 Elizabeth Newton 04-Feb-10 05:19
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 522 Martin Stower 03-Feb-10 18:02
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 491 Drewski 03-Feb-10 12:25
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 458 sher 03-Feb-10 13:52
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 492 Audrey 03-Feb-10 23:20
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 567 Drewski 04-Feb-10 01:02
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 522 Lothur 04-Feb-10 02:01
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 475 sher 04-Feb-10 05:33
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 535 Lothur 04-Feb-10 13:21
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 646 sher 04-Feb-10 14:38
Not unique 391 Jon B 04-Feb-10 19:16
Re: Not unique 549 Dr. Troglodyte 04-Feb-10 20:59
Re: Not unique 516 sher 04-Feb-10 23:00
Re: Not unique 441 Archae Solenhofen 04-Feb-10 23:16
Re: Not unique 531 sher 05-Feb-10 00:28
Re: Not unique 487 Lothur 05-Feb-10 01:45
Re: Not unique 490 Audrey 05-Feb-10 05:33
Re: Not unique 451 Martin Stower 05-Feb-10 13:33
Re: Not unique 435 Lothur 06-Feb-10 01:27
Re: Not unique 496 Audrey 06-Feb-10 05:36
Conspicuous by its absence 514 Elizabeth Newton 06-Feb-10 07:35
Re: Conspicuous by its absence 522 Lothur 06-Feb-10 15:55
Re: Not unique 476 Jon B 05-Feb-10 11:33
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 651 Elizabeth Newton 04-Feb-10 02:42
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 574 Jon B 04-Feb-10 17:29
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 485 Riaan 04-Feb-10 17:41
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 457 Martin Stower 04-Feb-10 18:01
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 578 Elizabeth Newton 05-Feb-10 07:54
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 390 Martin Stower 05-Feb-10 12:49
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 522 Audrey 05-Feb-10 06:08
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 498 Elizabeth Newton 05-Feb-10 08:04
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 511 Jon B 05-Feb-10 11:07
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 501 cladking 05-Feb-10 16:50
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 503 Jon B 05-Feb-10 17:25
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 528 cladking 05-Feb-10 17:35
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 546 Jon B 05-Feb-10 17:46
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 475 cladking 05-Feb-10 21:15
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 478 Audrey 06-Feb-10 05:58
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 490 cladking 06-Feb-10 06:58
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 536 Elizabeth Newton 05-Feb-10 07:51
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 449 Scott Creighton 05-Feb-10 10:31
And Also...... 588 Scott Creighton 05-Feb-10 11:02
Re: And Also...... 572 Elizabeth Newton 06-Feb-10 07:30
Re:Jackal Lake 551 Thunderbird 06-Feb-10 03:43
Re:Jackal Lake 476 Audrey 06-Feb-10 04:24
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 537 Scott Creighton 05-Feb-10 11:54
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 373 Audrey 06-Feb-10 05:05
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 521 cladking 06-Feb-10 05:35
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 505 Audrey 06-Feb-10 06:07
Re: Alleged Vyse Forgery - or - Inventing Khufu 516 Audrey 10-Feb-10 05:16


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