Mysteries :  The Official GrahamHancock.com forums
For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
Welcome! Log InRegister
HarryWJYoung wrote:

> Fisherman, I've been doing some cursory research on Jaynes and
> his bicameral mind theory. Controversial indeed.
>
> He postulates that the Greeks of the Iliad had no conscious
> mind, no introspection. I'm not clear on whether he means the
> fictional (or perhaps real, we may never know) characters or
> people generally of that time. If it's the latter then this is
> truly a fantastic notion. Certainly the principle characters of
> Greek mythology were, to a degree, pawns of the gods who carved
> out paths for them, but also they were set tasks by the gods
> which says to me that there must have been a strong element of
> freewill rather than destiny involved in the life of our
> heroes. Coming right down to earth, whenever a "real" person is
> set a task, either from an inner prompting or by a third party,
> introspection is one of the first and main traits called upon.
> Can I do this? What if I succeed? What if I fail? "Inner
> strength, where are you - AH! There you are!" The Ancient
> Greeks with their high minded philosophies must have asked
> these questions of themselves.
>
> Does Jaynes say that the bicameral mind is no longer present
> within modern humans, and that this is due to changes in
> environment? If true, this seems like a cataclysmic change in
> human consciousness, violent, quick, and profound. Is this
> really possible? Are we really to believe that introspection,
> with all its subtleties and refinements, is only a recent
> development in the evolution of human consciousness I'm not
> sure about all this.
>
> My interpretation of the Greek myths is that the gods
> represented both forces of nature and aspects of human
> consciousness. So when a hero hears a particular god speak to
> them it is really an aspect of their higher, inner spiritual
> self communicating with the human mind.
>

Unfortunately, Jaynes' ideas are based on some assumptions of the superiority of 'modernity' endemic among contemporary 'scientists' of all sorts. Namely that our modern modes of 'thinking' are somehow 'clearer' and 'better' than any other cultures of the past, and that our knowledge of the world -- and ourselves -- is more comprehensive than any cultures of the past. In other words, that 'modern' man is the pinnacle of history. This is what J. A. West frequently sneers about as 'The Church of Progress'.

You own speculation is close to what seems most correct to me, as far as we can undertsand this in our time and culture. What if the 'ego' consciousness of people in the past was not so rigid and closed off from the other parts of their 'minds'? Or dare we say 'soul' these days? They might have been able to perceive the 'unconscious' attitudes and drives within themselves and when learning how much they had in common with the same attributes of others they might have postulated 'universal' beings to explain those forces -- 'the gods'!

And btw, the word 'ego' is simply Latin for I and both Freud and Jung simply wrote their native German 'Ich' while English translations have felt the need to use the high-flown Latinized word in order to sound 'scientific'. Jung also usually used the German word for 'soul' (Seele) where the English translations use the pseudo-sophisticate 'psyche' -- again in order to sound 'scientific'. Funny how the original author didn't seem to need that high-flown technical terminology. But Jung has now been pretty successfully ghettoized into the 'New Age' movement and all those 'advanced' scientists don't have to try to figure out what he was saying anymore.



--
Like ancient Rome, we today are once more importing every form of exotic superstition in the hope of finding the right remedy for our sickness.
-- C. G. Jung
Richard Wilhelm: In Memoriam (1930), CW 15: pg. 60

Options: ReplyQuote


Subject Views Written By Posted
The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 236 HarryWJYoung 18-May-05 13:00
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 133 fisherman 18-May-05 14:20
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 153 HarryWJYoung 18-May-05 15:52
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 152 fisherman 18-May-05 16:29
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 180 HarryWJYoung 18-May-05 16:58
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 149 fisherman 18-May-05 17:17
Julian Jaynes' Ideas 130 HarryWJYoung 18-May-05 21:13
Re: Julian Jaynes' Ideas 177 fisherman 18-May-05 21:24
PS 168 fisherman 18-May-05 21:38
Re: PS 162 HarryWJYoung 18-May-05 21:49
Re: PS 144 fisherman 18-May-05 21:57
Re: PS 159 HarryWJYoung 18-May-05 22:07
Re: PS 159 fisherman 18-May-05 22:15
Re: PS 163 HarryWJYoung 18-May-05 22:37
Re: PS 148 fisherman 18-May-05 22:47
Re: PS 162 HarryWJYoung 18-May-05 22:51
Re: PS 157 infintesimal 18-May-05 22:05
Re: PS 160 fisherman 18-May-05 22:17
Re: PS 161 infintesimal 18-May-05 22:31
Agreed, NT 186 fisherman 18-May-05 22:34
Re: Julian Jaynes' Ideas 234 Nolondil 19-May-05 21:10
Re: Julian Jaynes' Ideas 183 fisherman 19-May-05 22:53
Re: Julian Jaynes' Ideas 155 HarryWJYoung 20-May-05 00:34
Re: Julian Jaynes' Ideas 135 Jerome 20-May-05 01:40
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 174 David L 18-May-05 14:29
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 153 HarryWJYoung 18-May-05 17:17
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 163 David L 18-May-05 19:05
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 144 Raja 23-May-05 22:34
Jeremy Narby highly recommended 242 Graham Hancock 23-May-05 22:58
Re: Jeremy Narby highly recommended 200 Raja 24-May-05 22:39
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 174 David L 24-May-05 03:02
Knowledge not shared is lost. 162 Raja 25-May-05 18:09
Re: Knowledge not shared is lost. 212 David L 25-May-05 23:31
A good shaman heals by hidden knowledge, not by magic... 149 Raja 26-May-05 19:05
Re: A good shaman heals by hidden knowledge, not by magic... 167 David L 26-May-05 19:20
Jacob's Ladder 167 Raja 26-May-05 22:34
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 131 infintesimal 24-May-05 22:27
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 157 David L 25-May-05 14:33
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 158 SunSword 18-May-05 14:33
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 158 HarryWJYoung 18-May-05 17:25
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 147 Farseeker 18-May-05 14:45
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 141 fisherman 18-May-05 14:50
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 155 HarryWJYoung 18-May-05 21:40
Synchronicity 160 Graham Hancock 18-May-05 16:19
Re: Synchronicity 161 HarryWJYoung 18-May-05 16:44
Re: Synchronicity 181 Graham Hancock 18-May-05 17:26
Re: Synchronicity 131 Houcad 18-May-05 17:46
Re: Synchronicity 132 Graham Hancock 19-May-05 08:36
Re: Synchronicity 131 fisherman 18-May-05 17:48
Re: Synchronicity 158 Graham Hancock 19-May-05 08:41
Re: Synchronicity 167 HarryWJYoung 18-May-05 17:49
Re: Synchronicity 126 infintesimal 18-May-05 19:43
Re: Synchronicity 161 infintesimal 18-May-05 20:34
Re: Synchronicity 176 Graham Hancock 18-May-05 21:18
Re: Synchronicity 156 Lee McGiffen 19-May-05 11:29
Re: Synchronicity 140 Michael Hayes 18-May-05 21:32
Re: Synchronicity 127 fisherman 18-May-05 21:39
Re: Synchronicity 158 Michael Hayes 18-May-05 21:56
Re: Synchronicity 203 infintesimal 18-May-05 21:48
Re: Synchronicity 168 Moonsword 27-May-05 13:22
Re: Synchronicity 164 Michael Hayes 27-May-05 14:06
Re: Synchronicity 147 David L 18-May-05 19:43
Shrooms 173 photon 19-May-05 07:19
Set and Setting 175 SunSword 19-May-05 15:22
Re: Set and Setting 156 IanG 22-May-05 01:18
Re: Synchronicity 144 IanG 22-May-05 00:52
Re: Synchronicity 142 HarryWJYoung 22-May-05 01:25
Re: Synchronicity 161 IanG 22-May-05 02:14
Re: Synchronicity 170 HarryWJYoung 22-May-05 16:40
Re: Synchronicity 170 IanG 23-May-05 19:50
Ian 160 fisherman 24-May-05 16:28
Re: Ian 158 IanG 25-May-05 08:38
Re: Ian 172 fisherman 25-May-05 14:07
Re: Ian 181 IanG 27-May-05 13:59
Re: Synchronicity 129 Raja 23-May-05 21:40
Re: Synchronicity 161 David L 22-May-05 03:41
Re: Synchronicity 170 IanG 22-May-05 09:30
Re: Synchronicity 126 David L 22-May-05 13:32
Re: Synchronicity 145 IanG 22-May-05 16:29
Re: Synchronicity 140 Deep1 19-May-05 01:48
Re: Synchronicity 180 photon 19-May-05 02:16
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 118 infintesimal 19-May-05 04:47
Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 163 Graham Hancock 19-May-05 07:05
Re: Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 149 photon 19-May-05 09:08
Re: Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 185 HarryWJYoung 19-May-05 09:36
Re: Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 165 photon 19-May-05 10:00
Re: Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 180 Michael Hayes 19-May-05 10:28
Re: Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 190 Graham Hancock 19-May-05 10:59
Re: Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 168 HarryWJYoung 19-May-05 12:41
Re: Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 189 Graham Hancock 19-May-05 13:41
Graham, I'm slightly upset 179 HarryWJYoung 22-May-05 02:56
No need to be upset 152 Graham Hancock 22-May-05 10:31
Not upset any more 140 HarryWJYoung 22-May-05 16:15
Re: Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 165 music 19-May-05 15:07
Re: Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 132 Graham Hancock 19-May-05 15:16
Re: Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 166 HarryWJYoung 19-May-05 16:08
Misunderstanding? 179 fisherman 19-May-05 15:05
Re: Misunderstanding? 160 Graham Hancock 19-May-05 15:40
Re: Misunderstanding? 152 fisherman 19-May-05 15:53
Graham, also check out Dr. Rick Strassman 144 fisherman 19-May-05 16:56
Re: Graham, also check out Dr. Rick Strassman 192 Graham Hancock 19-May-05 17:40
I hope you share! 146 fisherman 19-May-05 18:01
Re: Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 175 infintesimal 19-May-05 15:32
Re: Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 189 Graham Hancock 19-May-05 15:49
Re: Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 143 Farseeker 19-May-05 16:10
Re: Shamanic abilities and the evolution of modern human behaviour 175 catrowan 21-May-05 10:12
Darwin, Huxley, and Shaman 184 HarryWJYoung 19-May-05 16:29
Sorry, Freudian slip. 156 HarryWJYoung 19-May-05 16:42
Re: Darwin, Wallace, and Shaman 158 HarryWJYoung 19-May-05 17:15
Involution and evolution 180 Michael Hayes 19-May-05 17:46
Re: Involution and evolution 193 fisherman 19-May-05 17:59
Re: Involution and evolution 168 Michael Hayes 19-May-05 21:07
Re: Involution and evolution 190 fisherman 20-May-05 19:40
Re: Involution and evolution 143 HarryWJYoung 20-May-05 21:37
Re: Involution and evolution 123 fisherman 20-May-05 22:03
Re: Involution and evolution 161 HarryWJYoung 21-May-05 01:27
Film and shamanism, and language 166 HarryWJYoung 24-May-05 10:19
Re: Film and shamanism, and language 162 fisherman 24-May-05 16:33
Re: Film and shamanism, and language 179 SunSword 24-May-05 16:41
Re: Film and shamanism, and language 178 fisherman 24-May-05 17:28
PS-this is a prime example of what I was talking about 167 fisherman 24-May-05 17:45
Re: PS-this is a prime example of what I was talking about 130 starman9 25-May-05 04:51
Re: PS-this is a prime example of what I was talking about 165 fisherman 25-May-05 14:20
Re: PS-this is a prime example of what I was talking about 142 starman9 26-May-05 03:11
Re: PS-this is a prime example of what I was talking about 174 fisherman 26-May-05 15:17
Re: PS-this is a prime example of what I was talking about 116 HarryWJYoung 26-May-05 15:30
Re: PS-this is a prime example of what I was talking about 190 fisherman 26-May-05 15:36
Re: PS-this is a prime example of what I was talking about 156 starman9 26-May-05 21:20
Re: Film and shamanism, and language 173 HarryWJYoung 24-May-05 18:06
Re: Film and shamanism, and language 168 SunSword 24-May-05 18:48
Re: Film and shamanism, and language 158 HarryWJYoung 24-May-05 19:10
Re: Film and shamanism, and language 163 SunSword 24-May-05 21:48
Re: Film and shamanism, and language 134 HarryWJYoung 24-May-05 23:14
Re: Film and shamanism, and language 126 fisherman 24-May-05 19:50
Re: Film and shamanism, and language 140 HarryWJYoung 24-May-05 17:52
Re: Film and shamanism, and language 206 fisherman 24-May-05 19:55
Re: Involution and evolution 118 David L 19-May-05 21:38
Re: Involution and evolution 167 Michael Hayes 20-May-05 09:58
Re: Involution and evolution 144 David L 20-May-05 14:19
A shaman's daughter 171 meridian1957 19-May-05 18:18
Re: A shaman's daughter 182 Jerome 19-May-05 19:53
Re: A shaman's daughter 164 meridian1957 21-May-05 18:27
Re: A shaman's daughter 234 Deep1 20-May-05 01:50
Re: A shaman's daughter 158 meridian1957 21-May-05 18:29
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 140 starman9 21-May-05 18:57
Remote Viewing 132 Levitating Cat 22-May-05 05:26
Re: Remote Viewing 138 HarryWJYoung 22-May-05 16:25
Re: Remote Viewing 157 infintesimal 22-May-05 19:37
Re: Remote Viewing 183 meridian1957 24-May-05 17:24
Re: Remote Viewing 168 starman9 25-May-05 04:24
Re: The Shaman's Abilities: Evolution or Abberation? 128 shaman 27-May-05 15:08


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.