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> Are you saying then that the English language is actually
> derived from the languages of these Celtic populations who,
> at best, borrowed extensively from their Germanic rulers?

No. Harper is saying that the english language WAS the the language of the "Celtic" populations. :-)

> I suppose it's possible. Has anyone done the necessary
> linguistic research to refute the claim that the substrate of
> English is Germanic?

Harper does not question that the languages are related. He merely suggests that it more logical to conclude that, rather than English being Germanic, German is "Anglic."

> If the norm is model 2, but model 1 has clearly occured
> before (North America being the most recent example) then
> isn't it possible too that Model 1 occurred in Britain during
> the first millennium AD

Sure it's possible. But what Orthodoxy is arguing for is a low-probability event. This makes it a proverbial "extraordinary claim" for which "extraordinary evidence" in required.

Unfortunately, there's actually no evidence for the orthodox position.

> The fact that such atrocities actually occurred in relatively
> modern times and the vast majority of English speakers less
> than 100 years later are completely oblivious to it leaves
> plenty of room for similar incidents occurring in the more
> distant path between Germanic invaders and Celtic natives and
> the subsequent amnesia and creation of a myth to explain how
> the language of the Anglo-Saxons came to be dominant in
> Britain.

Fne. But all you have here is a case that language replacement is plausable. It will always remain improbable due to its demonstrably exceptional nature.

As we are obliged to accept the simplest (most probable) explanation that fits the facts, until convincing evidence of the sort associated with the "ethnic cleansing" scenario you describe is presented, it is more rational to assume that there was nothing exceptional about the Anglo-Saxon experience in England -- and that the English language on the Island predates the Anglo-Saxon invasion.

ISHMAEL

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Subject Views Written By Posted
AOM: Anomoly One 137 AOM-Presenter 03-Apr-03 16:39
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 79 jameske 03-Apr-03 20:02
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 78 Doug 03-Apr-03 22:44
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 104 M J Harper 03-Apr-03 23:39
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 79 Nobody 04-Apr-03 00:16
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 76 M J Harper 04-Apr-03 00:29
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 106 Nobody 04-Apr-03 01:07
Cymri 194 nonconformist 04-Apr-03 04:59
Re: AOM: Anomaly One 92 nonconformist 04-Apr-03 03:31
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 97 M J Harper 04-Apr-03 04:17
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 108 nonconformist 04-Apr-03 05:20
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 93 Doug 04-Apr-03 06:47
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 122 HectorChico 04-Apr-03 10:26
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 96 M J Harper 04-Apr-03 12:56
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 111 DPCrisp 04-Apr-03 13:27
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 107 HectorChico 04-Apr-03 14:58
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 111 M J Harper 04-Apr-03 16:30
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 69 AOM-Presenter 04-Apr-03 16:31
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 130 nonconformist 05-Apr-03 02:15
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 116 AOM-Presenter 05-Apr-03 04:57
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 126 nonconformist 05-Apr-03 08:56
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 116 M J Harper 07-Apr-03 02:24
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 96 nonconformist 07-Apr-03 07:17
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 108 AOM-Presenter 07-Apr-03 15:00
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 72 nonconformist 08-Apr-03 00:27
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 99 M J Harper 08-Apr-03 01:01
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 116 nonconformist 08-Apr-03 03:50
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 94 DPCrisp 08-Apr-03 13:52
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 65 M J Harper 08-Apr-03 15:05
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 102 nonconformist 10-Apr-03 02:10
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 144 stickler 10-Apr-03 10:09
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 99 DPCrisp 10-Apr-03 10:59
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 88 stickler 10-Apr-03 12:32
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 115 AOM-Presenter 10-Apr-03 16:01
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 119 DPCrisp 10-Apr-03 16:47
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 116 stickler 10-Apr-03 17:26
Spellinge 111 AOM-Presenter 10-Apr-03 15:41
Re: Spellinge 105 stickler 10-Apr-03 15:50
Pronounciation 103 AOM-Presenter 10-Apr-03 16:19
Re: Pronounciation 110 stickler 10-Apr-03 17:33
Re: Pronounciation 108 AOM-Presenter 10-Apr-03 18:35
Re: Pronounciation 120 DPCrisp 11-Apr-03 09:39
Re: Spellinge 86 DPCrisp 10-Apr-03 16:34
Re: Spellinge 131 stickler 10-Apr-03 17:34
Re: Spellinge 103 DPCrisp 11-Apr-03 09:47
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 105 M J Harper 10-Apr-03 14:29
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 105 AOM-Presenter 10-Apr-03 15:16
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 93 DPCrisp 11-Apr-03 11:35
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 89 nonconformist 11-Apr-03 22:19
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 110 nonconformist 11-Apr-03 22:33
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 94 Doug 12-Apr-03 08:21
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 84 Doug 08-Apr-03 17:20
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 101 M J Harper 08-Apr-03 18:10
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 86 Doug 08-Apr-03 21:23
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 84 M J Harper 08-Apr-03 22:23
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 106 M J Harper 10-Apr-03 14:10
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 86 stickler 10-Apr-03 15:39
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 81 M J Harper 10-Apr-03 16:30
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 107 stickler 10-Apr-03 17:52
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 81 M J Harper 11-Apr-03 22:37
Re: AOM: Anomoly One 110 nonconformist 12-Apr-03 03:46


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