Mysteries :  The Official GrahamHancock.com forums
For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
Welcome! Log InRegister
Rebuttal of the 11 points contributed by Collins.

1. Collins affirms:

<<Plato says that Atlantis was an island landmass which lay in the Atlantic Ocean beyond which was a series of `other lands' that enabled `voyagers' from his own world to reach the `opposite continent'. This statement perfectly describes the geographical relationship between Cuba and both the Bahamas and the Mid-Caribbean island group which have been used since ancient times as stepping stones to reach the American mainland. >>


My answer is: Absolutely false. Plato never said that Atlantis landmass "located in the Atlantic Ocean was one". Plato not even uses the Greek voice "Okeanós" from which the ocean derives the English word. It is false also that the description of Plato when speech that, after Atlantis other islands existed, and in front or next to these a mainland or continent existed fits as it says to Collins "perfectly" to the geographic region of Cuba and the Bahamas. This affirmation of Mr. Collins is not more than a personal interpretation, absolutely moved away of the true geographic context that describes Plato. The geographic area that describes Plato is, without a doubt some the included/understood one by the surroundings immediate and near the Columns of Hercules (Gibraltar), between the region of Gadeira or Gades (Cadiz, Spain) and the region of the Atlas (Morocco) the "other islands" who mentions Plato, could well be the Madeiras Islands, You embarrass and the Canary Islands and the Bahamas Islands. Therefore, it is possible that the continent located to the other side is America. What evidence of very clear way the logical and scientific impossibility that Atlantis were in the Bahamas or Cuba. It seems incredible that a as famous investigator as Mr. Collins, has been able to sustain all his theories on a base so little scientific and absurd.

2. Collins affirms in their second point:

<<Plato tells us that Atlantis possessed a large fertile plain protected from cold northerly winds by mountain ranges. This precisely describes Cuba's great western plain, between Havana and Pinar del Río, shielded between November and February each year from `les nortes', the cold northerly winds which come in from the eastern United States, by the Cord de Guaniguanico mountain range.>>


My answer are:

Another subjective and personal interpretation. In the first place, those characteristics also are in front of Gibraltar. The immense plain of the southwest of the Iberian Peninsula also is protected by a mountain range of mountains to the north and the northeast. Existing these same geographic characteristics, in the same area that surrounds to the Columns of Hercules (Gibraltar), so and as it describes Plato with absolute clarity, he is unnecessary, in addition to absurd, which it is tried to use like tests located geographic characteristics in a so remote point to the surroundings of Gibraltar, Gadeira or Gades and the Atlas. Those same geographic characteristics can be in multiple sites of the Planet.

3. Collins affirms:

<<Plato tells us that Atlantis was drowned during earthquakes and floods which occurred during one terrible night and a day. Cuba's great plain was partially drowned following the rise in sea level brought about by the melting of the ice at end of the glacial age, c. 8000 BC. Some 500 years earlier, Cuba - along the rest of the Antilles - would have been devastated by earthquakes and tsunamis following the fragmentation and multiple impacts of a comet which devastated the Western Hemisphere in c. 8600-8500 BC. The drowned portion of the plain now lies beneath the Bay of Batabanó and once stretched as far as the Isla de Juventus (Isle of Youth)>>


My answer are:

In all the coast of the Southwest of the Iberian Peninsula until Portugal and the Madeiras Islands and in the coasts of the Northwest of Morocco, exist unquestionable testimonies - discovered by Spanish-Portuguese geologists -, of which a great portion of ibero-African continental earth has submerged at different moments from history because of enormous earthquakes and tsunamis. In fact the made most recent studies demonstrate that in the depths of the Atlantic Gulf or Cadiz, between the Straits of Gibraltar and the Madeiras Islands, one of the most active points exists and dangerous of the planet where submarine earthquakes or earthquakes are being originated with very many frequency that at any time could cause terrible tsunami, so intense or more than the one than I destroy all Lisbon and part of the Southwest of Spain in 1775. Therefore, also in this case, Mr. Collins resorts to arguments that also exist in the geographic area of the surroundings of Gibraltar, the same one where Plato locates to the Island or Peninsula of Atlantis. This characteristics also can be in many places of the Planet. Therefore, also in this case, Mr. Collins, does not count on any convincing test, since another quality or characteristic is that is not exclusive of the region where it was located Atlantis. In this case, when existing these characteristics related to earthquakes and tsunamis, in the same geographic area of the surroundings of Gibraltar and the Atlantic Gulf, also are unnecessary that must look for in other places of the world.

4. Collins affirms:

<<Over 60 sites of possible archaeological interest have been noted on the former Bahaman landmass, now known to marine geologists as the Great Bahama Bank. By far the greatest accumulation of sites cluster on its south-west edge close to Cay Guinchos, Diamond Point and Cay Lobos facing out towards the northern coast of Cuba. If these curious features do turn to be of artificial construction then it means that the proposed former Bahaman culture was integrally linked with the Cuban mainland. Before the waters rose up after the end of the last Ice Age only the Old Bahama Channel would have separated Cuba from the Bahaman landmass.>>


My answer are:

In this section, as soon as it is necessary to comment nothing. This point 4 is derived from the previous one. Therefore, once demonstrated the absurd thing that it would be to try to use like tests the previous points, point 4 is eliminated if same automatically.

5. Collins affirms:

<<The memory of an Atlantic island called Atlantis which lay in the Far West would appear to derive from Iberic Phoenician, and later Carthaginian, sea-journeys to the western Atlantic seaboard from around 1200 BC onwards. After the fall of Carthage in 147 BC the former Carthaginian territories were occupied by seafaring Berber tribes who as the Moors invaded Spain in the eighth century AD. They reintroduced the concept of a western isle lying far out in the ocean and called it Antilia, a name derived from the same Semitic word root as Atlantis showing their common origin. Geographers have identified Antillia as Cuba, while the appearance of Antilia on medieval maps matches very well a truncated form of Cuba shown on the Turkish Piri Reis map of 1513. Professor Charles Hapgood of Keene University determined that this nautical chart was derived originally from a patchwork of pre-Columbian source maps, suggesting a maritime knowledge of Cuba before the time of the Conquest.>>


My answer are:

Are very possible that the legend on Atlantis has arrived until Plato or Egyptian through phoenicians or ibero-phoenicians. But that does not mean that these spoke of Atlantis located in America. In fact, a single or archaeological documentary evidence that it demonstrates, first that does not exist nor the Egyptians knew history Atlantis by phoenicians, as a single test that does not exist either nor Atlantis were in another point of the world that not outside together or next to the Columns of Hercules (Gibraltar), between Gadeira or Gades (Cadiz, Spain) and the Atlas (Morocco) This location is the unique one that describe Plato and all the authors of the antiquity, until the Average Age, who talked about Atlantis. The possible presence of phoenicians and cathaginians in America is not no test that Atlantis were in America. To consider that, the supposed visitors phoenicians knew in America history on Atlantis is not more than a simple documentary unfounded speculation. It is an absurd association of ideas. If ibero-phoenicians or carthaginians had visited America and once there, they had known the legend or history on Atlantis, the logical thing would be that then they counted to Egyptian a history on a civilization that existed in a very distant place, a place that would be far distant of the Columns of Hercules (Gibraltar) very far from the Columns of Hercules, towards the West, happening the Columns of Hercules, happening the Islands of the Atlantic Ocean and passing even the own Ocean. Nevertheless, all the sources of the antiquity, describe of very clear way, that the island or peninsula of Atlantis was located together, alongside same, in front of the Columns of Hercules, next to the region of Gadeira or Gades (Cadiz, Spain) and the region of the Atlas in Morocco. As it affirms the Latin translation of the Greek original text of Plato: "in the mouth (in the Close entrance misma)del of Hercules, in the lobby of the Atlantic Gulf (Gulf of Cadiz)". As far as the Antilles Islands, in old Portuguese (Anti-illa) means "the island that is ahead" or "the island facing". That does not have anything to do with the Atlantis Island. Dog consult the Portuguese experts who plows those that to better knows these facts since they count on maps where it you imagine this Island of Anti-illa or "Island that is ahead" from 1424. These plows the words of Arming Cortesão (prestigious an academic one that was to member of UNESCO) when it made his studies on the old Portuguese maps where it reproduced to the Island Anti-illa: "The origin and meaning of the Word Antilia have been to subject of much controversy. In fact Antilia is composed of two Portuguese words: before or anti and ilha, an archaic form of the Portuguese ilha, i.e. island. It is, therefore, to purely Portuguese Word and it was meant to designate an island-discovered perhaps AT the beginning of the fifteenth century by some unknown navigators, probably Portuguese-lying before to continent, which AT first might have been thought to be Asia, or opposite the European Continent "(Cortesão 1954, p. 106). I feel it, but again, this means to great Checkmate! to the absurd and incredible hypotheses of the dogma of Atlantis in Cuba or America.

6. Collins affirms:

<<The founding families of various Central American cultures, as well as great civilisers such as Quetzalcoatl and Votan, were said to have come from an island set in the waters located in an easterly direction. Unquestionably it was one of the Caribbean islands, and various traditions record that the island in question was Cuba. The blood-red earth which dominates its western plain accounts for the name given to Quetzalcoatl's original homeland which was Huehue Tlapallan, the `old, old red land'. The other names given to this homeland were Tulan, a word which can be shown to have the same root as Atlantis.>>


My answer are:

All those Central American legend and those names, do not demonstrate at all that Atlantis were Cuba or any other island of the Antilles or the Caribbean. In the first place, these legend could be talking about to any other island of the Atlantic Ocean near Azores, the Madeiras or the Canary Islands. Secondly, those legend and those names, in last instance, would only support the hypothesis that some colonies could simply have existed atlanteans in that region or, could be only evidences of old cultural contacts between the Central American towns and the towns atlanteans.

7. Collins affirms:

<<Located on the Mesoamerican island homeland was a place of emergence of the human race known as the Seven Caves. The only location in the Caribbean which appears to fit its description is Ceuva # 1 of the `seven caves' complex at ***** del Este on Cuba's Isle of Youth. Its walls are adorned which dozens of petroglyphs of a celestial nature drawn many thousands of years ago.>>


My answer are:

The cave paintings of "Îsla dê lâ Juventûd", Cuba, or have been studied by the Cuban archaeologists (among them, i myself) and their antiquity seems to go back at the most to about 1,500 or 2,000 years B.P. Does not exist nor a single serious and scientific study that allows to raise the hypothesis that cave paintings of "Îsla dê lâ Juventûd" can be older. Therefore, this point of Mr. Collins either does not constitute any serious argument in favor of the identification of Atlantis with Cuba. On the other hand, Mr. Collins, seems to forget that Plato does not mention in his writings anything on petroglifos nor cave paintings. Supposition that atlanteans made rock paintings or petroglifos is to speculate. It is a possibility, but at no moment can be used like point or "tets" something of which Plato not even mentions. In 1996 I published a work of investigation on hundreds of petroglifos found in the western coasts and of the South of the Iberian Peninsula; the northwest of Morocco and the western coasts of France, Scotland and Ireland. These petroglifos agree of impressive way with the architectonic scheme of the Acropolis of Atlantis described by Plato: five concentric ring or pits, three of water and two of earth, plus a channel that leaves the center of the ring and that excels a good section outside the outer ring. Although they have been exemplary of this type of reason or pictorial subject in other places for the Atlantic facade, including the coasts of America, the greater concentration of these reasons for concentric circles with a central point and a channel that crosses them (Cup and Ring, and channel) have been only in the western coasts of the Iberian Peninsula. More information in the following direction:
http://usuarios.lycos.es/atlantisiberia/cultura/id19.htm

The article is digitized of the magazine "ArqueoHistoria", 1996, and are in Spanish language.

8. Collins affirms:

<<Occasionally the seven tribes whose ancestors had emerged from the Seven Caves were seen as having constructed Seven Cities, arguably the root behind the Portuguese medieval belief in the existence of Seven Cities on the island of Antilia, the medieval form of Atlantis.>>


My answer are:

To associate a myth that speaks of "seven prehistoric caves" with "seven cities" and these with the Atlantis, seems to me a little exaggerated, not to say preposterous. In the first place, between a cave and a city the same similarity exists that the one that could exist between an ant and an elephant. Secondly, no author of the antiquity never commented nothing on the amount of cities of the Atlantis. One assumes, of the reading of the Kritias de Plato, that had to exist many cities atlanteans, but at no moment the exact amount of the cities is mentioned atlanteans, not even is mentioned number seven. Once again, Mr. Collins plays the subjective speculation unfounded some. Mixture information connectionless some demonstrated. Mixture data that keep coincidence some neither in the time nor in the space with the old descriptions of Atlantis offered by Plato and authors.

9. Collins affirms:

<<In the eighteenth century Friar Ramon de Ordoñez y Aguilar, canon of the cathedral town of Ciudad-Réal in Chiapas, told the odyssey of a Central American culture hero named Votan who came out of the east from a land called Valum Chivim and settled on an island named Valum Votan, identified as Cuba, before journeying on to the Yucatán. Andrew Collins demonstrates how Votan is the memory of a Bronze Age Iberic Phoenician seafarer who made transatlantic voyages as early as 2000 BC. A knowledge of Valum Votan's, or Cuba's, topography and catastrophe legends thus entered the classical world prior to the age of Plato. It was from such knowledge, particularly a description of Cuba's western plain, its fertility, its occupation by Iberic Phoenicians and Carthaginians, and the memory of a former great cataclysm which divided the Caribbean into individual islands, that Plato constructed his Atlantis account. A near contemporary writer known as pseudo-Aristotle also wrote about a similar island paradise in his work entitled On Marvellous Things Heard. C. 300 BC.>>


My answer are:

The hypothesis of Ramôn de Ordoñêz and Aguilar are not more than another speculation more than is also based on the falsification of the true words of Plato, whom never the Caribbean said to nothing that allows to identify to the island or peninsula of Atlantis with no Island of "Lâs Antillâs" or. Mr. Collins deliberately ignores or despises the long list of historians, also Spanish, who from several centuries before Ordoñêz and Aguilar or defended the identification of Atlantis with the southwest of the Iberian Peninsula, Gades or Cadiz and the Columns of Hercules in Gibraltar. Historians like Florián de Ocâmpo, Lopez Mâdera, and until king Alfônso the Sabîo (1221-1284) affirmed that Atlantis comprised of the Iberian Peninsula and describe to luxury of details all the genealogy of the kings yet atlanteans conserved in annals and Spanish and Portuguese historical archives from very remote times. With respect to the Island of Votân, it is certain that he could be Cuba, but also could be another Island of the Atlantic. Of all ways, he does not matter for which the Island of Votân was the Island of Cuba. In any case he does not demonstrate anything with respect to the Island or peninsula of Atlantis, since neither Plató nor no author of the antiquity mention nothing that allows to associate the name of Vote with the one of Atlantis. The name of Votán does not appear mentioned in any classic reference of the antiquity that speaks on Atlantis, Iberia or Libya. Therefore, it is absolutely false that Mr. Collins to afir to me that serious Votân the name of a navigator iberic phoenician of the Age of the Bronze that made transatlantic trips towards Cuba. In the first place in "corpus epigraforum" of the Iberian language never has been nor a single inscription with the name of Votân. A single test that does not exist nor that name finds used by iberic phoenicians. To affirm that these iberic phoenicians that they visited Cuba were those that introduced the legend on Atlantis in the classic World is not more than a sovereign show of fantastic speculation. It is not a scientific attitude. Mr. Collins deduces things connectionless nor relation some. Of course that Mr. Collins enjoys a very great imagination. On the other hand, Mr. Collins has still not shown, as they are those abundant archaeological tests that they would demonstrate, of scientific way, that level the western ones of Cuba were colonized by iberics pohoenicians. According to the information that I have a single unquestionable test scientific that not even still does not exist nor iberics phoenicians finds visited by chance or by error level the western ones of Cuba. As far as the island that mentions pseudo-Aristotle in the first place it is not clear that one is talking about Atlantis, as does not exist any scientific test that either it was talking about Cuba. It could be any other Island of the Antillâs, the Caribbean or South America.

10. Collins affirms:

<<Cuba can also be identified as one of the Islands of the Hesperides, which the Roman geographer Statius Sebosus (as recorded by Pliny the Elder and Solinus) stated lay 40 days' sail beyond the Gorgades, an ancient name for the Cape Verde islands. It took Christopher Columbus 33 days to sail between the Cape Verdes and Barbados in the Caribbean on his third voyage to the New World in 1498. Like Atlantis, the concept of the Hesperides, the islands of the Far West, is considered to be of Phoenician origin.>>


My answer are:

Are an authentic deceit this affirmation of Mr. Collins on the Hespérides Islands. At no moment in classic texts one affirms that it was to forty days of in line straight navigation, crossing the Ocean. The old ones always sailed with the at sight coast. Numerous tests of this marine tradition of the classic antiquity exist. Therefore, an Island that was to forty days of navigation, after the Gôrgades (that others identify with Îslas Canary), could be in any point of the western Atlantic coasts of Africa.

11. Collins affirms:

<<Top Italian scientist Emilio Spedicato, Professor of Operations Research, at Bergamo University has recently proposed that the island of Hispaniola, Cuba's easterly neighbor, was Plato's Atlantis. Yet having reviewed Andrew Collins' evidence in favour of Cuba being Atlantis he now sees it `as a very good candidate …only archaeological work will perhaps solve the riddle.'>>


My answer are:

Without commentaries....; -)

------------------
Warm and Respectful greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano


--------------------------------------------------

"a list of the excessive declarations on the Atlantis would be an absolutely good document for the study of the human stupidity" (Franz Susemihl, 1856)

--------------------------------------------------


Georgeos@ArchaeoTour.com
http://www.Atlantologia.com
http://GeorgeosDiaz.archaeotour.com

Options: ReplyQuote


Subject Views Written By Posted
Atlantis in Cuba: The false 11 points of the theory of Andrew Collins. 1258 ScientificAtlantologist 29-Nov-02 19:50
Re: Atlantis in Cuba: The false 11 points of the theory of Andrew Collins. 85 trailmarker 30-Nov-02 20:28
Re: Atlantis in Cuba: The false 11 points of the theory of Andrew Collins. 74 R Avry Wilson 30-Nov-02 21:51
Re: Atlantis in Cuba: The false 11 points of the theory of Andrew Collins. 85 trailmarker 30-Nov-02 22:56
Re: Atlantis in Cuba: The false 11 points of the theory of Andrew Collins. 55 shivalinga 30-Nov-02 21:42
Re: Atlantis in Cuba: The false 11 points of the theory of Andrew Collins. 98 merfolk 01-Dec-02 06:41
Re: Atlantis in Cuba: The false 11 points of the theory of Andrew Collins. 120 GeorgeosDiazMontexano 09-Dec-02 23:32


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.