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Hanslune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cladking Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > I agree. The Romans lacked modern science so
> were
> > highly superstitious.
> >
> > So how do you show the Egyptians were
> > unscientific? Do you just count the words you
> > believe meant "God"? How do you show that
> > "neter" meant "god"? It might be fun to do it
> > only in words that appear in the Coffin Texts.
>
> > With no words for "thought" or "belief" I'm
> sure
> > you can't.
>
> Illogical and irrational. Cladking you are
> pretending there is only one answer. The actual
> answer is that they can be both.
>
> Greeks, Romans, Sumerians all did great things and
> believed in Gods, Scientists today can be
> religious and do great things. Why are you unable
> to understand that simple concept?
>
> Your argument is the kind a sciolist would come up
> with.
>
> As has been explained to you repeatedly taking
> small portions of the AE language and then trying
> to make sweeping generalization about it will led
> to failure.....so of course you've done just
> that.

I might agree that cladking's argument is a bit precarious, and with what followed in your post I'm responding to, but it must be sort of ironic that it seems like the more orthodox that cladking tries to get here, the further out on a limb he seems to be.

Personally I feel like the Greeks and Romans did so much copying off the AEs' paper that if the AEs weren't so collectively superstitious, there's a good reason right there not to start off assuming anything about how seriously the Greeks or Romans took their own fables.

Of course, in spite of your own well-reasoned arguments it still doesn't mean cladking is wrong, just maybe going the wrong way about things. I'm essentially in agreement about the AEs not being religious about things per se, unless at some point someone began to corrupt the original intent of storytelling for personal reasons and started selling off as religion something that wasn't supposed to be.

I think it's immensely important to try to see what may be contained in myths. To the best of my reckoning they seem to have been utilized as vehicles for conveying all sorts of wisdom - botany, medical botany, outdoorsmanship, astronomy, and yes - mathematics too.

I'd teach some of these stories to my own kids - not because I believe one bit that the stories at face value represent truth, but because I believe there are truths contained within them, if only "between the lines".

I get your point about people being able to do great science even while having religious beliefs, but that may be cladking getting a bit too close to sort of an orthodox conceit that being scientific is supposed to spare us from being superstitious as if the two are supposed to be somehow mutually exclusive.

I think that's essentially a sentiment that Carl Sagan and others tried to sell us and I think I've even bought into it a bit before, as if I can only prove that at least some of the AEs (the ones designing the architecture) were profoundly skilled at mathematics, it might lay to rest any ugly rumors that they took their religious ramblings all that seriously, but of course it's not that easy and what may be true for a few ancients may not be true for all.

It even holds up, to a point. I've done enough calculations on earth proportions and planetary cycles that nobody is going to sell me on the idea of anything "divine" about it. Lucky us, there's a boatload of serendipity that may help keep it from being impossible to make order out of that chaos, but the math I've done is probably plenty to keep me from getting superstitious about it.

I really don't know how to prove that the AEs weren't a bunch of superstitious gits even now, I just know it seems very rewarding to look at their "religion" and give them the benefit of a doubt, as if when it comes to mythology, it's something of a case of "what you see is what you get" basically, and the same seems to be true of their architecture, whether we are talking about the Egyptians or the Celts or the Greeks or the Maya.

A couple of things that stand out in my mind in this realm are a Cherokee Medicine Song described by Mooney. We seem to get this orthodox anthopological view as if by osmosis that they believe that doing the song has kind of magical powers in itself and just singing it is supposed to be help heal people, but if you look at the lyrics it looks more like an etiology of a particular illness within the native cosmology.

We seem to think they're so superstitious that they can't understand where illness really comes from so they make up magical songs and chants to ward away evil spirits, even while the song itself may be trying to tell us where they think the particular ailment really comes from.

The contemporary Huastec Maya recognize an illness called "pointing at the moon" and I'm still waiting on an anthropologist to try to clarify whether anyone really believes you can catch a disease from pointing at the moon, or whether it's just a local figure of speech. Please don't tell me that the anthropologist documenting all this didn't even bother to ask for assuming that the natives were so superstitious that they actually believed in an etiology like that. The same informants were asked what they thought about UFOs and declared they were probably secret government projects, does that sound superstitious?

Also, I've long forgotten where it's located so I'm overdue for another read before I get too invested in telling people what it says, but I'll never forget being dumbstruck by a passage in the writings of Plato, that to the best of my understanding seemed to be saying, "Oh my God, what if people started taking this religion stuff seriously?"

If I'm anywhere near the ballpark with that interpretation, there may be a bit of food for thought there about who did and didn't actually believe what.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09-Jan-20 01:36 by thinkitover.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 757 Thanos5150 04-Jan-20 17:22
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 175 cladking 04-Jan-20 19:37
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 135 thinkitover 04-Jan-20 23:49
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 122 Thanos5150 05-Jan-20 00:46
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 138 cladking 05-Jan-20 02:39
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 110 Warwick 06-Jan-20 20:55
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 107 Warwick 06-Jan-20 21:16
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 90 cladking 06-Jan-20 22:45
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 95 Warwick 07-Jan-20 18:30
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 80 cladking 07-Jan-20 20:10
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 100 cladking 06-Jan-20 22:49
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 81 Warwick 07-Jan-20 18:24
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 94 cladking 07-Jan-20 20:33
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 81 Hanslune 08-Jan-20 18:37
Snap! :) 81 Warwick 08-Jan-20 18:47
Re: Snap! :) 79 Hanslune 08-Jan-20 19:02
Re: Snap! :) 81 Warwick 08-Jan-20 19:14
Re: Snap! :) 93 cladking 08-Jan-20 19:56
Re: Snap! :) 72 Hanslune 08-Jan-20 20:23
Re: Snap! :) 72 cladking 08-Jan-20 21:38
Re: Snap! :) 74 Hanslune 08-Jan-20 23:06
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 78 cladking 08-Jan-20 19:50
Stop avoiding the questions Cladking 86 Hanslune 08-Jan-20 20:37
Oops made a mistake on the number of words for English 64 Hanslune 08-Jan-20 23:24
Would You Like to Borrow A Comfy Chair and a Soft Cushion? 83 thinkitover 15-Jan-20 06:12
Re: Would You Like to Borrow A Comfy Chair and a Soft Cushion? 70 Hanslune 15-Jan-20 07:00
Re: Would You Like to Borrow A Comfy Chair and a Soft Cushion? 62 cladking 15-Jan-20 14:38
Re: Would You Like to Borrow A Comfy Chair and a Soft Cushion? 68 Hanslune 15-Jan-20 16:25
Re: Would You Like to Borrow A Comfy Chair and a Soft Cushion? 66 cladking 15-Jan-20 17:38
...and Cladking runs off 59 Hanslune 15-Jan-20 17:52
Re: Would You Like to Borrow A Comfy Chair and a Soft Cushion? 72 Corpuscles 16-Jan-20 08:03
Re: Would You Like to Borrow A Comfy Chair and a Soft Cushion? 104 cladking 16-Jan-20 14:27
Get Comfortable. 82 cladking 16-Jan-20 14:50
It's simple all right 70 Warwick 16-Jan-20 20:32
Hieroglyphs have never been translated but I make my own translations from those same fake translations?????? 64 Hanslune 16-Jan-20 21:56
Re: Would You Like to Borrow A Comfy Chair and a Soft Cushion? 57 Hanslune 16-Jan-20 21:54
Re: Would You Like to Borrow A Comfy Chair and a Soft Cushion? 67 Warwick 16-Jan-20 20:27
Re: Would You Like to Borrow A Comfy Chair and a Soft Cushion? 58 Hanslune 16-Jan-20 22:01
Re: Would You Like to Borrow A Comfy Chair and a Soft Cushion? 69 cladking 15-Jan-20 17:56
making up dates 67 Hanslune 15-Jan-20 18:15
Re: making up dates 65 cladking 15-Jan-20 18:52
Re: making up dates 76 Warwick 15-Jan-20 19:05
Re: making up dates 62 cladking 15-Jan-20 19:22
Re: making up dates 62 Hanslune 15-Jan-20 19:25
Re: making up dates 59 Hanslune 15-Jan-20 19:22
How to demonstrate that your ideas are based on stuff you made up - by Cladking 58 Hanslune 15-Jan-20 19:20
So ancient goofy language is all the same? 57 Hanslune 16-Jan-20 22:05
What Purpose Does Myth Serve? 77 thinkitover 09-Jan-20 01:33
Re: What Purpose Does Myth Serve? 76 cladking 09-Jan-20 02:07
Re: What Purpose Does Myth Serve? 82 cladking 09-Jan-20 02:16
Re: What Purpose Does Myth Serve? 67 Warwick 09-Jan-20 19:46
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 79 Warwick 08-Jan-20 18:45
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 73 Hanslune 08-Jan-20 19:09
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 85 cladking 08-Jan-20 20:14
Cladking avoiding the questions that destroys his assumptions 73 Hanslune 08-Jan-20 20:27
so, not just Egyptologists but, 79 Warwick 14-Jan-20 19:23
Re: so, not just Egyptologists but, 72 cladking 14-Jan-20 20:26
Re: so, not just Egyptologists but, 74 Warwick 14-Jan-20 20:32
Re: so, not just Egyptologists but, 82 cladking 14-Jan-20 21:02
Projection 69 Warwick 15-Jan-20 18:17
Re: Projection 58 Hanslune 16-Jan-20 21:51
Re: so, not just Egyptologists but, 66 Hanslune 15-Jan-20 05:52
Re: so, not just Egyptologists but, 73 cladking 15-Jan-20 14:49
Re: so, not just Egyptologists but, 60 Hanslune 15-Jan-20 16:33
Re: so, not just Egyptologists but, 57 cladking 15-Jan-20 17:17
No Gods means belief 59 Hanslune 15-Jan-20 17:59
Re: so, not just Egyptologists but, 71 Warwick 15-Jan-20 18:34
Re: so, not just Egyptologists but, 74 cladking 15-Jan-20 19:36
Re: so, not just Egyptologists but, 68 Warwick 15-Jan-20 19:57
Re: so, not just Egyptologists but, 85 Hanslune 16-Jan-20 22:07
It's a common fault 73 Warwick 18-Jan-20 21:01
Re: It's a common fault 76 Hanslune 19-Jan-20 00:12
Re: It's a common fault 69 cladking 20-Jan-20 03:14
Re: It's a common fault 59 Hanslune 20-Jan-20 03:42
Re: It's a common fault 82 Corpuscles 20-Jan-20 03:59
Re: It's a common fault 62 Sirfiroth 20-Jan-20 17:01
Re: It's a common fault 60 Hanslune 20-Jan-20 17:37
Re: It's a common fault 61 Warwick 20-Jan-20 17:21
Re: It's a common fault 60 Hanslune 20-Jan-20 17:30
Re: so, not just Egyptologists but, 64 Hanslune 15-Jan-20 05:55
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 74 cladking 08-Jan-20 22:04
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 71 cladking 08-Jan-20 20:10
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 64 Hanslune 08-Jan-20 20:25
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 74 cladking 08-Jan-20 21:44
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 70 Hanslune 08-Jan-20 23:01
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 92 cladking 08-Jan-20 23:22
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 79 Hanslune 08-Jan-20 23:26
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 78 Warwick 09-Jan-20 19:48
Are you kidding us or what? 87 Warwick 09-Jan-20 19:50
Re: Are you kidding us or what? 80 cladking 09-Jan-20 20:26
We know who we are talking too 88 Hanslune 09-Jan-20 20:42
Re: Are you kidding us or what? 73 Hanslune 09-Jan-20 20:36
sorry for the delay 81 Warwick 14-Jan-20 19:16
Re: sorry for the delay 82 cladking 14-Jan-20 21:11
Sorry you are off topic 72 Hanslune 15-Jan-20 06:02
Re: sorry for the delay 68 Warwick 15-Jan-20 18:28
Re: sorry for the delay 60 Hanslune 15-Jan-20 19:24
Re: sorry for the delay 68 Hanslune 15-Jan-20 05:59
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 83 Hanslune 08-Jan-20 19:06
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 97 cladking 08-Jan-20 20:16
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 85 Hanslune 08-Jan-20 20:24
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 96 Corpuscles 09-Jan-20 03:29
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 114 Thanos5150 09-Jan-20 04:26
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 107 seasmith 09-Jan-20 05:43
Re: The Book of Two Ways-Coffin Texts Older Than Believed 110 Warwick 20-Jan-20 19:22


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