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Barbelo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
Quote
The Saksaywaman construction material is
> evidently represented by the organogenic and
> fine-grained limestone with no organic residues
> and with a low amount of their fragments.
>
> ITAG experts suggest that the fine-grained
> limestone may be an artificial material produced
> with unknown technologies. This statement is
> presented in the official summary.
>
> On the other hand, the experts of Fersman
> Mineralogical Museum in Moscow, of the Geology
> Department of St-Petersburg State University and
> of the Department of Geology of Oil and Gas of the
> South Federal University have expressed their
> opinion during the private consultations that the
> mentioned fine-grained limestone is deemed to be a
> natural formation.
>
> Institute of Tectonics and Geophysics after
> Yu.A.Kosygin FEB RAS
> Performed by: Deputy Director, PhD Berdnikov N.V.
>
> Rostov University
> Performed by: department research expert Gorlova
> Yu.V.

>
>
>
>
> Have you watched Berdnikov and his associates discuss this issue?
> [www.youtube.com]
>
I am surprised you ask. Unfortunately a couple of times.
I guess you mean something like 'did I understand it?'
Well, I am glad I remembered a little about Debye Temperature but didn't understand the relevance significance of Rigid Body Physics (which I had to look up) until I got part of their full report stating "cryptocrystalline structure" .

(The version youtube allows to shown to us down under didn't have the/any bit where they discussed anything like Tofa or Travertine?) What did I miss?

> So, Berdnikov cannot explain how the Sacsayhuaman
> stones can possibly be in their present
> composition without the interference of some lost
> technology. Yet, three experts in the field state
> that these stones are natural.
>
> YOU don't need to be an expert in these matters.
> Even renowned experts disagree with the process of
> formation.

The experts were not prepared to supply written contribution to the official report, rather only private verbal comment.
It does not surprise me that Academic Geologists refuse to believe it could be anything but natural and would resist jeopardising their position and reputation by commenting anything like 'we don't know what it is or how it formed"
>
> Tufa isn't a widespread construction material.
> Because of its lightness, low density when wet and
> its ability to harden to stone upon drying makes
> it the low-hanging fruit of options. Much easier
> than quarrying, transporting, cutting and lifting
> sedimentary limestone. Even in England, at
> Canterbury Cathedral some may have been imported
> from France due to its scarcity.

This has been welcome valuable information and education (for me). It may explain many ancient structures. However the analysis of the samples does not point to or confirm any such in the case of Sacsayhuaman
>
> This tufa is different from most varieties found
> today as it borders on travertine and its
> dependent on the chemical quality of the water.
> But, that's not all.

I do not exclude the possibility that the stone is natural by some rare natural process.
However surely Academic Geologists and Geophysicists would immediately recognise and identify Travertine or Tufa?
>
>
Quote
From limestone, which became plastic, due
> to the application to it of an unknown technology
> by the ancient builders, which deliberately
> violated the crystal structure of the natural
> mineral with the goal of providing the building
> material with maximal density?

>
>
>
> Using that premise, they'll never figure it out.



They obviously need your help and suggestion. I reckon it would be worth shooting off an email and giving them some clues.
N Berdnikov:
Тел./Факс: (4212) 22-77-32

E-mail: nick@itig.as.khb.ru
At least you could get some more reliable knowledgeable feedback on the likelihood of it being Tufa?

>
> Think logically. If there was some unknown
> technology used, why did the ancients go to all
> the trouble of creating the irregular shapes? Why
> not just form up regular moulds and pour in the
> mix? What's the purpose of the walls?

The advantages of polygonal odd shaped walls has been discussed in vids posted in this thread.
Moulds is a burden and I do not believe necessary. "Pour the mix" implies a more viscous substance than what they are suggesting. (one doesn't "pour" plasticine)
>
> Look at the regular andesite blocks. Were they
> harder, or easier, to make? Pre or post the
> limestone wall blocks?

I do not understand the basis or support for this conjecture?
Mr I Alekseev of ITAG was contracted to investigate the collapsing walls by Ministry of Culture Peru.
It is only speculation, but possibly the Andesite blocks were put in there in previous restoration attempts?

>
> No one was "deliberately violating the crystal
> structure of the natural mineral with the goal of
> providing the building material with maximal
> density."
>
You seem to refuse to accept the scientific detailed analysis of the stone samples?


> Is that really possible for people of that time?
> Or even our time? Why bother? Why not just hack
> the sedimentary limestone out of the quarry, cut
> it into blocks and stack them up make a wall.
> Isn't that standard modus operandi at Giza?

It is a great idea if you can actually transport such. Even if your lightweight Tufa was involved ? Some of those big blocks would be difficult to move, even if like pumice and lighter than water. Which they are NOT, because the Electron microscopy of 10 separate samples shows densely packed fine crystal structure? (ie a very heavy stone)
>
> The ancients were simply using local, but not
> common, stone.

It is a wonderful, very creative and imaginative suggestion. You are to be congratulated!!!
However, unfortunately it's not backed up by any analysis or fact.
>
> "From limestone, which became plastic..."
>
> That's the false premise.

I agree, that speculation may be incorrect in regards Sacsayhuaman.

>
>
Quote
Yes we can all see the channels for water
> at Tombomachay, but it would take millennia, or a
> long time, to form and unlikely in that structural
> shape? ( Unless you think the original structures
> are extremely old)

>
>
>
> I'm not sure whether, or not, I have explained
> this clearly, but the walls at the Water Temple at
> Tombomchay are not something that were discovered
> as is. They were built using local stones which
> had formed into the irregular but close-fitting
> formations. Most of these stones were removed from
> their original position, trimmed and repositioned
> into walls.
>
> However, the central mass which runs down the hill
> was left in situ as a host for further creation of
> more living stones. Or, because it was deemed to
> be a sacred entity. Maybe the whole site is the
> reason for the Temple.

I at least understand what you are suggesting about this site.
I do not know as there is no scientific investigation facts.
BUT, Again very creative!
>
> Now, the wonderful research paper with images
> which you so kindly linked to, made the following
> observation:
>
>
Quote
The surface is covered with certain
> impurities, dust and current organics (Fig. 3);
> particles of copper were also found (Fig. 1,
> 2):

>
>
>
> Copper.
>
> Why copper?

Most ancient bronze age and iron age people had copper .
I do not understand completely what they are meaning by this focus or point?
>
> And, as far as the time it takes for formation
> doesn't really matter, it was used when it had
> formed sufficiently enough to be used for
> construction.

Fair enough. There must have been lots of it around in the old days. But somehow, its crystalline structure has completely changed now?
>
> Do I think that Sacsayhuaman is extremely old?
> Maybe - if those andesite blocks precede the
> limestone ones. But, below is an image of
> limestone construction from Malta. Does the one on
> the left look as though it was once soft to you?
> How old do you think that they might be? Older
> than Sacsayhuaman?
>
>

It might be (or have been)very soft? However, erosion on limestone exposed or near the salty sea breezes in such places as Malta are quite different (and far more destructive) compared to places like Cuzco (several hundred mile away and at great elevation.)
>
>
> As I said, at the beginning, there is a lot more
> to this site than has been adequately explained.
> But, my concept of what happened not just here,
> but everywhere this type of stonework exists,
> won't gel with mainstreamers or alternatives.

I pleaded ,goaded, taunted, to dig out your thinking and I am glad I did, most interesting.
However, given lack or any scientific evidence or support , I am afraid at this point - 'No cigar'.

Barbelo, over the years you have earned my respect for being an intelligent knowledgeable individual who has made some great contributions here.
I respect your right to hold private speculations on which you see no reason to investigate further. If that is your wish then you still have my respect and no ridicule at all is meant in this reply!
However, I recommend you contact a Geology department, or professional , to discuss your theories for your own gratification.

Apparently (Kon Khanyants - translation and voice over- in the video ) advised Penn State Uni had agreed to do an independent re-analysis of all the stone samples, so they might be worth contact?

Cheers

PS Call it paranoia, whatever, but if this is just a wind up, or 'takin' the piss' out of me, for starting a thread about scientific work by Davidovits then, as I know you can be a cheeky clever bugger! - IF so well done , if that IS the case!

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 1483 Corpuscles 21-Dec-19 17:24
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 194 Open mind 22-Dec-19 02:28
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 154 Hanslune 22-Dec-19 05:58
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 134 Corpuscles 22-Dec-19 21:06
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 92 thinkitover 23-Dec-19 10:05
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 157 ocka 22-Dec-19 09:32
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 126 Hanslune 22-Dec-19 18:01
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 123 Thanos5150 23-Dec-19 16:53
Re: Tiahuanaco architect named 90 molder 23-Dec-19 22:16
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 92 Hanslune 23-Dec-19 23:44
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 88 Thanos5150 24-Dec-19 16:47
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 74 Hanslune 25-Dec-19 01:32
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 114 Thanos5150 25-Dec-19 02:43
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 81 Hanslune 27-Dec-19 23:09
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 75 Thanos5150 28-Dec-19 17:22
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 89 Corpuscles 29-Dec-19 06:33
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 76 Merrell 29-Dec-19 14:38
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 75 Corpuscles 29-Dec-19 20:31
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 73 Merrell 29-Dec-19 23:54
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 60 Corpuscles 01-Jan-20 00:03
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 59 Merrell 01-Jan-20 10:45
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 49 Corpuscles 01-Jan-20 18:32
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 66 Open mind 31-Dec-19 19:33
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 53 Merrell 31-Dec-19 23:06
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 63 Corpuscles 01-Jan-20 00:29
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 56 Open mind 01-Jan-20 03:02
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 89 Thanos5150 01-Jan-20 04:08
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 62 Corpuscles 01-Jan-20 05:51
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 77 Thanos5150 01-Jan-20 06:59
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 71 Corpuscles 01-Jan-20 19:40
Basalt Pavers 65 Barbelo 01-Jan-20 21:33
Re: Basalt Pavers 59 Corpuscles 01-Jan-20 23:01
Re: Basalt Pavers 54 Barbelo 02-Jan-20 03:36
Re: Basalt Pavers 66 Corpuscles 02-Jan-20 05:42
Re: Basalt Pavers 57 Barbelo 02-Jan-20 06:41
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 70 Thanos5150 02-Jan-20 02:17
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 74 Corpuscles 02-Jan-20 05:03
Basalt Pillar 74 Barbelo 02-Jan-20 07:15
Re: Basalt Pillar 60 Open mind 02-Jan-20 15:43
Re: Basalt Pillar 65 Corpuscles 02-Jan-20 19:06
Re: Basalt Pillar 62 Barbelo 02-Jan-20 21:13
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 76 Thanos5150 02-Jan-20 18:08
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 79 Merrell 02-Jan-20 18:58
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 120 Martin Stower 03-Jan-20 11:15
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 70 Corpuscles 03-Jan-20 20:29
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 61 Merrell 03-Jan-20 21:45
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 67 Corpuscles 03-Jan-20 23:23
Sacsayhuaman 75 Barbelo 04-Jan-20 02:22
Re: Sacsayhuaman 72 Corpuscles 04-Jan-20 03:23
Re: Sacsayhuaman 68 Thanos5150 04-Jan-20 03:28
Re: Sacsayhuaman 63 Corpuscles 04-Jan-20 05:58
Re: Sacsayhuaman 112 Barbelo 04-Jan-20 11:16
Re: Sacsayhuaman 62 Thanos5150 05-Jan-20 15:58
Re: Sacsayhuaman 64 Barbelo 05-Jan-20 20:22
Re: Sacsayhuaman 53 Thanos5150 05-Jan-20 23:55
Re: Sacsayhuaman 56 Corpuscles 05-Jan-20 21:41
Re: Sacsayhuaman 59 Barbelo 05-Jan-20 23:40
Re: Sacsayhuaman 60 Thanos5150 05-Jan-20 23:59
Re: Sacsayhuaman 50 Open mind 06-Jan-20 01:08
Re: Sacsayhuaman 51 Corpuscles 06-Jan-20 02:29
Re: Sacsayhuaman 58 Barbelo 06-Jan-20 03:50
Re: Sacsayhuaman 56 Corpuscles 06-Jan-20 04:29
Re: Sacsayhuaman 62 Thanos5150 06-Jan-20 05:10
Re: Sacsayhuaman 60 Corpuscles 06-Jan-20 05:47
Re: Sacsayhuaman 65 Thanos5150 06-Jan-20 16:53
Re: Sacsayhuaman 50 Corpuscles 06-Jan-20 19:06
The Limestone Puddle 52 Barbelo 06-Jan-20 21:27
Re: Sacsayhuaman 56 Thanos5150 06-Jan-20 21:44
Re: Sacsayhuaman 54 Corpuscles 06-Jan-20 22:28
Re: Sacsayhuaman 64 Thanos5150 07-Jan-20 17:01
Re: Sacsayhuaman 50 Corpuscles 07-Jan-20 21:48
Re: Sacsayhuaman 49 Open mind 06-Jan-20 21:07
Re: Sacsayhuaman 55 Corpuscles 06-Jan-20 21:30
Re: Sacsayhuaman 43 Open mind 07-Jan-20 20:43
Re: Sacsayhuaman 47 Open mind 06-Jan-20 13:44
Re: Sacsayhuaman 53 Barbelo 06-Jan-20 11:07
Re: Sacsayhuaman 51 Corpuscles 06-Jan-20 05:16
Re: Sacsayhuaman 54 Barbelo 06-Jan-20 10:36
Re: Sacsayhuaman 55 seasmith 06-Jan-20 14:28
Re: Sacsayhuaman 52 Barbelo 06-Jan-20 20:46
Re: Sacsayhuaman 49 Open mind 06-Jan-20 16:41
Re: Sacsayhuaman 51 Barbelo 06-Jan-20 21:12
Re: Sacsayhuaman 51 Open mind 07-Jan-20 15:05
Re: Sacsayhuaman 56 Corpuscles 07-Jan-20 21:25
Nonsensical or Unnecessary? 49 Barbelo 07-Jan-20 23:51
Re: Nonsensical or Unnecessary? 60 Corpuscles 08-Jan-20 01:23
Re: Sacsayhuaman 51 Open mind 08-Jan-20 00:36
Re: Sacsayhuaman 50 Corpuscles 08-Jan-20 00:58
Re: Sacsayhuaman 51 Barbelo 08-Jan-20 01:12
Re: Sacsayhuaman 46 Open mind 08-Jan-20 02:06
Re: Sacsayhuaman 54 Barbelo 08-Jan-20 03:20
Re: Sacsayhuaman 68 Corpuscles 08-Jan-20 07:05
Re: Sacsayhuaman 48 Barbelo 08-Jan-20 12:01
Re: Sacsayhuaman 45 Open mind 08-Jan-20 16:42
Re: Sacsayhuaman 50 Corpuscles 08-Jan-20 18:24
Re: Sacsayhuaman 41 Open mind 08-Jan-20 20:23
Re: Sacsayhuaman 49 Corpuscles 08-Jan-20 21:44
LImestone vs Limestone 45 Barbelo 08-Jan-20 22:40
Re: LImestone vs Limestone 57 Corpuscles 08-Jan-20 23:47
Re: LImestone vs Limestone 53 Barbelo 09-Jan-20 01:57
Re: LImestone vs Limestone 59 Corpuscles 09-Jan-20 03:09
Re: Limestone vs Limestone 60 Barbelo 09-Jan-20 04:07
Re: Limestone vs Limestone 45 Open mind 09-Jan-20 16:06
Re: Limestone vs Limestone 47 Barbelo 09-Jan-20 20:49
Re: Limestone vs Limestone 46 Open mind 09-Jan-20 20:58
Re: Limestone vs Limestone 61 Barbelo 09-Jan-20 21:20
Re: Limestone vs Limestone 46 Open mind 10-Jan-20 15:12
Re: Limestone vs Limestone 54 Corpuscles 09-Jan-20 17:15
Re: LImestone vs Limestone 47 Open mind 09-Jan-20 15:25
Re:Sacsayhuaman 42 Corpuscles 10-Jan-20 07:00
Re: Re:Sacsayhuaman 40 Open mind 10-Jan-20 13:15
Re: Re:Sacsayhuaman 63 Corpuscles 10-Jan-20 14:34
Re: Re:Sacsayhuaman 40 Open mind 10-Jan-20 15:47
Re: Re:Sacsayhuaman 47 Open mind 10-Jan-20 15:58
Re: Re:Sacsayhuaman 49 Corpuscles 10-Jan-20 21:07
Re: Re:Sacsayhuaman 42 Corpuscles 10-Jan-20 21:00
Re: LImestone vs Limestone 64 Thanos5150 09-Jan-20 01:44
Tombomachay 55 Corpuscles 10-Jan-20 06:25
Re: Limestone vs Limestone 53 Barbelo 10-Jan-20 07:30
Re: Limestone vs Limestone 91 Corpuscles 10-Jan-20 11:41
Re: Limestone vs Limestone 62 Barbelo 11-Jan-20 05:25
Re: Limestone vs Limestone 55 Corpuscles 12-Jan-20 01:24
Now All You Have To Do Is Prove It 55 Barbelo 12-Jan-20 12:11
Re: Now All You Have To Do Is Prove It 60 Corpuscles 12-Jan-20 20:56
Re: Now All You Have To Do Is Prove It 66 Open mind 13-Jan-20 16:19
Re: Sacsayhuaman 44 Open mind 08-Jan-20 23:22
Re: Sacsayhuaman 49 Open mind 08-Jan-20 14:23
Re: Sacsayhuaman 41 Merrell 08-Jan-20 17:57
On the fence... 53 Racho 08-Jan-20 04:51
Re: On the fence... 46 Open mind 08-Jan-20 15:24
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 64 Merrell 04-Jan-20 09:04
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 63 Corpuscles 05-Jan-20 09:22
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 63 Martin Stower 03-Jan-20 23:28
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 58 Corpuscles 04-Jan-20 00:34
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 44 Open mind 05-Jan-20 16:19
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 55 Open mind 02-Jan-20 03:37
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 63 Merrell 01-Jan-20 14:10
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 58 Corpuscles 01-Jan-20 18:41
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 96 Corpuscles 22-Dec-19 21:13
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 87 Corpuscles 22-Dec-19 21:30
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 80 Open mind 22-Dec-19 22:12
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 74 WVK 23-Dec-19 15:21
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 71 Corpuscles 23-Dec-19 21:22
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 65 Open mind 23-Dec-19 23:22
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 90 Hanslune 22-Dec-19 22:58
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 85 seasmith 23-Dec-19 03:04
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 79 Hanslune 23-Dec-19 07:20
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 80 Corpuscles 23-Dec-19 09:43
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 71 Hanslune 23-Dec-19 23:28
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 90 Thanos5150 24-Dec-19 16:53
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 85 Hanslune 24-Dec-19 22:35
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 142 Thanos5150 23-Dec-19 19:29
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 147 Corpuscles 23-Dec-19 21:19
Re: Tiwanaku / Pumapunku Megaliths are Artificial Geopolymers 112 Enigcom 02-Jan-20 17:29


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