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For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
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drrayeye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I've summarized the published literature as best I
> can, and stayed away from speculation. You've
> jumped right in with some ideas of how it may have
> evolved from the earliest times. The broad
> outlines seem credible and fun, but have gone way
> beyond what I would be comfortable with.
>
> I suspect that the orthogenesis I've proposed is
> very ancient, but the development of alphabets and
> written language as we understand them today must
> be approached with a bit more caution.


I have followed your links.

I'm not really suggesting I know more than the scholars or other theorists but I believe a great deal comes down to what we believe. I can't believe that modern people are any smarter, saner, more "advanced", or any less superstitious than ancient people. I believe there must be simpler explanations than ancient people were primitive and superstitious but we're all better now. It seems everyone has every answer now days except no one knows how it all began or why we're here. No one even knows how pyramids were built or what causes gravity.

Nobody can explain why history doesn't start for many centuries after the invention of writing. The best explanation for why all ancient writing is fantastic and surreal is that all the authors were sun addled. The best explanation for for the invention of agriculture and cities is "trial and error" but only science can put a man on the moon and STILL NOT EXPLAIN GRAVITY!!!

Caution is good and the proper scientific stance but most hypotheses about the origin of language and writing don't really explain so much as they put a date to it. None of these hypotheses is falsifiable and instead each generation just adds to the work of previous generations as the potential to prove any of it slips back further and further in time. We must believe ancient people were "less" and that they became "more" with every step toward science. Somehow I can't see an Inquisitor as more than a Roman or a Roman as more than a caveman. Perhaps this is my failure but I can even see an Einstein as more than an Imhotep or a Shakespeare as more than Enoch. I believe we each work with what we have available and if cavemen needed writing they would have invented it.

I believe that hypotheses with a very low probability of ever being tested or proven are not so much to abandon. They've done a lot of remarkable work with linguistics and languages. Some of the stuff coming from Biblical scholars is remarkable and perhaps statistics can someday uncover work and language origins we can hardly imagine. It's not a matter of tossing anything out so much as it is the methodical and systematic application of human knowledge to all things. We are too quick to ignore or discard physical evidence because it doesn't fit with the status quo. We have clay discs from Sumeria that apparently underlie the first (known) alphabet but these tend to be shunted aside as the physical evidence is not tested. Of course it's entirely possible that more physical evidence wouldn't answer very many questions and just fill up the backs of future dusty old tomes.

I believe it's way past time to put engineers in charge of engineering issues. If you want to know who, why, or when a pot shard originated than an anthropologist is just the person to ask. But if you want to know how it was made, its purpose, and why it's broken then you need an engineer. Knowledge of the physical properties of shards, discs, and artefacts just might tell you a great deal about the people who made them. It will provide clues to the meaning and how they impacted the lives of the makers.

Far too many fundamental assumptions are unchallenged and untested. We are each fixating on minutia to the exclusion of learning the basis for how to put it all together. There's endless opinion and very little substantive data about much of anything. In very real ways this applies even today. We take a reality for granted and we take it for granted that we each see the same reality. Mostly we only agree on the broadest brush strokes but even these tend to be assumptive.

Man fears the pyramid, time fears man.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 1746 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 07:56
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 223 Spiros 03-Sep-19 10:50
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 208 MDaines 03-Sep-19 12:59
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 200 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 13:22
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 256 MDaines 03-Sep-19 13:51
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 125 cladking 13-Oct-19 16:08
For those who believe Moses wrote in "pre Hebrew" 156 drrayeye 07-Sep-19 06:52
Re: For those who believe Moses wrote in "pre Hebrew" 161 Spiros 07-Sep-19 07:18
Re: For those who believe Moses wrote in "pre Hebrew" 128 drrayeye 07-Sep-19 17:16
Re: For those who believe Moses wrote in "pre Hebrew" 142 Spiros 07-Sep-19 17:26
Re: For those who believe Moses wrote in "pre Hebrew" 132 drrayeye 09-Sep-19 16:17
Re: For those who believe Moses wrote in "pre Hebrew" 138 Eddie Larry 07-Sep-19 18:13
Re: For those who believe Moses wrote in "pre Hebrew" 141 drrayeye 08-Sep-19 01:44
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 162 Thanos5150 09-Sep-19 17:15
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 148 drrayeye 10-Sep-19 16:34
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 140 Thanos5150 11-Sep-19 15:55
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 144 drrayeye 11-Sep-19 18:06
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 131 Thanos5150 11-Sep-19 23:21
different Patterns of influence 129 drrayeye 12-Sep-19 03:02
Re: different Patterns of influence 133 Thanos5150 12-Sep-19 03:14
Re: different Patterns of influence 155 drrayeye 12-Sep-19 03:42
Seriously? 177 Barbelo 09-Sep-19 22:34
modern psycholinguistic considerations 120 drrayeye 17-Sep-19 20:43
Re: modern psycholinguistic considerations 122 Eddie Larry 17-Sep-19 22:06
further cognitive limits on alphabet construction 120 drrayeye 21-Sep-19 20:07
HW CM Y CN RD THS? 124 drrayeye 24-Sep-19 20:32
Re: HW CM Y CN RD THS? 108 Eddie Larry 24-Sep-19 20:49
Some of the answers 137 drrayeye 25-Sep-19 01:58
Re: Some of the answers 116 Eddie Larry 04-Oct-19 15:01
Re: Some of the answers 105 drrayeye 05-Oct-19 06:01
Hypothesis 108 drrayeye 04-Oct-19 04:26
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 112 seasmith 07-Oct-19 03:37
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 126 seasmith 07-Oct-19 03:44
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 105 drrayeye 08-Oct-19 06:55
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 95 seasmith 10-Oct-19 00:27
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 97 drrayeye 11-Oct-19 03:22
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 95 seasmith 12-Oct-19 01:39
Could you add 92 drrayeye 12-Oct-19 02:14
History of the alphabet 88 Sirfiroth 12-Oct-19 02:59
Re: History of the alphabet 84 drrayeye 12-Oct-19 04:00
Re: History of the alphabet 82 Eddie Larry 12-Oct-19 04:05
Re: History of the alphabet 90 drrayeye 12-Oct-19 06:32
Re: History of the alphabet 92 Eddie Larry 12-Oct-19 14:52
Re: History of the alphabet 87 drrayeye 13-Oct-19 05:06
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 111 cladking 13-Oct-19 02:44
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 116 cladking 13-Oct-19 13:24
Psycholinguistics 82 drrayeye 15-Oct-19 19:36
Re: Psycholinguistics 89 cladking 15-Oct-19 20:17
Re: Psycholinguistics 210 drrayeye 16-Oct-19 01:15
Re: Psycholinguistics 83 cladking 27-Oct-19 14:51
Re: Psycholinguistics 78 drrayeye 03-Nov-19 02:04
Re: Psycholinguistics 65 cladking 03-Nov-19 14:36
Infants, Babies, and young children 67 drrayeye 03-Nov-19 23:02
Re: Infants, Babies, and young children 74 cladking 04-Nov-19 15:10
Re: Infants, Babies, and young children 75 drrayeye 04-Nov-19 17:21
Re: Infants, Babies, and young children 89 cladking 05-Nov-19 01:57
Re: Infants, Babies, and young children 118 drrayeye 05-Nov-19 18:40
Speechery & Glyphery 80 seasmith 03-Nov-19 04:02
Re: Speechery & Glyphery 71 cladking 03-Nov-19 15:02
Sign, symbol, and meaning: linguistic relativity 69 drrayeye 03-Nov-19 23:25
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 93 seasmith 13-Oct-19 17:20
Do you have an example of an alphabet that is Not syllabic ? 90 drrayeye 13-Oct-19 22:46
I'm familiar with Rohl 86 drrayeye 13-Oct-19 23:12
Re: I'm familiar with Rohl 92 seasmith 13-Oct-19 23:53
Re: I'm familiar with Rohl 93 drrayeye 14-Oct-19 02:15
Re: I'm familiar with Rohl 96 seasmith 14-Oct-19 18:29
Re: I'm familiar with Rohl 87 drrayeye 14-Oct-19 19:21
Ancient written symbols 93 drrayeye 17-Oct-19 01:01
Summary: part one 91 drrayeye 20-Oct-19 07:12
Re: Summary: part two 86 drrayeye 27-Oct-19 06:36
Re: Summary: part one 84 cladking 27-Oct-19 14:30


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