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drrayeye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lee,
>
> Mahoney argues that the existence of a proto
> Hebrew alphabet supports the Christian claims of
> Moses role in writing parts of the Old Testament.
> The dialogs I've posted go into considerable
> detail.

Instead of a movie trailer and an interview try this: HERE.

Quote

Eli says: "Additionally, I would challenge the credulity of the argument that after 430 years of living under Egyptian rule the Hebrews wrote an account of creation that is influenced by the Sumerians just because Abraham was born there."

First of all, this 430yrs comes from the Bible and is not part of Egyptian history, of which there is a lot for this period. According to Jewish tradition Abraham was born c. 1800BC. This would put his life, and the beginning of the sojourn to Egypt from Canaan, squarely towards the beginnings of the 13th Dynasty in Egypt. Yes, the AE had slaves from the Levant (Canaan), not to mention many other areas like Libya and Nubia, but these were not "Hebrews" but rather various semitic peoples, often women and war prisoners. There was no such thing as a "Hebrew" during this time nor was there a Yahweh. But they were not an "enslaved people" by any means regardless and Canaan in the 13th Dynasty actually invaded the Nile Delta and formed their own kingdom there. See HERE.

The AE had a long history with the Levant going back for thousands of years before the formation of the Dynastic state. This relationship continued at various levels throughout AE history. The AE themselves in the 1st Dynasty even had outposts in southern Palestine. See also here: Connection Between the 5th Dynasty and the Levant.. The point being that for thousands of years, long before, during, and after the birth of Abraham, Egypt and the Levant/Canaan have had a long history of interaction. No Yahweh.

Moses, if real, is thought to have lived sometime c.14th century BC, in other words the New Kingdom of Egypt. Lots of AE history to be found during this time to help us corroborate the story of Moses of which unfortunately there is none. Interestly though, we do have the The Admonitions of Ipuwer which though the copies found date to the New Kingdom, is thought to be older dating to the Middle Kingdom in which Ipuwer is describing an event 400yrs before his time that would place it in the 1st Intermediate period that spanned from c. 2181-2055BC. Obviously long before Moses and even centuries before Abraham and the sojourn to Egypt meaning this is not the story of the Exodus. Yet compare some of the content found with that of the story of Exodus: HERE.

Ipuwer:
2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
2:10 The river is blood.

2:10 Men shrink from tasting - human beings, and thirst after water

3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin.


Exodus:
7:20 …all the waters of the river were turned to blood.
7:21 ...there was blood thoughout all the land of Egypt …and the river stank.

7:24 And all the Egyptians dug around the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.


Ipuwer:
2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps... The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong [by right] wheat and barley, geese and fish

6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.

5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which was yesterday seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax.


Exodus:
9:23-24 ...and the fire ran along the ground... there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous.
9:25 ...and the hail smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the field.

9:31-32 ...and the flax and the barley was smitten; for the barley was in season, and flax was ripe.

But the wheat and the rye were not smitten; for they were not grown up.

10:15 ...there remained no green things in the trees, or in the herbs of the fields, through all the land of Egypt.


Ipuwer:
5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan...
9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together.


Exodus:
9:3 ...the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field... and there shall be a very grievous sickness.
9:19 ...gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field...

9:21 And he that did not fear the word of the Lord left his servants and cattle in the field.


Ipuwer:
9:11 The land is without light

Exodus:
10:22 And there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt.

Ipuwer:
4:3 (5:6) Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls.
6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets.

6:3 The prison is ruined.

2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere.

3:14 It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations


Exodus:
12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive that was in the prison.
12:30 ...there was not a house where there was not one dead.

12:30 ...there was a great cry in Egypt.


Ipuwer:
7:1 Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land.

Exodus:
13:21 ... by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.

Ipuwer:
3:2 Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze... are fastened on the neck of female slaves.

Exodus:
12:35-36 ...and they requested from the Egyptians, silver and gold articles and clothing. And God made the Egyptians favour them and they granted their request. [The Israelites] thus drained Egypt of its wealth.

Hmm. If we remove the supernatural elements of Yahweh, Moses and the Hebrews, ect, we have a curiously similar tale. Ipuwer, however, was written long before Moses, historically speaking, not to mention nearly 1500yrs or more before the Exodus was physically written yet there is no mention of Yahweh, or anyone like Him, let alone Moses, Hebrews, ect.

This is history beyond the Bible.

Regarding Eli's comment about Abraham and taking Sumerian tales with him, though Abraham would have taken these stories, the versions that came to be found in the Bible were themselves more likely much later copies by way of the Babylonians. Remember Nebuchadnezzar II sacking Judea in 597BC? The books of the Torah were written and compiled in the next few centuries that followed. Small world. The greater point about Abraham, being the patriarch of the Hebrews, is that he came from Mesopotamia that has a long history in which there are several parallels to Biblical stories, like the Flood, written thousands of years before.

Here.

Regardless, as swell as it is to think the roots of the first alphabet may have had its origins with Semites from the Levant, not "Hebrews" Ray, it is meaningless as to the veracity of the tale of Moses or the Exodus and as silly as it is deceptive it would be presented as such.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 1746 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 07:56
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 223 Spiros 03-Sep-19 10:50
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 208 MDaines 03-Sep-19 12:59
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 200 drrayeye 03-Sep-19 13:22
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 256 MDaines 03-Sep-19 13:51
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 125 cladking 13-Oct-19 16:08
For those who believe Moses wrote in "pre Hebrew" 156 drrayeye 07-Sep-19 06:52
Re: For those who believe Moses wrote in "pre Hebrew" 161 Spiros 07-Sep-19 07:18
Re: For those who believe Moses wrote in "pre Hebrew" 128 drrayeye 07-Sep-19 17:16
Re: For those who believe Moses wrote in "pre Hebrew" 142 Spiros 07-Sep-19 17:26
Re: For those who believe Moses wrote in "pre Hebrew" 132 drrayeye 09-Sep-19 16:17
Re: For those who believe Moses wrote in "pre Hebrew" 139 Eddie Larry 07-Sep-19 18:13
Re: For those who believe Moses wrote in "pre Hebrew" 142 drrayeye 08-Sep-19 01:44
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 162 Thanos5150 09-Sep-19 17:15
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 148 drrayeye 10-Sep-19 16:34
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 140 Thanos5150 11-Sep-19 15:55
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 144 drrayeye 11-Sep-19 18:06
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 131 Thanos5150 11-Sep-19 23:21
different Patterns of influence 130 drrayeye 12-Sep-19 03:02
Re: different Patterns of influence 133 Thanos5150 12-Sep-19 03:14
Re: different Patterns of influence 156 drrayeye 12-Sep-19 03:42
Seriously? 177 Barbelo 09-Sep-19 22:34
modern psycholinguistic considerations 120 drrayeye 17-Sep-19 20:43
Re: modern psycholinguistic considerations 122 Eddie Larry 17-Sep-19 22:06
further cognitive limits on alphabet construction 121 drrayeye 21-Sep-19 20:07
HW CM Y CN RD THS? 124 drrayeye 24-Sep-19 20:32
Re: HW CM Y CN RD THS? 108 Eddie Larry 24-Sep-19 20:49
Some of the answers 137 drrayeye 25-Sep-19 01:58
Re: Some of the answers 116 Eddie Larry 04-Oct-19 15:01
Re: Some of the answers 105 drrayeye 05-Oct-19 06:01
Hypothesis 108 drrayeye 04-Oct-19 04:26
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 112 seasmith 07-Oct-19 03:37
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 126 seasmith 07-Oct-19 03:44
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 105 drrayeye 08-Oct-19 06:55
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 95 seasmith 10-Oct-19 00:27
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 98 drrayeye 11-Oct-19 03:22
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 96 seasmith 12-Oct-19 01:39
Could you add 92 drrayeye 12-Oct-19 02:14
History of the alphabet 88 Sirfiroth 12-Oct-19 02:59
Re: History of the alphabet 84 drrayeye 12-Oct-19 04:00
Re: History of the alphabet 82 Eddie Larry 12-Oct-19 04:05
Re: History of the alphabet 90 drrayeye 12-Oct-19 06:32
Re: History of the alphabet 92 Eddie Larry 12-Oct-19 14:52
Re: History of the alphabet 87 drrayeye 13-Oct-19 05:06
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 111 cladking 13-Oct-19 02:44
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 116 cladking 13-Oct-19 13:24
Psycholinguistics 82 drrayeye 15-Oct-19 19:36
Re: Psycholinguistics 89 cladking 15-Oct-19 20:17
Re: Psycholinguistics 210 drrayeye 16-Oct-19 01:15
Re: Psycholinguistics 84 cladking 27-Oct-19 14:51
Re: Psycholinguistics 79 drrayeye 03-Nov-19 02:04
Re: Psycholinguistics 65 cladking 03-Nov-19 14:36
Infants, Babies, and young children 67 drrayeye 03-Nov-19 23:02
Re: Infants, Babies, and young children 75 cladking 04-Nov-19 15:10
Re: Infants, Babies, and young children 75 drrayeye 04-Nov-19 17:21
Re: Infants, Babies, and young children 90 cladking 05-Nov-19 01:57
Re: Infants, Babies, and young children 118 drrayeye 05-Nov-19 18:40
Speechery & Glyphery 80 seasmith 03-Nov-19 04:02
Re: Speechery & Glyphery 71 cladking 03-Nov-19 15:02
Sign, symbol, and meaning: linguistic relativity 69 drrayeye 03-Nov-19 23:25
Re: Who invented the first syllabic alphabet? 94 seasmith 13-Oct-19 17:20
Do you have an example of an alphabet that is Not syllabic ? 90 drrayeye 13-Oct-19 22:46
I'm familiar with Rohl 86 drrayeye 13-Oct-19 23:12
Re: I'm familiar with Rohl 92 seasmith 13-Oct-19 23:53
Re: I'm familiar with Rohl 93 drrayeye 14-Oct-19 02:15
Re: I'm familiar with Rohl 96 seasmith 14-Oct-19 18:29
Re: I'm familiar with Rohl 87 drrayeye 14-Oct-19 19:21
Ancient written symbols 94 drrayeye 17-Oct-19 01:01
Summary: part one 91 drrayeye 20-Oct-19 07:12
Re: Summary: part two 86 drrayeye 27-Oct-19 06:36
Re: Summary: part one 84 cladking 27-Oct-19 14:30


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