Mysteries :  The Official GrahamHancock.com forums
For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
Welcome! Log InRegister
Mod Re: [grahamhancock.com]



Apologies for replying to an old discussion, but I though there were some important things that could be said about this subject.

First, I think the cartography (mapping) gets more complicated that has been addressed here. There are different mapping datums that will give different coordinates for the same locations, so how much Munck is off on the coordinates of Stonehenge or anything else involves that subject.

It's my understanding that when the WGS 84 global mapping system was established in 1984, Munck threw out the work he'd done prior to that and started over with WGS 84. The problem with some of Munck's work that follows this is that he doesn't seem to be aware that some of the mapping (UK, Nan Madol, etc) uses a different datum than WGS 84. British mapping for example uses the OSGB36 mapping datum, so to get coordinates for the WGS 84 system requires conversion.

I agree there are also problems with mapping accuracy. Some of the work of necessity is done with 1:50,000 scale mapping where an error the size of the point of a very sharp pencil can have dire consequences on the accuracy. One of the problems with his placement of the Giza pyramids, if not also another case of the wrong datum, is that after scouring all available materials, I wasn't able to find Giza mapping in his publications any more accurate than 1:50,000, which makes it harder to have confidence in his Giza coordinates.

Another aspect of this is that using his system of multiplying degrees x minutes x seconds, a small change in the number of seconds can sometimes have sweeping consequences for the "Grid Latitude" or "Grid Longitude". It can all depend on how large or small a particular value for degrees, minutes, or seconds is.

None of this necessarily means Munck's wrong - if he happened to be right where the Great Pyramid is he could well be right where everything else at Giza is located - but there are some things to take into consideration. Lehner's Giza Plateau Mapping Project book gives coordinates for the Great Pyramid based on an Egyptian mapping agency's benchmark in the Great Pyramid, which didn't seem to match Munck's coordinates, although Lehner's book adds more mud to the water because the distances between the main Giza pyramids deviate greatly from other sources. I'm still very skeptical that Petrie was off by large parts of a mile with these measurements and I'm still not sure where Lehner went wrong that he seems to be. I have asked about that here before and everyone seemed to be just as mystified as I am about it.

Yet another problem is that I don't think anyone has ever accounted for the amount of continental drift that may have taken place since some of these ancient monuments were built, that could change their coordinates over time.

NOW, before everyone throws away their Munck videos in disgust, let's ask what Buildreps should have been asking - IS THERE ANY PART OF MUNCK'S MATERIAL THAT IS SALVAGEABLE? What about his system of numbers itself, even if his cartography is questionable? What about his measurements for the Giza pyramids?

If you look at Munck's materials on Tikal, for example, you'll see some of the same numbers from his questionable mapping schemes posted as physical measurements of the architecture, which is NOT so easily dismissed.

Some of that is here, taken straight from Teobert Maler's measurements with no liberties taken.
[www.viewzone.com]

Right there, the equatorial circumference in modern miles, written in modern feet. Lest that be taken as sheer coincidence, if I'm not sadly mistaken Maler's measurements of El Castillo show the very same thing, only written backwards in reciprocal form.

Maler measured the width of the El Castillo temple platform at 1224 cm. 1224 cm = 40.15748 ft = 1 / 24901.96098 / 10^n

Munck also showed that two of his his favorite numbers, what I call his Squared Munck Megalithic Yard (2.719715671^2) and his "Alternate Pi" 1.177245771 are written in the proportions of the doorway of Temple II at Tikal as if it were a billboard advertising them.

I definitely get the feeling that someone is speaking to us, even if not through map coordinates as Munck thought. What is the conversation about, though, if not monuments telling us "why they are where they are" or telling us where to find other monuments?

To make a long story longer, if anyone is interested in Munck's mathematics, another student of Munck's, archaeocryptographer Michael L. Morton worked extensively with Munck's numbers and achieved a number of innovations, no matter how misguided some of his own work may have been, including identifying the Royal Cubit value of 1.718873385 feet. It's an eminently logical Royal Cubit value because it's directly related to the basic mathematics of the circle, which is a very good guess at what the 2 Pi perimeter/height ratio of the Cheops pyramid is all about. Radius x 2 Pi = Circumference, of course.

Noticing the analogy between the Giza Pyramids and the Orion's Belt stars, at the suggestion of Mary Anne Weaver, Morton set out to develop a celestial counterpart to Munck's terrestrial mapping grid. This too was fraught with data issues, including that Morton used software that gave answers that were not repeatable with other editions of the same software.

However, I believe that he too was on the right track, because it's extremely difficult to deny the importance of astronomy to the ancient monument builders. The right answer may be that rather than being preoccupied with the locations of celestial objects, they were preoccupied with the cycles of celestial objects.

It appears to be relatively easy to find a wealth of references in ancient architecture using measurements in modern feet to Venus' Orbital Period and Synodic Period, which very neatly corresponds to their obvious and well-known preoccupation with Venus and with calendars that attempt to synchronize the cycles of multiple planets.

What I think we can do is take the best of Munck's work and the best of Morton's work, put it all together, and we'll have the right answer.

Munck has also come under fire because his Great Pyramid is at least a good part of a foot shorter than everyone else's, which is why I've inquired here before about the possibility of missing pavement, probably about 3/4 foot thick, that would have reduced the height to the value that Munck gives.

All the same, the proportions of the Great Pyramid without this pavement may also be meaningful, and I'm fairly confident I know what they are. The height without pavement would seem to be 481.0325483 feet, the square of 21.93245423, which is the reciprocal of 0.4559453264, or 45 / (Pi^2). This is important, because this is half of a figure that is one-quarter of a value that can be used to represent the terrestrial year. 4.559453264 x 2 x 4 = 364.7562691, very close to 365. (Munck's numbers have an alternate expression of 365, which is 365.0200808, which he introduced in one of his publications. Both of these values would seem to be valid.

Notice that I am disregarding decimal placement with equations because it doesn't seem to be relevant, and I can cite examples of Mayan Calendar formulas that also show both awareness of, and indifference to, decimal placement.

This was very difficult for me to understand at first - Munck's math prides itself on absolute accuracy, yet we are seeing figures for planetary cycles that lack that kind of accuracy. The key thing here is that we are talking about CALENDARS which tend to inherently lack accuracy, and need correction formulas to compensate for this. We ourselves in everyday practice still tend to regard the year as having 365 days rather than about 365.25.

This is what we see at El Castillo, many people know that there are 91 steps on each of 4 sides and 91 x 4 = 364 and we can add the platform at the top to make 365 - there aren't 365.25 / 4 steps on each side, although we can regard them as being something else, such as 45.59453264 x 2 = 91.18906528 = 364.7562611 = (3600 / (Pi^2), a form easily constructed from basic elements of circular math. (I'd predict that one of the 91 steps is slightly larger than the rest to reflect this, but have not been able to confirm it). It's a good prediction considering some of the math that can be derived from Maler's measurements of the summit.

Here's one that many authors may overlook with El Castillo: 91 steps x 9 terraces = the important Mayan Calendar number 819.

91.18906528 x 9 = 820.7015875. It's not necessarily the best representation of 819, but the flexibility required for it to represent 819 is also seen sometimes in actual Mayan Calendar formulas. 820.7015875 is the reciprocal of a Remen value of 1.218469679, which I call the "Thoth Remen". It's sort of a long story, but Munck tells the tale of how 9 is a symbol of Thoth, 1 / 9 = .1111111111, and .1111111111^2 = .1234567901, almost the exact sequence of numbers in proper order, which according to Munck therefore makes Thoth the "Father of Numbers", which I don't disagree with. .1234567901 x (Pi^2) - 1.218459679, hence the "Thoth Remen".

This "Thoth Remen" seems to be featured in the Great Pyramid in the apothem length, along with a more important version of the Remen, 1.216733603 feet, depending on whether the theoretical missing pavement is in place or not. These seem to relate to the earth's circumference, just as some classical authors described.

I use a formula of (1.216733603 x 24)^3 = 24901.19745, a figure for the earth's circumference in miles more accurate than that of many mapping datums of the last century.

There seem to be a number of ways to extract the earth's circumference from the Great Pyramid. Munck's height 480.3471728 ft x canonical slope angle of "51.84" = 24901.19745.

Also, I obtained a pyramid base / platform ratio for the Great Pyramid of 1.003877284 using Munck's number system and the best data I could find. This turned out to be a root for another formula involving 2 Pi, which the Great Pyramid seems to be a model of

1.003877284 x (2 Pi) x (2 Pi) x (2 Pi) = 249.0119745 = 24901.19745 / 100.

I think what Munck has discovered isn't a map coordinate system, it's a recursive, self-referential system of numbers that is ideally suited for the expression of planetary cycles and geodetic data through architectural proportions.

It's very rare that I get my hands on a decent dataset for any ancient pyramid, but every time I do, it comes out looking like Munck is right on many things having to do with measurement. Fortunately, architectural data for interiors of ancient Mesoamerican structures is easier to come by and I get my mind blown on a daily basis by the mathematical prowess of the ancients. It's as if every room was carefully designed to be a complex mathematical equation that's as data heavy as the Great Pyramid itself.

If I recall correctly, the Pyramid of Niches at El Tajin (Cuaderno de Arquitectura Mesoamericana Issue 8) appears very likely to have a diagonal of 1.622311470 x 10^n feet. It's a little bit data heavy due to what are probably deliberate irregularities, but I was quite pleased to find that. 1.622311470 seems incredible easy to find in the mathematical and architectural landscape of ancient Mesoamerica.

It's almost absurd how easy it is to find a figure representing Venus' Orbital Period of "225 days" with the value 224.8373803 (364.7562611 / 1.622311479) in ancient Mayan architecture. The ratio for the canonical values of 365 and 225 is 365 / 225 = 1.62222222, closer to Munck's 1.622311470 than it is to Phi 1.618033989. (1.622311470 is also the ratio between Munck's 365.0200808 and the canonical Venus value of 225).

For what it's worth, we can find such a variety of measurements in ancient Mesoamerican structures to completely defeat the idea that they were using simple values of any metrological unit.

For anyone interested, some of the most important numbers I use to analyze unfamiliar numbers seen in architectural data are Pi, 2 Pi, 360, the Radian (360 / (2 Pi) = 57.2577951), and Munck's introductions 1.177245771, 1.622311470 (4/3 of a Remen of 1.216733603), and his (squared) Megalithic Yard of (2.719715671^2). 1.177245771, 1.622311470 and (2.719715671^2) are among those that can often operate well at higher powers, revealing more data.

(Munck's value for the inner sarcen circle radius of Stonehenge, (sqrt 240) x (Pi) = 48.66934411, is 40 of these Remens, but the value is much more interesting in modern feet). Munck's Megalithic Yard of 2.719715671 is a curiosity in that it does not belong to his system of numbers until it's squared. I also find a Meg Yard of 2.720174976 at Stonehenge for the exterior of the sarcen circle, using the number of Meg Yards specified by Thom. The ratio between the inner and outer values is then 1.067438159, an extremely important number that I have never seen Munck publish, but it was hiding all along not only in his geographic values for the Giza Pyramids, but as the ratio between the base measurements of the Great Pyramid and the Chephren Pyramid.

The more we see data begin to flow - that is, the more time we can multiply or divide number A by number B to find important and familiar numbers, not only A x B, but A x (B^2), A x (B^3), A x (B^4) and etc, the more the system is living up to its purpose of data storage.

If anything makes Buildreps a troll, in my opinion it isn't that he can find fault with some of Munck's ideas, that's easy enough to do - it's that Buildreps didn't stop to ask if Munck was still offering us anything real in spite of those faults, before telling us that Munck was nothing but bunk. I certainly disagree with that sentiment.



Mod Edit: Split Off-Topic Post and Replies from Existing Topic and add Reference Link/Dr. Troglodyte



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 27-Sep-19 01:48 by thinkitover.

Options: ReplyQuote


Subject Views Written By Posted
Carl Munck's Code: Measures vs Maps 2642 thinkitover 11-Aug-19 11:21
Geodesy at Giza and Tikal 386 thinkitover 11-Aug-19 12:09
Megalithic Metrology and Miscellany 358 thinkitover 11-Aug-19 19:12
Re: "The Code" of Carl Munck 405 Dr. Troglodyte 11-Aug-19 14:05
Re: "The Code" of Carl Munck 365 thinkitover 12-Aug-19 17:24
Re: "The Code" of Carl Munck 262 Buildreps 25-Sep-19 07:06
Are You Serious? 258 thinkitover 25-Sep-19 18:33
Re: Of course I'm serious 245 Buildreps 25-Sep-19 20:31
Dear Dr. Buildreps 251 thinkitover 26-Sep-19 06:34
Re: Dear Dr. Buildreps 264 Sirfiroth 26-Sep-19 12:55
Re: Frenzy Calculator 255 Buildreps 26-Sep-19 16:18
If Simple Answers Will Suffice... 247 thinkitover 26-Sep-19 23:42
Mod Note > Off-Topic Posts and Replies Split 239 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Sep-19 22:59
Initial Steps of Revising the Mycerinus 321 thinkitover 15-Aug-19 04:04
Re: "The Code" of Carl Munck 342 Sirfiroth 15-Aug-19 15:30
Home Ec Papyrus Found - Great Pyramid Built by Pastry Chefs? 310 thinkitover 18-Aug-19 19:11
Re: "The Code" of Carl Munck 486 Sirfiroth 19-Aug-19 13:42
Why not ask Giza's chief architect directly? 299 Jiri Mruzek 20-Aug-19 00:00
My time machine is broken!............................. 295 Sirfiroth 20-Aug-19 02:11
What you need is a record player, not a time machine!s 285 Jiri Mruzek 20-Aug-19 03:55
Re: "The Code" of Carl Munck 279 thinkitover 22-Aug-19 18:56
An Anecdote from Schoch's "Voyages": An Ancient Number Puzzle? 300 thinkitover 22-Aug-19 19:21
Re: "The Code" of Carl Munck 284 Sirfiroth 22-Aug-19 23:36
Mod Note > Off-Topic Posts and Replies Split and Merged 230 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Sep-19 23:10
Miscellaneous Cubits with Geodetic Relationships 360 thinkitover 19-Aug-19 03:01
1.424280287: The Story Of A Number So Far 324 thinkitover 19-Aug-19 08:40
A "Munck Version of 7" and the "Thoth Cubit" 327 thinkitover 23-Aug-19 01:25
Re: "The Code" of Carl Munck 296 Sirfiroth 23-Aug-19 05:05
a measurement dictates both its exact, and rounded out values 346 Jiri Mruzek 23-Aug-19 05:15
1.021521079 and 1.025135528: A Tale of Two Numbers 305 thinkitover 23-Aug-19 05:29
First Efforts With a Nubian Pyramid 311 thinkitover 23-Aug-19 21:38
Re: First Efforts With a Nubian Pyramid 240 thinkitover 24-Sep-19 20:06
Mean Sarcen Circle Values and Flattened Ring Types 314 thinkitover 26-Aug-19 11:23
Smaller Than a Human Hair? 291 Buildreps 26-Aug-19 14:32
Re: Smaller Than a Human Hair? 288 thinkitover 29-Aug-19 21:51
Petrie's Stonehenge Unit = Venus Orbital Period? 332 thinkitover 29-Aug-19 23:53
Whatever Happened to the "D&M"? 266 thinkitover 30-Aug-19 01:35
Inscribing The Cheops and Missing Section (Pyramidion?) 279 thinkitover 30-Aug-19 04:24
Re: Smaller Than a Human Hair? 267 Dr. Troglodyte 30-Aug-19 15:31
Math Without a Calculator 277 thinkitover 31-Aug-19 08:00
Re: Finding pi 289 molder 31-Aug-19 10:42
Inscribing Pyramids, Revising the Mycerinus and Correcting Thom 281 thinkitover 10-Sep-19 09:35
Teti's Pyramidion? (Part 1) 271 thinkitover 10-Sep-19 11:20
Teti's Pyramidion? (Part 2) 277 thinkitover 10-Sep-19 13:13
Re: "The Code" of Carl Munck 266 Buildreps 10-Sep-19 13:20
The Problem of G1-d (and the Teti Enclosure) 277 thinkitover 10-Sep-19 18:13
"Pi Numbers" and "Square Root Numbers" 253 thinkitover 10-Sep-19 20:07
Re: "The Code" of Carl Munck 257 Sirfiroth 10-Sep-19 20:20
The Many Cubits of Flinders Petrie 270 thinkitover 10-Sep-19 21:23
Re: "The Code" of Carl Munck 277 Dr. Troglodyte 10-Sep-19 22:12
I think I see your problem 274 Sirfiroth 11-Sep-19 04:48
The Royal Cubit, an Ancient Foot, and Petrie 259 thinkitover 14-Sep-19 10:00
The Interior of the Mycerinus Pyramid 262 thinkitover 14-Sep-19 10:27
Mod Note > thinkitover - Threaded vs. Flat View 256 Dr. Troglodyte 14-Sep-19 14:19
Which Whole Numbers Belong to Munck's Math? 249 thinkitover 14-Sep-19 14:21
The "Ellifino" and the Venus Cycle 254 thinkitover 14-Sep-19 14:50
Another Way Of Looking At It? 216 thinkitover 16-Nov-19 20:33
Re: The Royal Cubit, an Ancient Foot, and Petrie 278 Sirfiroth 16-Sep-19 20:12
A-Trolling We Will Go... 238 thinkitover 16-Sep-19 20:54
Re: A-Trolling We Will Go... 254 Sirfiroth 16-Sep-19 23:01
Is 1.067438159 ft a Metrological Unit? 255 thinkitover 14-Sep-19 13:09
Which Cubit When and Experiments with G2-a 312 thinkitover 14-Sep-19 18:09
Verner's Measures for G1-c Hold A Geodetic Surprise? 277 thinkitover 16-Sep-19 14:18
How Much of Khentkawes II's Pyramidion Do We Have? 260 thinkitover 16-Sep-19 15:40
Verner's Data for G1-b: More Surprises? 272 thinkitover 16-Sep-19 16:47
Re: Verner's Data for G1-b: More Surprises? 278 Sirfiroth 16-Sep-19 22:53
Musings on Possible Ancient Forms of Phi 329 thinkitover 16-Sep-19 19:34
More on Rio Bec Including A Slight Correction on "Rio Bec Phi" 251 thinkitover 03-Nov-19 07:58
More on Rio Bec, Phi-Related Numbers, and Planets 221 thinkitover 06-Nov-19 13:52
More Random Notes from "Workshop" on Planetary Values and Ratios 194 thinkitover 07-Nov-19 17:40
Some Speculation on the Tholos at Delphi 263 thinkitover 17-Sep-19 02:31
An Initial Finding at the Parthenon? 252 thinkitover 20-Sep-19 18:19
Will The Real Artemision Please Stand Up? 249 thinkitover 20-Sep-19 20:53
Musings on Ancient Greek Architecture 240 thinkitover 23-Sep-19 09:32
Pyramid Near Argos 254 thinkitover 23-Sep-19 09:51
On Tikal's Temple Doors 260 thinkitover 23-Sep-19 23:22
The Aztec Sun Stone 302 thinkitover 25-Sep-19 03:09
The Aztec Tizoc Stone and Some Time/Motion Formulas 274 thinkitover 26-Sep-19 06:28
Some Similar Formulas in Mayan Architecture? (w notes on Stonehenge) 268 thinkitover 28-Sep-19 23:17
Mod Caution > thinkitover 248 Dr. Troglodyte 27-Sep-19 00:21
Thank You, Dr. Troglodyte 272 thinkitover 27-Sep-19 01:47
Remeasuring The Great Pyramid in a Different Cubit 286 thinkitover 23-Aug-19 19:48
Pyramidion of G3-a: First Guesses 240 thinkitover 05-Oct-19 12:05
On Smaller Ancient Egyptian Units Of Measure 289 thinkitover 05-Oct-19 13:39
Recent Observations on Greek and Nubian Sites 261 thinkitover 05-Oct-19 16:57
Toward a More Complete Picture of G3-a 283 thinkitover 07-Oct-19 05:16
On The El Castillo Calendar Pyramid at Chichen Itza, and sqrt 60 262 thinkitover 11-Oct-19 19:55
The Design of Timekeeping: El Castillo and the Bent Pyramid 344 thinkitover 18-Oct-19 17:54
A Comment on Petrie's Season in Egypt 220 thinkitover 18-Oct-19 20:07
Re: The Design of Timekeeping: El Castillo and the Bent Pyramid 278 molder 19-Oct-19 01:18
Re: The Design of Timekeeping: El Castillo and the Bent Pyramid 228 molder 24-Oct-19 21:21
So What Was Is It All For Exactly? 383 thinkitover 14-Oct-19 12:38
The Great Pyramid's Platform 275 thinkitover 27-Oct-19 10:31
Great Pyramid Platform Diagonals - A First Attempt 219 thinkitover 28-Oct-19 07:43
56767.92298 Or Not? - An Unsolved Mayan Mystery 230 thinkitover 28-Oct-19 09:03
Tikal's "Bat Palace" and Some Mayan Miscellany 219 thinkitover 06-Nov-19 11:29
Re: Tikal's "Bat Palace" and Some Mayan Miscellany 234 Sirfiroth 06-Nov-19 23:52
What Forms Should Evidence Take? 243 thinkitover 07-Nov-19 12:42
Re: What Forms Should Evidence Take? 240 Sirfiroth 07-Nov-19 15:23
Re: What Forms Should Evidence Take? Pyramid of Sun 207 molder 07-Nov-19 20:26
Earth Commensurate Mensuration 313 Dr. Troglodyte 07-Nov-19 22:57
Re: Earth Commensurate Mensuration 330 molder 09-Nov-19 10:45
Seeing a Treeā€¦the Forest Eludes 226 Dr. Troglodyte 09-Nov-19 16:54
Some New "Annoyances" and "The Power of sqrt 60" 206 thinkitover 08-Nov-19 17:56
Mayan Sites Balche and Almulchil Tying Into Some Recent Work? 207 thinkitover 10-Nov-19 15:16
Re: Mayan Sites Balche and Almulchil Tying Into Some Recent Work? 204 molder 11-Nov-19 10:54
Red Queen's Sarcophagus - Data Might Be Out There Somewhere? 203 thinkitover 11-Nov-19 16:10
Re: Red Queen's Sarcophagus - Data Might Be Out There Somewhere? 222 molder 12-Nov-19 10:46
New Misadventures at Teotihuacan 194 thinkitover 10-Nov-19 23:29
Quetzalcoatl Pyramid: More Possibilities? (Postscript Added) 210 thinkitover 11-Nov-19 20:43
6.307546992 Is Part of the 2 Pi Geodetic Series 193 thinkitover 15-Nov-19 22:08
In The Shadow Of Tikal? 327 thinkitover 01-Nov-19 08:59
Topoxte and Naranjo: Digging Deeper (w Notes on Stonehenge Added) 256 thinkitover 02-Nov-19 07:09
The Red Pyramid, A Layman's Follies 203 thinkitover 16-Nov-19 03:57
More Metrological Musings 198 thinkitover 18-Nov-19 06:18
More Metrological Musings, Part Two 202 thinkitover 18-Nov-19 10:41
Re: More Metrological Musings 213 molder 18-Nov-19 18:45
Red Pyramid and Sneferu's Pyramid Preliminaries / "Great Pyramid Displaced Apex" 239 thinkitover 21-Nov-19 08:05
Vesica Piscis and Ancient Metrology 198 thinkitover 24-Nov-19 04:17
The Area of Stonehenge Thus Far 218 thinkitover 24-Nov-19 09:50
Geodetic Measures and Nippur Cubit (reply to post from Remen : Meridian thread) 235 thinkitover 25-Nov-19 06:43
What on Earth is a Polar Pole? 267 thinkitover 25-Nov-19 07:32
Mod Caution > thinkitover - Blog + Calculations 219 Dr. Troglodyte 25-Nov-19 21:45
Luke Piwalker's Blog 201 thinkitover 29-Nov-19 08:38
Blog Updates 198 thinkitover 10-Dec-19 07:26
Re: Blog Updates 206 DavidK 12-Dec-19 22:41
Re: Blog Updates 185 thinkitover 24-Dec-19 15:00
Blog Update Link (Bookmark) 179 thinkitover 05-Jan-20 01:55
Latest Updates 208 thinkitover 24-Jan-20 19:08


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.