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hendrik dirker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> In the words of Alan H. Gardiner, Journal of
> Egyptian Archaeology
, 1925: "...what
> ambition could have fired Khufu more than
> to possess in his own pyramid a replica of
> the mysterious chambers in the hoary sanctuary of
> the god of Wisdom..?"
>
> The sanctuary... of the god of Wisdom, no
> less... Secret chambers (in the famous
> world heritage monument) undiscovered,
> invaluable treasure...
>
> "...Khufu was seeking for details concerning
> the secret chambers of the primeval sanctuary of
> Thoth
.."
>
> The PapyrusWestcar is potent - an epic.
>
> ps. For what its worth, the time Giza is designed
> for is 1250 B.C.

Hi Hendrik,

Here, I dissent from Gardiner's view, being informed by the excellent paper by Berrgren. You see the chamber interpretation is just one such interpretation of the phrase Ipwt. Berrgren presents multiple possible alternative translations and reveiws them from various perspectives. The approach Berrgren has taken is to review the roots of the word and there are two possible roots:
on p12: "ip means to 1) count, reckon up, make reckoning (with), assess (dues), pay, allot (to), exact (from), detail (s’one for work), claim (from), examine (persons), recognize (s’one), revise (schedules), take heed of, set in order (bones of decapitated body), muster, assemble (of persons)."
on p22 "ipt meaning an enclosed space"

So a valid interpretation is that Khufu is seeking the numbers from the accounts of the House of Thoth in the inventory of Heliopolis. Khufu wants to use these numbers in his Horizon (aka Pyramid).

This leads to the question what is the House of Thoth. Boylan p83 argues “The ancient Egyptians were an agricultural people. They were interested, therefore, in setting up an exact calendar. The moon would naturally play a chief part in fixing the details of the calendar. The easily observed regularity of the moon’s phases furnished a better basis for marking of periods of time than the variations of solar phenomena. Hence at a very early period in Egypt, as elsewhere, the moon was taken as the chief measurer of time.” and on p84 "But, as we have seen, Thoth is Iooh, the moon."

There are a great many cultures which operate a lunar calendar. Perhaps the most famous is the Chinese Lunar New Year. In the Chinese Zodiac, the asterism or constellation that the moon is sitting in determines which "animal" the year represents. The Egyptians had a similar calendar, based on the Decan stars. A house of Thoth therefore could be the house (or station/palace) of the moon meaning the constellation or asterism which is housing the moon at a specific time.

Thus, my interpretation is that Khufu is seeking the numbers from the accounts of the House of Thoth (stations of the moon). Those numbers are kept in a chest in the inventory of Heliopolis, a city known for its star-gazing priests. Khufu wants to use these numbers in his Horizon (aka Pyramid) in some way.

The reckoning up or exacting from interpretation could also refer to measurements of some kind.

Regards,
BC

Berrgren, Jenny, “The ‘Ipwt in Papyrus Westcar (7,5-8; 9,1-5)”, Uppsala University Department of Archeology and Ancient History accessed from [web.archive.org]

Boylan, Patrick “Thoth, the Hermes of Egypt : a study of some aspects of theological thought in ancient Egypt” accessed from [archive.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13-Aug-19 12:40 by engbren.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 3394 engbren 25-Jul-19 13:03
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 233 cladking 25-Jul-19 14:04
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 155 engbren 28-Jul-19 08:05
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 148 engbren 26-Jul-19 15:04
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 124 engbren 01-Aug-19 13:52
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 122 engbren 02-Aug-19 06:37
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 147 engbren 28-Jul-19 12:28
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 163 GramPong 02-Aug-19 14:33
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 143 engbren 03-Aug-19 05:33
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 124 GramPong 03-Aug-19 13:41
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 115 engbren 04-Aug-19 04:41
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 129 GramPong 04-Aug-19 12:30
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 121 engbren 04-Aug-19 23:01
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 110 GramPong 05-Aug-19 07:49
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 154 engbren 05-Aug-19 10:15
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 127 engbren 07-Aug-19 13:16
Unlocking the punch-line 163 hendrik dirker 10-Aug-19 08:59
Re: Unlocking the punch-line 152 engbren 10-Aug-19 09:35
Re: Unlocking the punch-line 102 engbren 11-Aug-19 23:00
Re: Unlocking the punch-line 122 hendrik dirker 12-Aug-19 14:23
Re: Unlocking the punch-line 103 engbren 12-Aug-19 22:40
The plot & motive 113 hendrik dirker 13-Aug-19 10:56
Re: The plot & motive 106 engbren 13-Aug-19 12:10
Re: The plot & motive 121 hendrik dirker 13-Aug-19 14:04
Re: The plot & motive 103 engbren 13-Aug-19 23:04
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 105 engbren 12-Aug-19 13:17
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 108 engbren 15-Aug-19 12:20
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 106 engbren 19-Aug-19 11:50
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 104 engbren 22-Aug-19 09:18
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 101 Spiros 23-Aug-19 14:56
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 94 engbren 23-Aug-19 23:41
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 102 Spiros 24-Aug-19 06:16
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 111 engbren 24-Aug-19 10:52
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 102 Spiros 26-Aug-19 09:28
Egyptian seasons in the Phaistos disk 105 Spiros 26-Aug-19 09:55
Is Sopdet Involved? 73 engbren 13-Sep-19 11:45
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 84 Spiros 13-Sep-19 13:47
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 86 engbren 13-Sep-19 23:54
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 83 Spiros 15-Sep-19 06:54
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 75 engbren 16-Sep-19 12:16
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 58 Glass Jigsaw 28-Sep-19 17:54
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 73 engbren 29-Sep-19 09:08
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 122 engbren 27-Aug-19 08:07
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 99 Spiros 29-Aug-19 05:56
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 105 engbren 29-Aug-19 08:46
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 75 Spiros 07-Sep-19 04:07
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 76 engbren 08-Sep-19 02:32
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 66 Spiros 08-Sep-19 14:18
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 90 engbren 28-Aug-19 13:57
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 98 engbren 30-Aug-19 13:06
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 89 engbren 31-Aug-19 12:35
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 110 Spiros 31-Aug-19 19:21
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 77 engbren 04-Sep-19 13:49
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 62 Spiros 07-Sep-19 04:36
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 76 engbren 07-Sep-19 11:35
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 79 Spiros 08-Sep-19 14:50
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 44 engbren 27-Oct-19 12:21
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 47 Spiros 29-Oct-19 13:20
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 42 engbren 29-Oct-19 19:21
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 38 Spiros 30-Oct-19 18:22
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 33 engbren 30-Oct-19 19:29
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 44 Spiros 30-Oct-19 19:59
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 43 Glass Jigsaw 30-Oct-19 13:00
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 41 Spiros 31-Oct-19 15:19
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 40 Glass Jigsaw 31-Oct-19 16:16
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 78 drew 05-Sep-19 04:06
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 77 Spiros 05-Sep-19 06:31
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 85 engbren 05-Sep-19 09:26
Re: 1/14 of Osiris 72 drew 06-Sep-19 00:11
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 77 Spiros 07-Sep-19 05:03
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 68 engbren 06-Sep-19 00:44
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 76 drew 06-Sep-19 01:47
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 74 engbren 06-Sep-19 07:45
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 73 drew 06-Sep-19 08:14
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 71 engbren 06-Sep-19 08:39
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 85 engbren 06-Sep-19 09:02
The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 102 engbren 09-Sep-19 12:21
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 80 Spiros 09-Sep-19 15:40
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 91 Glass Jigsaw 09-Sep-19 20:13
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 84 engbren 10-Sep-19 05:52
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 76 Glass Jigsaw 10-Sep-19 10:54
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 70 engbren 11-Sep-19 13:14
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 90 Glass Jigsaw 11-Sep-19 14:37
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 80 drew 13-Sep-19 04:04
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 74 engbren 13-Sep-19 09:24
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 76 drew 13-Sep-19 10:46
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 72 Glass Jigsaw 13-Sep-19 11:21
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 69 drew 13-Sep-19 11:52
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 76 Glass Jigsaw 13-Sep-19 12:09
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 69 engbren 22-Sep-19 12:32
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 68 cladking 22-Sep-19 13:15
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 92 Glass Jigsaw 22-Sep-19 14:02
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 68 engbren 23-Sep-19 00:42
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 84 Spiros 23-Sep-19 02:54
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 63 Glass Jigsaw 23-Sep-19 10:43
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 58 Spiros 23-Sep-19 13:20
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 59 Glass Jigsaw 23-Sep-19 13:58
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 60 Spiros 23-Sep-19 17:30
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 65 Glass Jigsaw 23-Sep-19 23:51
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 60 Spiros 24-Sep-19 17:41
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 61 Glass Jigsaw 24-Sep-19 22:26
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 69 Spiros 25-Sep-19 13:39
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 71 Glass Jigsaw 25-Sep-19 15:15
The Age of Pisces 98 hendrik dirker 28-Sep-19 08:36
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 77 drew 25-Sep-19 00:49
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 65 Glass Jigsaw 25-Sep-19 11:34
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 57 Glass Jigsaw 25-Sep-19 12:29
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 51 engbren 22-Oct-19 11:07
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 60 Glass Jigsaw 22-Oct-19 14:18
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 43 engbren 25-Oct-19 11:06
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 43 drew 23-Oct-19 23:51
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 45 Glass Jigsaw 24-Oct-19 00:20
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 50 engbren 25-Oct-19 05:57
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 40 engbren 28-Oct-19 20:48
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 40 Glass Jigsaw 28-Oct-19 23:23
Astrological signs with human and creature idioms.... 42 Itatw70s 02-Nov-19 00:15
Re: Astrological signs with human and creature idioms.... 56 Glass Jigsaw 02-Nov-19 01:35
Re: Astrological signs with human and creature idioms.... 47 Itatw70s 02-Nov-19 13:45
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 107 Glass Jigsaw 07-Sep-19 12:03
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 121 cladking 07-Sep-19 14:07
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 33 Itatw70s 02-Nov-19 14:20
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 44 Glass Jigsaw 02-Nov-19 14:56
Khnum Khufu 87 engbren 08-Sep-19 13:11
Re: Khnum Khufu 94 Spiros 08-Sep-19 14:46
Trimming away unnecessary observations... 108 drew 09-Sep-19 00:30
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 106 drew 11-Sep-19 03:31
The moon and number 41 105 engbren 11-Sep-19 13:19
Re: The moon and number 41 58 thinkitover 23-Oct-19 05:48
Re: The moon and number 41 47 Glass Jigsaw 23-Oct-19 16:18
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 49 engbren 24-Oct-19 09:51
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 51 Glass Jigsaw 24-Oct-19 11:32
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 63 engbren 25-Oct-19 03:27
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 63 gulsbo 25-Oct-19 19:43
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 66 engbren 29-Oct-19 08:55
Some Random Ideas... 60 thinkitover 01-Nov-19 00:19
Re: Some Random Ideas... 40 engbren 03-Nov-19 21:47
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 57 engbren 04-Nov-19 12:26
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 55 engbren 16-Nov-19 12:02
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 34 Glass Jigsaw 27-Nov-19 00:59
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 41 Sirfiroth 27-Nov-19 04:47
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 38 magisterchessmutt 27-Nov-19 05:45
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 29 Sirfiroth 27-Nov-19 17:34
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 26 magisterchessmutt 28-Nov-19 00:38
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 32 Sirfiroth 28-Nov-19 01:29
Deleted n/t 31 cladking 27-Nov-19 12:33
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 34 engbren 02-Dec-19 12:09


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